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buffalo
Guest
Not true - but your mind and heart have to be open to Him. He does this experientially and personally.
Amputees are not diseased. In any case we do have witness that God can heal amputees in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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Amputees are not diseased. In any case we do have witness that God can heal amputees in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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Ender
Guest
You accept that free will has consequences but you complain, if those consequences are negative, that you are being punished. If you are warned not to play near the cliff but freely choose to go there you are not justified in complaining that you are being punished if you fall off.The central part of your religion is NOT to “accept” god. It is to accept a certain “type” of God, that …will condem you…through your own choice, if you do not accept him.
Yes, free will has consequences.
You choose to “reject” God, then you “choose” punishment. After all…it is your choic.
You cannot become human while the weight of Punishments is held over you. You are simply a beast, making a choice because you will be punished or rewarded for it.
The other sense of punishment - as you use it - exists as well but do we believe that a thief is justified in complaining about being punished when he is caught and sentenced or do we consider this an appropriate application of justice? If we don’t consider punishment for transgressions in this world unjust why should we consider it unjust for them to be applied in the next life (assuming there is one)? It is a question of dignity that man bears the consequences of his choices.
Ender
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Leela
Guest
Are you talking about the 2000 year old story of an ear reattachment?Not true - but your mind and heart have to be open to Him. He does this experientially and personally.
Amputees are not diseased. In any case we do have witness that God can heal amputees in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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buffalo
Guest
Yes.Are you talking about the 2000 year old story of an ear reattachment?
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Leela
Guest
If you believe the Bible, then sure, God used to do all kinds of such miracles, but we don’t have any credible modern examples of miracles on a scale that would be interesting and unambiguous. Christians generally argue that God chooses not to, say, change all the faces in Mt Rushmore to those of the last four Popes, because then we wouldn’t need faith to believe in God and that whould somehow be problem for God. Apparently he doesn’t want us to have clear evidence to help us believe in him. He’d prefer that we believe based on more ambiguous evidence.Yes.
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buffalo
Guest
If God stood in front of you today would you kneel down and worship Him?If you believe the Bible, then sure, God used to do all kinds of such miracles, but we don’t have any credible modern examples of miracles on a scale that would be interesting and unambiguous. Christians generally argue that God chooses not to, say, change all the faces in Mt Rushmore to those of the last four Popes, because then we wouldn’t need faith to believe in God and that whould somehow be problem for God. Apparently he doesn’t want us to have clear evidence to help us believe in him. He’d prefer that we believe based on more ambiguous evidence.
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Leela
Guest
I can’t make any sense of God standing or taking any human posture, and I can’t see how “worship” would be the appropriate response.If God stood in front of you today would you kneel down and worship Him?
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buffalo
Guest
Fair enough - What would be the appropriate response?I can’t make any sense of God standing or taking any human posture, and I can’t see how “worship” would be the appropriate response.
WASSUP?
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Ender
Guest
I once had a conversation with my brother about miracles where he said he wouldn’t believe in them if he stood in front of the burning bush. They were in his opinion simply events for which there was not yet a scientific explanation. That is, there can be no credible modern examples of miracles because miracles are impossible regardless of their evidence.If you believe the Bible, then sure, God used to do all kinds of such miracles, but we don’t have any credible modern examples of miracles on a scale that would be interesting and unambiguous.
Have you actually looked for evidence of miracles? It’s not that hard to find some - just Google miracles +lourdes for one example. The inexplicable is not necessarily the miraculous but there are any number of scientifically inexplicable events which, unless you ascribe to my brother’s definition, look suspiciously like miracles. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck we should at least entertain the possibility that it really is a duck.
Ender
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Leela
Guest
My questions would probably begin with Why?..Fair enough - What would be the appropriate response?
WASSUP?
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buffalo
Guest
Will you share a few?My questions would probably begin with Why?..
