Pascal's Wager

[Gilbert_Keith]

We do not choose what to believe
Ah yes, the usual atheist chains clanging away!
All the more reason to believe that God liberates and Nogod enslaves.

Likewise, this is the point Pascal drives home over and over. We cannot avoid choosing!

 

[Hitetlen]

Yes, it is. A wonderful document, but it is not a legal document.
And apparently you don’t agree with it as the fundamental moral glue that holds the Republic together.

No, it is the Constitution which is foundation of the Republic.

Abortion is the termination of life, but not necessarily killing a person.

Then what is it the killing of? A sheep? A cow? A pig? A rabbit?

The killing of a potential person. If someone is accepted at a medical university, should that person be called a “doctor” from that moment onwards? Or should we call him a doctor only when he finishes up his studies? Don’t you see the difference between a doctor and potential doctor? When you break a few eggs to make an omlette, do you call the result a “fried chicken”? Why not? Because the egg is NOT a chicken?
Gilbert Keith:

Weren’t you at one time a fetus? If your mother had killed you in her womb, would you be here today to defend the killing of others in the womb on the ground that they are not persons?

Yes, if she did, I would not be here. And what does have to do with anything?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*No, it is the Constitution which is foundation of the Republic.
*
So then, you reject the legitimacy of the Declaration of Independence as our founding document, preceding as it does the Constitution?

I can see why, as an atheist, you would. After all, the Declaration also refers to our Creator as the source of these inalienable rights…

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Yes, if she did, I would not be here. And what does have to do with anything?

Well, for one thing, you would not be having all this fun at Catholic Answers.

 

[AnAtheist]

We do not choose what to believe
Ah yes, the usual atheist chains clanging away!
All the more reason to believe that God liberates and Nogod enslaves.

Likewise, this is the point Pascal drives home over and over. We cannot avoid choosing!

There are circumstances, when we CANNOT choose. Like you cannot choose to grow wings and fly. You cannot choose to move faster than lightspeed. You cannot choose not to get hit by a lightning when a lightning strikes you.

Likewise we cannot choose to enter an afterlife of any sort, if there is no afterlife.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

if there is no afterlife.

That’s a big “if”!

 

[Hitetlen]

Yes, if she did, I would not be here. And what does have to do with anything?

Well, for one thing, you would not be having all this fun at Catholic Answers.

I can see that. Now what do you say about the egg-chicken dichotomy?

 

[Hitetlen]

We do not choose what to believe
Ah yes, the usual atheist chains clanging away!
All the more reason to believe that God liberates and Nogod enslaves.

Likewise, this is the point Pascal drives home over and over. We cannot avoid choosing!

Can you choose to believe in the Easter Bunny? In Santa Claus? And you had a lot of evidence for Santa Claus when you were a kid. No proof, of course, but a lot of evidence… And you still cannot bring yourself to believe in him? It is better to believe in Santa, otherwise he will not bring you presents. Pascal’s Wager nudges you to believe in Santa, does it not?

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Santa would bring presents either way. He’s that kind of guy.

There is an argument for experiential knowledge. Try it and you may end up buying it. But you need an open mind and a desire to read the CCC and try what it preaches, editate on what it says and pray for the grace of faith… peace

 

[Hitetlen]

MichaelTDoyle:

Santa would bring presents either way. He’s that kind of guy.

There is an argument for experiential knowledge. Try it and you may end up buying it. But you need an open mind and a desire to read the CCC and try what it preaches, editate on what it says and pray for the grace of faith… peace

That is not the point. Can you force yourself into believing something? Not saying that you believe, but truly believing it? Maybe you can brainwash yourself, though I doubt it. Our basic, fundamental beliefs are not subject to volitional control. Atheists do not “resent” God, do not “reject” God, simply do not believe that such a being exists.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Now what do you say about the egg-chicken dichotomy?

False analogy.

The human fetus is not an egg.

Go ask your mother.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Our basic, fundamental beliefs are not subject to volitional control.

Here we go again … get released from the chains of superstition only to be locked in the chains of atheistic psychological determinism.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Pascal’s Wager nudges you to believe in Santa, does it not?
No, because Santa only brings the presents of this world.

God brings the great present … hope of everlasting life.

What nudges you to believe in Nogod? Surely not the hope of everlasting death.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Hitetlen:

That is not the point. Can you force yourself into believing something? Not saying that you believe, but truly believing it? Maybe you can brainwash yourself, though I doubt it. Our basic, fundamental beliefs are not subject to volitional control. Atheists do not “resent” God, do not “reject” God, simply do not believe that such a being exists.

