Pascal's Wager

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I don’t think you’ll get many atheists with this argument. I find the argument off-putting. If anything, it repulses me.
Sorry for that. I was not making an argument, just answering the OPs question on what I think about Pascal’s Wager. You know, what it means to me kind of a thing.

It just strikes me how a monk around 1100 AD (St. Bernard) description of his experience with God is all in terms of love and how he would put this sort of wager thinker at one step along the way.

🙂
 
Sorry for that. I was not making an argument, just answering the OPs question on what I think about Pascal’s Wager. You know, what it means to me kind of a thing.
No, no. I was referring to Pascal’s wager. Not your comment. Pascal’s wager, to me, is the worst kind of cost-benefit analysis, and is completely in contrast to the nature of Christ, I think.
It just strikes me how a monk around 1100 AD (St. Bernard) description of his experience with God is all in terms of love and how he would put this sort of wager thinker at one step along the way.

🙂
I don’t know St. Bernard’s story, but based on what you’ve said, it’s the perfect example of how Pascal’s Wager comes up very short.
 
Sorry for that. I was not making an argument, just answering the OPs question on what I think about Pascal’s Wager. You know, what it means to me kind of a thing.

It just strikes me how a monk around 1100 AD (St. Bernard) description of his experience with God is all in terms of love and how he would put this sort of wager thinker at one step along the way.

🙂
You have a point! If we regard Pascal’s bet as a choice about the reality of love it makes good sense. Why opt for a loveless universe when all the evidence points to an opportunity for sharing life with others and being united to them? It amounts to a choice between hope and despair - and even between the power to choose and no power at all! 🙂
 
Why opt for a loveless universe when all the evidence points to an opportunity for sharing life with others and being united to them? It amounts to a choice between hope and despair - and even between the power to choose and no power at all! 🙂
Atheists don’t live in a loveless universe, though. Most atheists do not live lives of despair.
 
I hear that same language out of Christians all the time. *All *the time. But that’s not what I was talking about. I’m talking about the insincerity with which God and Jesus are invoked, as though they’re brand names of tennis shoes or a fast food restaurant. They happily pray to God for victory in a baseball or basketball game. Also, I’m talking about protesters with signs saying things like “God Hates Fags!” It’s a big turn off.
Yes, regrettably I also have heard a few Christians taking God’s name in vain without apparently thinking twice about it; but so far I’ve never seen a Christian carrying a sign that reads “God Hates Fags!” You’re right in saying that this would be a “turn off”; but not only would it be a “turn off,” but also that kind of sign would be a sign of wrong teaching, since Christianity teaches that “God so loved the world…” But this does not change the statement that atheists seem to have God on their minds more than many theists and frequently try to order the Person they claim doesn’t exist to curse and condemn people and things to hell. Perhaps, though, this is just a sign that the Hounds of Heaven are closing in upon them.
 
I mean that when it comes to deciding that a particular miraculous story is literally historically true, it makes it more difficult when very similar stories are common. If, say, god-like beings are born of virgins quite regularly in myth, then it’s not unreasonable to view any claim of virgin birth with suspicion (at least to the extent that the claim is meant in the most literal, historical sense as opposed to being a mode of presenting a spiritual truth).

Let me put it a different way.

The fact that the miracles presented in the Gospels and attributed to Jesus are the same miracles attributed time and again to other figures (both historical and mythical figures), while not evidence that those miracles did or did not ever occur, could lead any individual to reasonably suspect that they simply never happened, but instead were used to tell a truth that is beyond the capacity of ordinary language to tell.

In this sense, the gospels could be seen just as Genesis can be seen, as presenting a familiar story in a new way to present a spiritual rather than an historical truth.

I think Joe Campbell covers this material in Hero With a Thousand Faces. Lord Raglan’s The Hero covers it very explicitly.
I think that a person’s believing or denying the miracles that are written down in the Bible, for instance, the Virgin Birth of Jesus and the eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection, is basically intertwined with a person’s presupposition of the existence or the non-existence of God. Therefore, the fundamental point of denying the miracles in the Bible, as far as the atheist is concerned, is the atheist’s attempt to rationalize in his or her own head that God does not exist.
 
