Pascals Wager

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Argument from inconsistent revelations
It asserts that it is unlikely that God exists because many theologians and faithful adherents have produced conflicting and mutually exclusive revelations. The argument states that since a person not privy to revelation must either accept it or reject it based solely upon the authority of its proponent, and there is no way for a mere mortal to resolve these conflicting claims by investigation, it is prudent to reserve one’s judgment.
We can ignore the part about the unlikeliness of God’s existence and just concentrate on the part about mutually exclusive revelations so far as it relates to the usefulness of pascals wager as an argument to accept religion.
 
I was watching some Heaven’s Gate videos on youtube a couple of weeks ago (initiation tapes, exit statements etc) and one thing that struck me was the testimony about how many members had left the group but had later returned to it after realizing that life just wasn’t fulfilling on the outside. As strange as some of the members were, they clearly felt a sense of divine purpose and belonging. What we can learn from this is that some people will even see divine revelation in the idea that the earth is about to be “recycled” and that we must all escape onto a spaceship trailing behind a comet by committing suicide. Since many of these people did in fact follow through with said course of action (and it was within a “cult” that didn’t try to stop you from leaving if you wanted to) one can only conclude that a significant amount of faith was in play.
 
Hello my friend,
First, I think Pascals Wager is not a proof of God per se. To me, it is more of an appeal. It tries to appeal to someone’s sensibility by saying “what do you have to lose?”

Secondly, a man by the name of Glenn Miller has a somewhat detailed method of discerning between different revelations which is probably much more than I could give here, so here it is: christianthinktank.com/process1.html

Here, are just 2 pennies for you.

Much Peace and Blessings
 
Hello my friend,
First, I think Pascals Wager is not a proof of God per se. To me, it is more of an appeal. It tries to appeal to someone’s sensibility by saying “what do you have to lose?”
What do I have to lose by trying to force myself to believe (and adhere to the teachings of) some random religion knowing full well that even if I picked correctly, it’s unlikely that I will reap any of the rewards that are offered anyway because my faith wasn’t genuine? Seriously?

Contrary to popular opinion among theists, it takes a lot more than open-minded investigation of religious claims to become religious. It takes someone who is also willing to put more emphasis on the usefulness of emotion than rational thought when it comes to determining the truth. Religion is ultimately about what “feels” right. Committing suicide to escape the recycling of the earth “felt” right to members of the Heaven’s Gate cult.
 
cho pilo

We can ignore the part about the unlikeliness of God’s existence and just concentrate on the part about mutually exclusive revelations so far as it relates to the usefulness of pascals wager as an argument to accept religion.

Religions needn’t be mutually exclusive. Many religions make the same or similar claims, differing in some beliefs that are major and others that are minor.

Pascal himself spent a good part of Pensees examining the claims of different major religions around the world. He applied rational principles, and urged others to apply rational principles, when comparing religions. It is true that one might select the wrong religion, but it may be possible to select the right one. One does not sit safely on the fence refusing to choose any religion on the principle that God is going to favor those who refuse to gamble. And that’s because you have already gambled … on the notion that picking no religion is safer than picking the wrong one. 😃
 
What do I have to lose by trying to force myself to believe (and adhere to the teachings of) some random religion knowing full well that even if I picked correctly, it’s unlikely that I will reap any of the rewards that are offered anyway because my faith wasn’t genuine? Seriously?
You’re assuming that once you choose to wager that God exists, you would go through the rest of your life without genuine faith, without a growing, evolving faith. That position fails to recognize what the wager actually is. The wager doesn’t infer that you have a solitary utterance or fleeting thought of believing, and that’s it. The wager is to concede that God probably does exist, and then to live out the remainder of your life truly seeking Him. God takes care of the rest. It is your seeking that needs to be genuine. God rewards those who truly seek Him, and promises that you will find Him.
Contrary to popular opinion among theists, it takes a lot more than open-minded investigation of religious claims to become religious. It takes someone who is also willing to put more emphasis on the usefulness of emotion than rational thought when it comes to determining the truth. Religion is ultimately about what “feels” right. Committing suicide to escape the recycling of the earth “felt” right to members of the Heaven’s Gate cult.
Some “religions” may indeed be about what feels right. But Christianity is about what God has revealed about Himself to us. It is about genuine revelation, about objective truth. Emotional reaction to this revelation is common, but unnecessary for the human will to ascent to it.

