Pascal's Wager

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steveandersen:
I curious, in light of the above, what your attitude is towards prenatal care and the care of premature infants?

not to highjack the thread…I agree with the OP that Pascal’s Wager has many problems with regards to good game theory

I’m just curious.
It would seem to me that even absent theistic reasons, when it comes to making pronouncements on when life begins, that might be one of those occations when you would want to err on the side of caution
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I agree with you, that one ought to err on the side of caution. Sure I agree with prenatal care, and trying to keep the premature infants alive (as long as they are otherwise healthy and it is not too expensive - I would not agree to keep the poor sucker alive if the attempt would cost the GDP of the United States…).

Here is a definition: once the fetus has a brain, and its brain functions properly, we can reasonably call it a person. Mind you, I agree that even an unfertilized ovum is alive. It is just not a person. A fertilized zygote is also alive. But it is still not a person. A malignant tumor is also alive, and no one would call it a person.
 
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TPJCatholic:
AnAtheist,

A person of faith sees everything in the world as evidence of God existence. The very fact that we are alive screems the truth of God to a person of faith.
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That is a very interesting statement. Not to be picky, but it does not raise the level of acceptance very high. If everything is seens as a positive evidence: tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, plagues, misery, hunger, leprosy, floods and droughts, famines and diseases… what does that tell about the personality of this God?
 
I hear you. And I do understand how difficult faith can be.

Perhaps, the Catechism of the Catholic faith is not for children in the sense that what it has to offer children already have–childlike faith. What it does have is a metaphysical underpinning for a loving God and a view of you and me as not insubstantial but infinitely (I use that word literally) precious to God. This is laid out in a logical fashion with commentary on the world today.

You’re right; we live by faith. Although miracles do happen, my prayers have never regrown limbs, although I have experienced profound life saving change from prayers answered in my life.

God as illumined by Catholic spirituality offers faith hope and charity to all people–a spiritual life and meaning for suffering in this world–a means to extract beauty from pain, grace from agony.

The description you give of God and religion is not one that fits with Catholic spirituality. Please consider something other than what you describe, but what is laid out in the CCC.

So let’s say that I agree with you that the description you gave of God and religion is false and unworthy of belief. However, there is another description waiting for us to explore in the Catholic faith. For someone with your intelligence, I think the CCC is a good place to start, ymmv. It would give you the foundational sketch of Who God is and His Son and who we are in relation to Him. Not perfected answers, but another good jumping off point. Then, maybe try the other jumping off point in my earlier post.

imho, ymmv 👍
 
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Hitetlen:
A quick question: what is “ymmv”? I am not familiar with this abbreviation.
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It’s internet lingo
your mileage may vary (not a theological term 😃 😃 )

I just meant it to say that 2 people studying faith will make different progress. We get waht we can get and we are not culpable for what we cannot get. Get it? 😃 I crack me up.
 
An atheist would have to be omniscient in order to seriously claim there is no God which would make him or her god. Philosophically speaking, the only truley solid gorund atheists can stand upon is indifference or agnosticism…
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
It’s internet lingo
your mileage may vary (not a theological term 😃 😃 )

I just meant it to say that 2 people studying faith will make different progress. We get waht we can get and we are not culpable for what we cannot get. Get it? 😃 I crack me up.
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Cool, thanks. There are too many abbreviations out there.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Hitetlen,

It demonstrates the power of God.
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Maybe so but what it reveals of His personality is not very worthy of worship, unless this worship stems from fear.
 
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Anonymous_1:
An atheist would have to be omniscient in order to seriously claim there is no God which would make him or her god. Philosophically speaking, the only truley solid gorund atheists can stand upon is indifference or agnosticism…
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As long as the word “God” remains undefined, you have a point. Otherwise the definition may or may not contain logical fallacies. If it does (as with the God of the Bible), we can safely say that no such being can exist, and there is no need to refer to omniscience.

I can say with complete certainty that there can be no “a” and “b”, where “a” and “b” are both positive integers and their ratio “a/b” precisely equals the square root of 2. And I am not omniscient in general (nor in mathematics… alas!)
 
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Hitetlen:
Maybe so but what it reveals of His personality is not very worthy of worship, unless this worship stems from fear.
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Consider this:
We have a life time to foster our love for God because by loving God we are capable of delighting in Him. Eveyrthing that is good and eprfect is brought to perfection in Him: love, joy, peace, happiness, light, mercy, and so on. However there are certain things that are good that are not necesarily pleasant, an example is Justice. Gods infinite love and mercy bring balance to His infinite and perfect Justice. What greater injustice is there than a failure to give homage to the One whom everything good is derived from. Any hoo, continue to follow with me if you would along this progression of thought. God created us, loves us an wants what is best for us. What could be better for us than Him? So we have this lifetime to foster our love for Him. We learn to delight in Him and His Infinite Wisdom, and Love and Mercy and Goodness. By learning to love Him(with the help of the Helper the Holy Spirit of course) we are made capable to delight in Him in eternity! B/c He is infinitly good, by delighting in Him we will experience the infinite joy which has been traditionally been associated with the light of Gods Glory in Heaven, God Himself. Now, in order to be able to love God, we have to have free will! But this free will makes it possible for us to love God which makes us capable of experiencing the Joy of Heaven! Praise God and His awesome Wisdom and Love that He would share Himself, in His infinite benevolence with us!