Agreed. I respectfully submit that our human minds are not so much like granite as our forum positions would make it seem

I am not asking you to believe. I am asking you to try before you buy. I am not asking you to ascent to the apostles creed, merely to say it as a possibility. I’m not asking you to use a mustard seed to move a mountain, just to recite a few prayers on a starry night and ask for faith, to think of what you would think would be a perfect mother and recite a few hail Marys while pondering what you would ask a nurturing mother.

I’m asking everyone who would listen to read the message of love inherent in the Church’s teachings, the foundation of the Church’s teaching–to love and meditate on that as a jumping off point to the supernatural world.

I’m asking you to ask for more love to give and receive of those entities that the Church proclaims exist to help us know Him better and know ourselves better and know our neighbors better in love, with love, through love. Ask in love, with love through love for Mary to guide you to Jesus…

Dip your toe in the water.

peace

 

[TPJCatholic]

If I ask a wall to give me faith, I will not gain faith, nor will I have hurt myself in any way.

If I ask God to give me faith, I might be given faith, or I might not, either way I will not have hurt myself in any way.

How does it hurt to ask?

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

God brings the great present … hope of everlasting life.

What nudges you to believe in Nogod? Surely not the hope of everlasting death.

There is no hope involved.
What nudges us (or at least me) to “believe in Nogod” is that everything in this world indicates there is “Nogod”. And no everlasting life. To wish for a god or everlasting life, because one fears death, does not make it real.

 

[Hitetlen]

Gilbert Keith:

The human fetus is not an egg.

It most certainly is a fertilized egg. which will grow into a human person, if everything goes well:
If it does not get flushed out but gets implanted into the wall of the uterus. If it stays there, drawing nutrients from the mother (like any good parasite would). If the mother’s body does not reject it. And finally, if the birth goes well, and the baby (finally a baby) draws his or her first breath. At that point the fetus finally becomes a legitimate human being.

 

[TPJCatholic]

AnAtheist,

A person of faith sees everything in the world as evidence of God existence. The very fact that we are alive screems the truth of God to a person of faith.

 

[steveandersen]

Hitetlen:

…And finally, if the birth goes well, and the baby (finally a baby) draws his or her first breath. At that point the fetus finally becomes a legitimate human being.

I curious, in light of the above, what your attitude is towards prenatal care and the care of premature infants?

not to highjack the thread…I agree with the OP that Pascal’s Wager has many problems with regards to good game theory

I’m just curious.
It would seem to me that even absent theistic reasons, when it comes to making pronouncements on when life begins, that might be one of those occations when you would want to err on the side of caution

 

[Hitetlen]

MichaelTDoyle:

Agreed. I respectfully submit that our human minds are not so much like granite as our forum positions would make it seem

I am glad we can agree so far.

MichaelTDoyle:

I am not asking you to believe. I am asking you to try before you buy. I am not asking you to ascent to the apostles creed, merely to say it as a possibility. I’m not asking you to use a mustard seed to move a mountain, just to recite a few prayers on a starry night and ask for faith, to think of what you would think would be a perfect mother and recite a few hail Marys while pondering what you would ask a nurturing mother.

I’m asking everyone who would listen to read the message of love inherent in the Church’s teachings, the foundation of the Church’s teaching–to love and meditate on that as a jumping off point to the supernatural world.

I’m asking you to ask for more love to give and receive of those entities that the Church proclaims exist to help us know Him better and know ourselves better and know our neighbors better in love, with love, through love. Ask in love, with love through love for Mary to guide you to Jesus…

Dip your toe in the water.

peace

My friend (if I may be so bold), I did. I was brought up a believer, and I believed just like a child can, without reservations. I was not a Catholic, the mighty Church did not like the fact that my Mother (who was a Catholic) married to a Protestant. But I believed with all my heart… until I started to doubt.

When my prayers went unanswered, and they were very serious, heartfelt prayers (the prayers of a child cannot be anything else), I started to feel uneasy. Later I was told, that one should never pray for things that can be verified (of course they did not use this word ) only for things which are insubstantial, like salvation and other intangibles. (Of course you may pray for something that is tangible, but the answer will be a resounding “NO”. Try to pray for someone’s amputated leg to regrow, and see the result.) Even as a child I must have been pretty rational, and that just did not make sense.

I don’t say that it is impossible that there is a great intellect “out there”. There can be, but it cannot be the God as described in the Bible, or as the church teaches. Because the teachings are contradictory. There can be no married bachelors, there can be no square circles, no matter how fervently one wishes to believe in them.

You call God “loving”. That word means something completely different for me. A loving being does not create everlasting torture in hell. A loving being gives unconditionally, does not want you to worship him. And an intellect of that magnitude would not want us, almost insubstantial beings to “worship” him. It would be beneath his level. A loving being would not resort to blackmail tactics: “worship me or else…”

Would it be great to see my beloved parents agian? Of course it would. But just because I would like that, I am unable to accept a fairy tale loaded with contradictions.