Paraphrasing Dr. Peter Kreeft: “If all the religions in the world are like paths on a mountain, and God is on top of the mountain, then why aren’t all religions the same? Simple. One path comes down the mountain, all the others go up. Christianity isn’t man’s word about God…it is God’s word about man”
 
Religions needn’t be mutually exclusive. Many religions make the same or similar claims, differing in some beliefs that are major and others that are minor.
Perhaps they needn’t be, but many of them are. The problem with the idea that they are all true to some extent and that it doesn’t strictly matter which one you adhere to is that you have to then concede that scripture is not the ultimate authority. Once it’s integrity has been called into question you are left with the problem of trying to justify following one teaching at the expense of another in cases where all scripture is not in agreement. Ultimately you’re left with a situation where you can’t even be compelled to believe that Jesus died for our sins lest you be directly contradicting something like the Qur’an (which has equal claim to being the correct account of God’s dealings with and what he expects from us).
You’re assuming that once you choose to wager that God exists, you would go through the rest of your life without genuine faith, without a growing, evolving faith.
Unlike many atheists you might engage on these forums, I’ve had an inside view of what religion is. I understand what it feels like to believe in God; to have faith that borders on certainty. I used to think that this was something that only God could bestow upon someone since it seemed like such a positive affirmation of his existence; a reward or sorts. That “communion” seemed very real, and the emotional and psychological rewards were easily recognizable. It had to be “something” right?

Of course it was something. We are understandably willing to slip back into the mindset that we had as children, where adults were beings of great power and influence that protected us (or were at least in a perceived position to be able to) both physically and emotionally from the harsh realities of the world. Believing something like that once again brings us comfort and confidence. But what about the obvious benefits of communion (prayer) with God? Essentially no different from writing down your deepest thoughts and fears in a diary, or confiding in a friend who offers a supportive ear. Personally I am lucky enough to have a great bunch of intellectual and open-minded friends and I have come away from many a conversation with a clearer perspective and often a new inspirational outlook. But as previously alluded to, sometimes you already know what you need to hear, or what is at the core of a particular problem, and all that is necessary is for you to say it out loud, or write it down.

Finally, I’ve witnessed just as many spooky coincidences that I would previously have (at least tentatively) characterized as examples of “divine intervention” since moving beyond my faith in God as compared to when I felt certain that God was real. Often, things just happen, and it is we who attach a significance to them (that is usually consistent with what we already want to believe of course).

Since I now understand something about the psychology behind what people may describe as the tangible benefits of faith, the experience of those benefits no longer has any bearing on the question of the existence of the object of that faith. In other words, faith cannot sustain itself if one realizes that faith itself is evidence of nothing, unless one’s rationality is overwhelmed by the emotional need to sustain it.

In the end it does indeed mean that my faith wouldn’t be genuine because I would need to sustain it artificially, and I would know that I was doing it.
 
cho pilo

**In the end it does indeed mean that my faith wouldn’t be genuine because I would need to sustain it artificially, and I would know that I was doing it. **

So I suppose, like Freud, you think everyone who believes in God is delusional?

If that is your attitude, how do you know you are not delusional with a superiority complex? 😃

Perhaps they needn’t be, but many of them are. The problem with the idea that they are all true to some extent and that it doesn’t strictly matter which one you adhere to is that you have to then concede that scripture is not the ultimate authority.

This is a *non-sequitur *fallacy. No such concession has to be made.
 
Faith is built on right reason and logic not delusion or feelings.

There are steps in being open to God (I dont like using the word finding since God is everywhere. We dont FIND Him. Also please note not everyone has to take these steps. Some are given the gift to already be at the last one)

Does God exist?

Who is God?

Where can I follow God?

In my opinion it takes an unreasonable amount of faith to be Athiest.
 
What do I have to lose by trying to force myself to believe (and adhere to the teachings of) some random religion knowing full well that even if I picked correctly, it’s unlikely that I will reap any of the rewards that are offered anyway because my faith wasn’t genuine? Seriously?
.
Have you read Pascal’s Wager? I suspect not.
 
Originally Posted by cho pilo View Post
What do I have to lose by trying to force myself to believe (and adhere to the teachings of) some random religion knowing full well that even if I picked correctly, it’s unlikely that I will reap any of the rewards that are offered anyway because my faith wasn’t genuine? Seriously?


How do you know the faith that is acquired does not become, in the course of time, genuine?

How does anyone know that his faith is genuine until he lives, acts, breathes, and loves by it?

Ask anyone baptized from childhood into the Christian faith and living his entire life in it whether he does not ask himself, from time to time, “Is my faith genuine?”

Mere assent is not sufficiently genuine, as Pascal would be the first to insist. It is too easy for us to lie to ourselves, never mind others.

You are not certain to be saved just by betting on God and throwing the dice. But if you don’t bet on God, you are certain to lose. :eek:
 
What do I have to lose by trying to force myself to believe (and adhere to the teachings of) some random religion knowing full well that even if I picked correctly, it’s unlikely that I will reap any of the rewards that are offered anyway because my faith wasn’t genuine? Seriously?

