Pascal's Wager Argument

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Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*Because they mistake religion for God. *

That would seem to me a shallow-minded mistake.

jon, as a Catholic, how would you address their mistake? 😃
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Not really, Some promote that we have to have unquestionable devotion to religion, rather than God. Religion is a tool to help us reach God. The tool serves man, man doesn’t serve the tool. Show them their rejection of God is a rejection of metaphorical language not God, look deeper.

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 2:12[/BIBLEDRB]
 
jonfawkes

Show them their rejection of God is a rejection of metaphorical language not God, look deeper.

Definitely look deeper. But I’m afraid without religion they have lost the tool for digging deeper.

A natural theology is possible, but it is really useless so far as Christ is concerned.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

How do they find Christ without going through the Church?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

Show them their rejection of God is a rejection of metaphorical language not God, look deeper.

Definitely look deeper. But I’m afraid without religion they have lost the tool for digging deeper.

A natural theology is possible, but it is really useless so far as Christ is concerned.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

How do they find Christ without going through the Church?
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You misunderstand. Religion is a tool. I didn’t say don’t use it. It’s useful. Use it when you need it. Religion serves the man, not man serves the religion.
 
jonfawkes

*Religion serves the man, not man serves the religion. *

But if religion is a tool for finding God, why does the atheist confuse God with religion?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*Religion serves the man, not man serves the religion. *

But if religion is a tool for finding God, why does the atheist confuse God with religion?
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Good Question - It’s like getting mad at a sign post.
 
jonfawkes

*Good Question - It’s like getting mad at a sign post. *

Especially a signpost that might point the way to hell. 😉
 
jonfawkes said:
You misunderstand. Religion is a tool. I didn’t say don’t use it. It’s useful. Use it when you need it. Religion serves the man, not man serves the religion.
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I think it is you who misunderstands. Who told you religion is a tool? All of the definitions I have seen come down to the fact that religion is the way humans choose to worship God.
 
davidv said:
I think it is you who misunderstands. Who told you religion is a tool? All of the definitions I have seen come down to the fact that religion is the way humans choose to worship God.
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Where do we differ? It is a tool to prepare ourselves to worship God. 🤷
 
Religion is a signpost. It points us to heaven and it points us to hell.

For the atheist, it points him to hell.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Religion is a signpost. It points us to heaven and it points us to hell.

For the atheist, it points him to hell.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
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How does Religion lead the Atheist to Hell?
 
*How does Religion lead the Atheist to Hell? *

It doesn’t lead, it points. The atheist will lead himself to hell by his own choice.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
 
Charlemagne_II said:
*How does Religion lead the Atheist to Hell? *

It doesn’t lead, it points. The atheist will lead himself to hell by his own choice.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33
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Still don’t get it - how does religion point to hell?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*Still don’t get it - how does religion point to hell? *

You say you are Catholic. Did you never hear of hell? :confused:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1034

Do you accept the teachings of the Church or do you repudiate them?
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I know what hell is. How does religion point the way to hell? I thought it was a way/path/tool to worship God, not reject Him.

If you chose not to take the path that has been cleared, your journey is more difficult, but not impossible. Rejection of religion isn’t a rejection of God. Atheism is a rejection of God.
 
jonfawkes, you are exquisitely delicate in your splitting of hairs. 😃

Since rejection of the religion Christ gave us is rejection of Christ, who is God, rejecting his religion is rejecting God. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Rejecting Christ’s teachings (the religion He founded) is rejecting Him.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

FROM THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.

Do you agree with this or do you disagree?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes, you are exquisitely delicate in your splitting of hairs. 😃

Since rejection of the religion Christ gave us is rejection of Christ, who is God, rejecting his religion is rejecting God. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Rejecting Christ’s teachings (the religion He founded) is rejecting Him.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

FROM THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.

Do you agree with this or do you disagree?
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Ah! I understand why atheists confuse religion for God, so do theists. 😉

Catholicism isn’t Jesus, The Father or the Holy Spirit. It is the path that has been loving laid before us. It will guide you to God. To go bushwacking isn’t a rejection of God.

We don’t (or at least I don’t) worship the Church, we worship The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God made everything, not just the Church. You don’t worship trees. You don’t worship mountains, or the sea or other men. All His creation leads us to Him.
 
jonfawkes

*We don’t (or at least I don’t) worship the Church, we worship The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. *

You’re kidding me! 😃

Evasive as ever, I see. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
jonfawkes

*We don’t (or at least I don’t) worship the Church, we worship The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. *

You’re kidding me! 😃

Evasive as ever, I see. 😉
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How so? The Church is here to serve, to facilitate man’s salvation. We don’t worship the Church. We worship God. If the Church ceased to exist, God still remains. Seems straight forward to me. 🤷
 
***If the Church ceased to exist, God still remains. Seems straight forward to me. ***

The Church has been defined as the Body of Christ on earth. Reject the Church and you reject the Body of Christ. Christ is God. Reject the Church and you reject God. Did he come to die for nothing, to set up a social club that men could reject with impunity?

I really don’t know how to make it any simpler than that.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12
 
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