I mean that when it comes to deciding that a particular miraculous story is literally historically true, it makes it more difficult when very similar stories are common. If, say, god-like beings are born of virgins quite regularly in myth, then it’s not unreasonable to view any claim of virgin birth with suspicion (at least to the extent that the claim is meant in the most literal, historical sense as opposed to being a mode of presenting a spiritual truth).
Let’s take the example above and replace “god-like beings are born of virgins” with “battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army”.

If, say, battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army appears quite regularly in myth, then it’s not unreasonable to view any claim of battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army with suspicion (at least to the extent that the claim is meant in the most literal, historical sense as opposed to being a mode of presenting a spiritual truth).

Does that change your position at all?

Do you really think that because there are a multitude of mythical stories in which an underdog extinguishes his enemy…that an example of this occurrence in real life couldn’t possibly be true?
 
Yes, regrettably I also have heard a few Christians taking God’s name in vain without apparently thinking twice about it; but so far I’ve never seen a Christian carrying a sign that reads “God Hates Fags!” You’re right in saying that this would be a “turn off”; but not only would it be a “turn off,” but also that kind of sign would be a sign of wrong teaching, since Christianity teaches that “God so loved the world…” But this does not change the statement that atheists seem to have God on their minds more than many theists and frequently try to order the Person they claim doesn’t exist to curse and condemn people and things to hell. Perhaps, though, this is just a sign that the Hounds of Heaven are closing in upon them.
I think atheists have god on their minds in the US because christians are often trying to push god into public school class rooms!!

They use God’s name in vain because it’s part of the common language, though. I just watched Cowboys and Aliens, and that language was used a couple of times. It’s not unusual, and it’s not at all unique to atheists.

www.godhatesfags.com is the web site of the Westboro church. If you want to see those images, just to a google image search of “god hates fags.” I assume you don’t want to see them! I agree–it’s wrong teaching, and these are extreme examples of crazy people.
 
Ha! It’s funny you say “apples.” Was that purposeful?
Interesting. Not purposeful, perhaps. 🤷 Maybe the word I’d use is…

inspired? :gopray2:
I do not believe that reason alone (or at all) will lead anyone to conclude that the virgin birth of Jesus is *not *myth while the virgin births of, for example, Krishna or the Buddha are myth.
I believe that reason alone *could *lead someone to conclude that the virgin birth of Jesus is not a myth. 🤷

Was it Aquinas who argued that if this “myth” of Jesus did not really happen, then the greater miracle is this: there could not be a greater miracle than that the whole world should have been converted without miracles!
 
I think that a person’s believing or denying the miracles that are written down in the Bible, for instance, the Virgin Birth of Jesus and the eyewitness accounts of the Resurrection, is basically intertwined with a person’s presupposition of the existence or the non-existence of God.
I think this is partly true. Still, though, if you took someone who had no presupposition one way or the other (apparantly raised on a deserted island!), and told him/her that someone was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, and himself died and then came back to life, they simply wouldn’t believe it. They’d have the same reasonable skepticism you’d have if I claimed that I’d once been dead for a few days and then came back to life.
Therefore, the fundamental point of denying the miracles in the Bible, as far as the atheist is concerned, is the atheist’s attempt to rationalize in his or her own head that God does not exist.
I don’t think it requires rationalization. One can deny miracles simply because they never see miracles happen and miracles contradict everything they’ve learned about the world. They are, by definition, miraculous!
 
It’s not really begging the question, I don’t think:

Premise 1: Miracle stories aren’t true in a literal sense.
Premise 2: Genesis Creation story is a miracle story.
Conclusion: Genesis’ Creation story is not true in a literal sense.