Contrary to popular opinion among theists, it takes a lot more than open-minded investigation of religious claims to become religious. It takes someone who is also willing to put more emphasis on the usefulness of emotion than rational thought when it comes to determining the truth. Religion is ultimately about what “feels” right. Committing suicide to escape the recycling of the earth “felt” right to members of the Heaven’s Gate cult.
Hi Cho Pilo,
I would like to point out two lines of thought that might help answer your question:
  1. The quote assumes that faith is based on accepting or rejecting revelation told to us by others. But there is such a thing as a personal call, where a person feels called by God. So people may choose their religion based on direct first-hand knowledge. I believe that anyone can come to know God if they devote sincere time to prayer.
  2. Religious beliefs can, at least to some extent, be evaluated rationally. They aren’t all equal. Some make more sense than others.
 
cho pilo

**In the end it does indeed mean that my faith wouldn’t be genuine because I would need to sustain it artificially, and I would know that I was doing it. **

So I suppose, like Freud, you think everyone who believes in God is delusional?
There is a difference between being delusional and believing in God. I’m not one of those atheists who tries to suggest otherwise. Theists could only be classed as delusional if they continued to believe even after if it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt that God does not exist. But since that’s not possible, it wouldn’t be proper to classify them as such.

I do however think that some theists border on being delusional, but then again, so do some atheists.
This is a *non-sequitur *fallacy. No such concession has to be made.
We can clear this up pretty quickly with a single example. The Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins on the cross. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus was definitely not crucified, but was instead taken up to be with Allah. How do you reconcile this rather significant inconsistency with the idea that scripture is an ultimate authority on such matters?
 
cho pilo
**
We can clear this up pretty quickly with a single example. The Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins on the cross. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus was definitely not crucified, but was instead taken up to be with Allah. How do you reconcile this rather significant inconsistency with the idea that scripture is an ultimate authority on such matters? **

By observing that the documents upon which the Qur’an is based are the Old Testament and the New Testament. How can the New Testament be both false and true at the same time? Taken as the word of God it should be true all the way through. There is no way to justify changing the teaching, so the Qur’an fails to justify itself as to the New Testament teaching about the death of Jesus.

The fact of the matter is that the Qur’an would not exist if the Bible, upon which the Qur’an is largely based, did not previously exist. Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament and appeared in the New Testament. Mohamed was not prophesied in either Testament.

The Qur’an was not written during the first generation of those who followed the life and death of Jesus. How is it they would not be believed, but Mohamed should be believed as the manner of the death of Jesus?
 
You’re assuming that once you choose to wager that God exists, you would go through the rest of your life without genuine faith, without a growing, evolving faith. That position fails to recognize what the wager actually is. The wager doesn’t infer that you have a solitary utterance or fleeting thought of believing, and that’s it. The wager is to concede that God probably does exist, and then to live out the remainder of your life truly seeking Him. God takes care of the rest. It is your seeking that needs to be genuine. God rewards those who truly seek Him, and promises that you will find Him.
Any citation from Pascal available here? I am very interested on it.
 
**Any citation from Pascal available here? I am very interested on it. **

Here it is:

“If you gain, you gain all. If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then, without hesitation, that He exists…. At each step you take on this road, you will see so great certainty of gain, so much nothingness in what you risk, that you will at last recognize that you have wagered for something certain and infinite, for which you have given nothing.” Blaise Pascal
 
cho pilo
**
We can clear this up pretty quickly with a single example. The Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins on the cross. The Qur’an teaches that Jesus was definitely not crucified, but was instead taken up to be with Allah. How do you reconcile this rather significant inconsistency with the idea that scripture is an ultimate authority on such matters? **

By observing that the documents upon which the Qur’an is based are the Old Testament and the New Testament. How can the New Testament be both false and true at the same time? Taken as the word of God it should be true all the way through. There is no way to justify changing the teaching, so the Qur’an fails to justify itself as to the New Testament teaching about the death of Jesus.

The fact of the matter is that the Qur’an would not exist if the Bible, upon which the Qur’an is largely based, did not previously exist. Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament and appeared in the New Testament. Mohamed was not prophesied in either Testament.

The Qur’an was not written during the first generation of those who followed the life and death of Jesus. How is it they would not be believed, but Mohamed should be believed as the manner of the death of Jesus?
But this line of argument suggests that mundane reasoning is above divine revelation - because you are using mundane reasoning (ie. archaeological and historiographical records that state that the Bible is older than the Quran) to invalidate one divine revelation (in this case, the Quran) from being the superior one.

If you want to use mundane reasoning in one instance of judging what is to pass as divine and what isn’t, surely you must use it in other instances too.
Mundane reasoning would say that it is immoral to condemn people to eternal damnation, for example.
 
Would you mind defining “mundane reasoning”? It is not an expression with which I am familiar.

Pascal asks the atheist to reason his way to God. How is it that for the atheist Islam would be more reasonable than Christianity?
 
Would you mind defining “mundane reasoning”? It is not an expression with which I am familiar.
Common sense. The natural sciences. The social sciences.
That which is not divine reasoning.
Pascal asks the atheist to reason his way to God. How is it that for the atheist Islam would be more reasonable than Christianity?
That would depend on the brand of his mundane reasoning.
 
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