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Leela
Guest
All those crutches and braces and wheelchairs, and yet, not a single glass eye, toupee, or prosthetic limb…Have you actually looked for evidence of miracles? It’s not that hard to find some - just Google miracles +lourdes for one example.
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buffalo
Guest
Why does that surprise you so?All those crutches and braces and wheelchairs, and yet, not a single glass eye, toupee, or prosthetic limb…
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Leela
Guest
It doesn’t surprise me one bit.Why does that surprise you so?
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greylorn
Guest
Do you make any distinctions between the inexplicable and the genuinely miraculous? If so, might the distinctions simply be a matter of who has what level of technology?I once had a conversation with my brother about miracles where he said he wouldn’t believe in them if he stood in front of the burning bush. They were in his opinion simply events for which there was not yet a scientific explanation. That is, there can be no credible modern examples of miracles because miracles are impossible regardless of their evidence.
Have you actually looked for evidence of miracles? It’s not that hard to find some - just Google miracles +lourdes for one example. The inexplicable is not necessarily the miraculous but there are any number of scientifically inexplicable events which, unless you ascribe to my brother’s definition, look suspiciously like miracles. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck we should at least entertain the possibility that it really is a duck.
Ender
For example, a Zippo lighter might amaze primitive natives who’d never seen a white man. A time traveler from the 20th century with a knapsack full of gadgets and a .357 could have given Jesus Christ some serious competition, if time-travel was possible.
If someone knows how to do something, the doing of it cannot be a miracle. Surely Christ knew how to cure lepers and kill fig trees, so these cannot be true miracles— unless you regard advanced knowledge and superior technology as miraculous.
In the context of these considerations, the most magnificent of miracles— the creation of the universe itself, is not. After all, God knew how to do it.
The only absolute miracle is the existence of God Himself, unless He know how He came into being or can explain why He always existed, whatever the truth may be.
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buffalo
Guest
So because God has not acceded to your demand for proof in growing back limbs you do not believe in Him. Is this where you are hung up?It doesn’t surprise me one bit.
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Leela
Guest
I don’t make any demands of God since I don’t believe in God. I’m just thinking that if God exists and wants me to believe in Him, he would give me some clear evidence instead of such “miracles” with ambiguous evidence.So because God has not acceded to your demand for proof in growing back limbs you do not believe in Him. Is this where you are hung up?
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buffalo
Guest
Ahhhh - you have just stumbled on the test. Faith, not proof is required. Beyond that we have to look at Revelation for His claims.I don’t make any demands of God since I don’t believe in God. I’m just thinking that if God exists and wants me to believe in Him, he would give me some clear evidence instead of such “miracles” with ambiguous evidence.
If God showed Himself to you, you would not worship Him as your previous post stated, which means you have a free-will bias already set. Your body posture is not open and facing Him, it is your back to Him.
Perhaps you will have to be knocked off your horse for you to know about God. It has happened in the past. Perhaps you could pray for something like that to happen.
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joemccarron
Guest
Is your problem with the fact that he showed he exists through miracles or is your problem with the evidence?I don’t make any demands of God since I don’t believe in God. I’m just thinking that if God exists and wants me to believe in Him, he would give me some clear evidence instead of such “miracles” with ambiguous evidence.
If not show himself by miracles then how?
As for the evidence what do you think he should do? Have thunderbolts clap every time we think a sinful thought? What if God took the form of a huge giant that we could constantly see standing over us where ever we went? What would that do to our free will?
Maybe God gave us the right amount of evidence. Maybe we are supposed to use our God given minds to figure out what we should do here and if we really look for an answer (and don’t settle for shrugging our shoulders and saying - eh, who cares) we will find him. If you could see God wouldn’t the most rational question be “what do you want me to do?” Does God not give us sufficient answers to the questions that are most rational to ask in our situation?
BTW: Ender I like your posts.
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Leela
Guest
As a response to my post this pretty much amounts to an admission that we don’t have evidence for God.Ahhhh - you have just stumbled on the test. Faith, not proof is required. Beyond that we have to look at Revelation for His claims.
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