But, here I’m being a bit of a smart alec because I always chuckle when people use that logical format!😉

But, either it is circular, or you just disagree with the premises. Regardless, I’m not trying to prove anything. Either Creation is literally true, or it’s not, but I think it’s completely reasonable to believe that it’s not–and I think the Catholic Church agrees with me.
Well, let’s move it from something that may or not be “true in a literal sense” (Creation in 6 days) to the Resurrection–a miracle which either is TRUE in a literal sense or it is a MYTH.

That there are some myths in pre-Christian societies of a hero who resurrects from the dead does not necessarily prove that Jesus’ resurrection is also a myth. (See my previous definition of myth.)
I’d have to see such a thing as, say, a flood that covers every inch of the Earth, or a universe teaming with life created in just 6 days, or a man walking on water and raising the dead, or a sea split in two, to believe they were actual events rather than mysteries that present spiritual truths.
Do you actually have to see Manila before you believe that it is the capital of the Philippines? Do you actually have to see your IgG levels to know if your polio vaccination works? Do you actually have to see your pilot’s license before you entrust your life to him in an aircraft?:hmmm:

If not, then why do you present a greater standard for religion than you do for any other data?
Increasingly, it’s occurring to me that when people ask, for example, “Did God really create the Earth in six days!?!?” or, “Was the Roman soldier’s servant really healed?” or even, “Was the Buddha really born from the right side of his mother?” they have already missed the point. I may be wrong, of course, I freely admit. But most of the arguments over the sorts of things are increasingly meaningless to me, and get in the way of everything that matters.
Well, Christians believe that we must love God with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. And discussing whether the Roman’s soldier’s servant really was healed is the loving him with our entire MIND part.
 
Let’s take the example above and replace “god-like beings are born of virgins” with “battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army”.

If, say, battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army appears quite regularly in myth, then it’s not unreasonable to view any claim of battles in which an underdog annihilates a superior army with suspicion (at least to the extent that the claim is meant in the most literal, historical sense as opposed to being a mode of presenting a spiritual truth).

Does that change your position at all?

Do you really think that because there are a multitude of mythical stories in which an underdog extinguishes his enemy…that an example of this occurrence in real life couldn’t possibly be true?
I didn’t say “it couldn’t possible be true” did I? I think I said skepticism and disbelief is reasonable.

And this skepticism is warranted not only because of the miraculous nature of the story (virgin birth), but also because it fits a particular style (virgin birth and underdog victory). Concerning the underdog example. Here are my problems: 1) there are historical examples of underdogs annihilating superior armies (I think), so there’s no reason on the surface why such a story would be difficult to believe. 2) if the literary form of one story of an underdog’s victory matches that of a dozen other stories, and those dozen other stories are denied by the individual promoting the one story’s truth, I think there’s reason to be skeptical of its literal truth.

Just as likely (perhaps more likely), underdog stories may be based on real events where the odds weren’t so heavily weighted against the story teller’s side, but where the meaning of the victory was magnified by mythologizing the story. Likewise, the Buddha was a really righteous dude, and to illustrate that fact, his life was mythologized by saying he descended into his mother’s womb and was later born out of her right side. The meaning is what matters, and that meaning is made clear through the myth.
 
I think this is partly true. Still, though, if you took someone who had no presupposition one way or the other (apparantly raised on a deserted island!), and told him/her that someone was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, and himself died and then came back to life, they simply wouldn’t believe it. They’d have the same reasonable skepticism you’d have if I claimed that I’d once been dead for a few days and then came back to life.
'Tis true, this. And no person, raised on a desert island or in a university classroom, will ever be converted to Catholicism by any single argument–no matter how perfect.