Besides the witness and glory ad beauty of His creation, He has revealed His gooodness to us in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Word made Flesh, the manifestation, the visible image of the invisible God. He has given us plenty of reason to believe in Him, and plenty of reason to rejoice in Him. The truth is as is stated in Romans 1 “The truth about God was known to them instinctivley. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. Fromt he time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.”

Anyway, let us all seek to set aside our precepts, and seek the truth wi th an open and curious heart!
 
Hitetlen,

I disagree (no surpise, right).

The fact that God is in control of all things, and that bad things happen, makes a person of faith seek the reasons for why such things happen. In that pursuit one begins to know God in a deeper way. Many people find God in the valley of their lives, very few people find Him at the peaks.

God loves us so much that He never interferes with our gift of being able to freely choose. Because of this many bad things happen, yet God does not erase free will just because people suffer. It is one of His greatest gifts because He does not want a bunch of robotic humans that are forced to come to Him, He wants us to freely choose Him.
 
AnAtheist

everything in this world indicates there is “Nogod”. And no everlasting life. To wish for a god or everlasting life, because one fears death, does not make it real.

*everything in this world indicates there is “Nogod”. *

Such as? You have got to do better than “everything.”

everlasting life, because one fears death, does not make it real.

Because one does not want God to exist, it does not follow that God does not exist.

I think it was Chesterton who said it best: “The atheist look for God like a thief looks for a policeman.”

Not wanting to find Him.
 
Hitetlin

…And finally, if the birth goes well, and the baby (finally a baby) draws his or her first breath. At that point the fetus finally becomes a legitimate human being.

I’ll try again: what was the fetus before it drew its first breath on its own?

A cow?
A rabbit?
A chicken?
A snake?
A human being waiting to take its first breath on its own?
 
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TPJCatholic:
Hitetlen,

I disagree (no surpise, right).

The fact that God is in control of all things, and that bad things happen, makes a person of faith seek the reasons for why such things happen.
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That is a legitimate question, and I am not afraid to go there, if you are also willing. But I have a humble request: please do not try to justify whatever we happen to talk about by the generic answer: “whatever God does is for our own good, even if we cannot understand its purpose”. That is a logical fallacy: you try to convince me that God can be called “good” or “loving” despite the problems I may bring up. The aforementioned generic answer would be circular reasoning.

The path you suggest is akin to the “doctor’s argument”: when someone (with limited knowledge) sees a doctor operating on a patient, he may assume that a horrible torture is taking place, when he simply does not understand the process. I am willing to consider your arguments, but you cannot simply refer to our ignorance. The fact that something looks like a torture is most probably a torture, unless one can prove that it is not. (The duck test :))

Furthermore, I can already make an argument: even if we assume that whatever God does is for some greater good, that is not enough! You also have to substantiate that there is no better way (in our sense) to achieve the same result, despite God’s alleged omnipotence. (In other words: the world we live in today is the best possible world, even God cannot make it any better!)

To show what I mean, consider a doctor and a patient, who has been bitten by a poisonous snake. If there is no antidote available, the doctor can resort to an amputation to save the patient’s life. However, if there IS an antidote available, the amputation is not a legitimate solution, even if it DOES save the patient’s life.

And this is a very tough request on my part. Let me know if you are interested in exploring this problem.
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TPJCatholic:
In that pursuit one begins to know God in a deeper way. Many people find God in the valley of their lives, very few people find Him at the peaks.
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That is probably quite true, but as usual, the simplest explanation (Occam’s razor) suggest that during emotional distress one may easily mistake his own confused state of mind to some divine intervention.
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TPJCatholic:
God loves us so much that He never interferes with our gift of being able to freely choose. Because of this many bad things happen, yet God does not erase free will just because people suffer. It is one of His greatest gifts because He does not want a bunch of robotic humans that are forced to come to Him, He wants us to freely choose Him.
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That is another hairy problem. I don’t agree that “free will” is of utmost relevance, and even if it is, some people define it incorrectly. But I am willing to explore. However, let’s not bite off too much at the same time.
 
Gilbert Keith:
Hitetlin

…And finally, if the birth goes well, and the baby (finally a baby) draws his or her first breath. At that point the fetus finally becomes a legitimate human being.

I’ll try again: what was the fetus before it drew its first breath on its own?

A cow?
A rabbit?
A chicken?
A snake?
A human being waiting to take its first breath on its own?
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Depends on how much before? Six minutes before: it was an unborn human being (without legal rights - for example could not inherit). Six months before: it was a bunch of cells - a potential human being. Nine months before it was a freshly impregnated ovum. Please, I am tired of this nonsense, if you are unable, unwilling to understand the difference between a “potential” and the “finished” product, we shall be unable to achieve anything.

An egg is not the same as a chicken. An acorn is not equivalent to an oak tree. A student of medicine is not a doctor.
 
Gilbert Keith:
I think it was Chesterton who said it best: “The atheist look for God like a thief looks for a policeman.”

Not wanting to find Him.
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Not very smart and also pretty condescending. Atheist = thief. Do you think that such attitude will get you respect?

Now here is a joke (nothing more):

Philosophy is like a man in a totally dark room looking for a completely black cat. Religious philosophy is like a man in a totally dark room looking for a nonexistent black cat. Christian philosophy is like a man in a totally dark room looking for a nonexistent black cat, while shouting: I got it! I got it!

Now this is just a joke, but it sure is precise. Not like Chesterton’s feeble little bon-mot.
 
Having drifted from it’s original topic (Pascal’s wager), this thread is now closed.
 
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