They will be converted by “emotion, desire and concrete evidence. Most of us know that our heart is our center, not our head. But apologetics gets at the heart through the head. The head is important precisely because it is a gate to the heart. We can love only what we know…*Arguments may not bring you to faith, but they can certainly keep you away from faith.” * (Quoting Peter Kreeft again)
 
Was it Aquinas who argued that if this “myth” of Jesus did not really happen, then the greater miracle is this: there could not be a greater miracle than that the whole world should have been converted without miracles!
Doesn’t this apply to Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism, too, then?
That there are some myths in pre-Christian societies of a hero who resurrects from the dead does not necessarily prove that Jesus’ resurrection is also a myth.
We agree on this point.
Do you actually have to see Manila before you believe that it is the capital of the Philippines? …

If not, then why do you present a greater standard for religion than you do for any other data?
Like I said, there’s a difference isn’t there? I’ve been over seas and I’ve been around the US. I know cities. Furthermore, I’ve seen Manila on television, and actually know people who have been there. The existence of Manila doesn’t require me to suspend my understanding of the world. Resurrection? Never seen it. To simply accept it as true requires that I suspend my reason, to ignore much that I know about the world. It’s not really a separate standard. It’s the same standard. I don’t doubt the historical existence of Jesus. I also don’t doubt the spiritual truths promoted by the Catholic Church. I do doubt the miracles, though–and it’s reasonable to do so.
Well, Christians believe that we must love God with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. And discussing whether the Roman’s soldier’s servant really was healed is the loving him with our entire MIND part.
There are christians who disagree with you on this.
 
I didn’t say “it couldn’t possible be true” did I? I think I said skepticism and disbelief is reasonable.
I stand corrected.

I still don’t think that simply because there are mythical tales of an apple (or a battle) that disbelief is required when a story contains an apple (or a battle).

Reference to in a myth does not warrant any increased skepticism or disbelief when you read about in another story.

I read about a doula in a myth once to one of my daughters. I would really be appalled if my daughter later tells me, “Mom, I don’t think doulas exist because you told me a fairy tale about one when I was little. I’m a little skeptical for that very reason.” :eek:
 
They will be converted by "emotion, desire and concrete evidence.
Yes. And I’m kind of hoping emotion and desire are enough.
Most of us know that our heart is our center, not our head. But apologetics gets at the heart through the head.
Is there a way to get to the head through the heart? I know there is to some extent. I believe in the efficacy of prayer and the sacraments. But to what extent? Again, just how much doubt is too much? I like your marriage analogy from the other thread (or was it this thread?).
The head is important precisely because it is a gate to the heart. We can love only what we know…*Arguments may not bring you to faith, but they can certainly keep you away from faith." * (Quoting Peter Kreeft again)
My head, through a roundabout way–reading lots of social theory and moral philosophy over the past few years, reading some other relevant works over the last year, reading the catechism and some of the encyclicals over the past month–has brought me a certain distance (to a place that 6 months ago I’d never have thought I’d find myself).
 
There are christians who disagree with you on this.
There’s a lot of Christians who have some very erroneous concepts. There are Christians who believe that baptism is an ordinance. There are Christians who believe that the Eucharist is an abomination. There are Christians who believe that abortion is moral.

That they believe in error is sad, but irrelevant to our discussion here.
 
`I still don’t think that simply because there are mythical tales of an apple (or a battle) that disbelief is required when a story contains an apple (or a battle).
I agree.
`Reference to in a myth does not warrant any increased skepticism or disbelief when you read about in another story.
I disagree. If we’re talking about a recurring theme, it does warrant it, I think.
`I read about a doula in a myth once to one of my daughters. I would really be appalled if my daughter later tells me, “Mom, I don’t think doulas exist because you told me a fairy tale about one when I was little. I’m a little skeptical for that very reason.” :eek:
Is the Doula a recurring theme in mythology? Will your daughter never have first-hand experience with doula? Are doula unlikely in anyway? Would you disbelieve the myth you read simply because of the doula?
Are Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism religions of miracles, too?
They each contain miracles. The Qur’an itself is a miracle–revealed by god to Muhammad. If the Qur’an wasn’t really revealed by god, then quite a miracle it is that there are 1.5-plus billion muslims in the world today (according to Aquinas’ logic).

I don’t think miracles are probably as relevant to Buddhism and Hinduism–but they exist in abundance. For example, the god Vishnu has multiple avatars (I think some Hindus believe Jesus is an avatar of Vishnu!!).
 
Concerning the underdog example. Here are my problems: 1) there are historical examples of underdogs annihilating superior armies (I think), so there’s no reason on the surface why such a story would be difficult to believe.
The 4 Gospels–as well as *other *ancient, non-Scriptural texts–attest to the historical reality of the Resurrection.

Let us compare the Gospels with two particular mythic writings from around that time to see for ourselves the stylistic differences…

It may be worthwhile to take a quick look, for purposes of comparison at the
closest thing we have around the time of the Gospels to an attempt at a
realistic fantasy. This is the story of Apollonius of Tyana, written about A.D.
250 by Flavius Philostratus…There is some evidence that a neo-Pythagorean
sage named Apollonius may really have lived, and thus Philostratus’ work is a
real example of what some have thought the Gospels to be: a fictionalized account of
the life of a real sage and teacher, introducing miraculous elements to build up
the prestige of the central figure.
It thus gives us a good look at what a real
example of a fictionalized biography would look like
, written at a time and
place not too far removed from those in which the Gospels were written.
The first thing we notice is the fairy-tale atmosphere. There is a rather nice
little vampire story, which inspired a minor poem by Keats entitled Lamia. There
are animal stories about, for instance, snakes in India big enough to drag off and eat an elephant. The sage wanders from country to country and wherever he
goes he is likely to be entertained by the king or emperor, who holds long
conversations with him and sends him on his way with camels and precious stones…

The point is that this is what you get when the imagination goes to work. **Once
the boundaries of fact are crossed we wander into fairyland. **And very nice too,
for amusement or recreation. But the Gospels are set firmly in the real
Palestine of the first century, and the little details are not picturesque
inventions but the real details that only an eyewitness or a skilled realistic
novelist can give
. (Thinking About Religion, p. 75-76)

(2) A second problem is that there was not enough time for myth to develop. The
original demythologizers pinned their case onto a late second-century date for
the writing of the Gospels; **several generations have to pass before the added
mythological elements can be mistakenly believed to be facts. **Eyewitnesses would
be around before that to discredit the new, mythic versions. We know of other
cases where myths and legends of miracles developed around a religious
founder—for example, Buddha, Lao-tzu and Muhammad. In each case, many
generations passed before the myth surfaced.


Julius Muller put the anti-myth argument this way:
One cannot imagine how such a series of legends could arise in an historical
age, obtain universal respect, and supplant the historical recollection of the
true character [Jesus]…if eyewitnesses were still at hand who could be
questioned respecting the truth of the recorded marvels
. Hence, legendary
fiction, as it likes not the clear present time but prefers the mysterious gloom
of gray antiquity, is wont to seek a remoteness of age, along with that of
space, and to remove its boldest and most rare and wonderful creations into a
very remote and unknown land. (The Theory of Myths in Its Application to the

Gospel History Examined and Confuted [London, 1844], p. 26)
[SIGN1]Muller challenged his nineteenth-century contemporaries to produce a single
example anywhere in history of a great myth or legend arising around a
historical figure and being generally believed within thirty years after that
figure’s death. No one has ever answered him.[/SIGN1]
(3) The myth theory has two layers. The first layer is the historical Jesus, who
was not divine, did not claim divinity, performed no miracles, and did not rise
from the dead. The second, later, mythologized layer is the Gospels as we have
them, with a Jesus who claimed to be divine, performed miracles and rose from
the dead. The problem with this theory is simply that there is not the slightest
bit of any real evidence whatever for the existence of any such first layer. The
two-layer cake theory has the first layer made entirely of air—and hot air at
that.

source: scribd.com/doc/15629349/Peter-Kreeft-Essays-on-Apologetics-Part-1
 
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