Passport proves Cardinal George Pell’s point

[_Abyssinia]

CARDINAL George Pell has provided his full passport details in an extraordinary step to disprove allegations that have been made against him.

A former child victim of a paedophile Christian Brother has claimed that in 1969 Dr Pell, who was then a young priest, heard him pleading for help a few weeks after he had been raped.

The cardinal has this week given the Herald Sun access to a copy of his full passport showing his travel between the 1960s and 1970s. The passport makes it clear that Cardinal Pell was not in Australia in 1969. The Herald Sun reported on Monday that Paul Lyons, 55, had challenged the cardinal to prove he was not in Ballarat at the time he told priests at St Alipius Presbytery of his rape.

m.theaustralian.com.au/news/passport-proves-cardinal-george-pells-point/story-e6frg6n6-1227416933253

 

[Micosil]

The link pasted is the mobile version. The normal version is:

theaustralian.com.au/news/passport-proves-cardinal-george-pells-point/story-e6frg6n6-1227416933253

 

[agnes_therese]

I wonder if Mr. Lyons will apologize now.

 

[powerofk]

I wonder if Mr. Lyons will apologize now.

Probably not. Countries fail to stamp passports all the time. That’ll probably be his next claim.

By the way, I know countries fail to stamp passports all the time from experience. In 2000, when I went on pilgrimage to Rome for WYD 2000, the only time my passport was stamped was when I changed planes in Amsterdam on the way to Italy. It was never stamped in Italy, wasn’t stamped on my way back through Amsterdam, and wasn’t stamped as I re-entered the US.

 

[Hans_W]

Probably not. Countries fail to stamp passports all the time. That’ll probably be his next claim.

By the way, I know countries fail to stamp passports all the time from experience. In 2000, when I went on pilgrimage to Rome for WYD 2000, the only time my passport was stamped was when I changed planes in Amsterdam on the way to Italy. It was never stamped in Italy, wasn’t stamped on my way back through Amsterdam, and wasn’t stamped as I re-entered the US.

It used to be very lax before 2000 and got much more strict since 9/11

 

[_Abyssinia]

Probably not. Countries fail to stamp passports all the time. That’ll probably be his next claim.

By the way, I know countries fail to stamp passports all the time from experience. In 2000, when I went on pilgrimage to Rome for WYD 2000, the only time my passport was stamped was when I changed planes in Amsterdam on the way to Italy. It was never stamped in Italy, wasn’t stamped on my way back through Amsterdam, and wasn’t stamped as I re-entered the US.

What country and/or countries could have failed to stamp his passport if he had been in Australia at the time if the incident?

Do you mean he could have been in Oxford, but then returned to Australia, and may have not had his passport stamped?

 

[weller2]

Do you mean he could have been in Oxford, but then returned to Australia, and may have not had his passport stamped?

Passport stamps are mainly used for immigration control. So he gets a stamp when entering UK but on his way back

UK does not stamp his passport because he is leaving the country

Australia does not stamp his passport because he is a citizen returning home.

My passport has several US entry visa stamps, no US exit stamps and no EU reentry stamps.

 

[weller2]

By the way, I know countries fail to stamp passports all the time from experience. In 2000, when I went on pilgrimage to Rome for WYD 2000, the only time my passport was stamped was when I changed planes in Amsterdam on the way to Italy. It was never stamped in Italy, wasn’t stamped on my way back through Amsterdam, and wasn’t stamped as I re-entered the US.

You were stamped at AMS because you entered the EU. Theres no passport control on internal borders.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Passport stamps are mainly used for immigration control. So he gets a stamp when entering UK but on his way back

UK does not stamp his passport because he is leaving the country

Australia does not stamp his passport because he is a citizen returning home.

My passport has several US entry visa stamps, no US exit stamps and no EU reentry stamps.

Did you mean ‘but not in his way back’ second line of your post. I think you did.

I wonder what route Cardinal Pell claims to have taken, because there is no direct plane from the UK to Australia. In the 1960s, there may have been even more stop overs than there is today. Surely if he was going only by plane, that would have increased the chances of his passport being stamped, because he would have to stop over in another country or even countries to make the journey from the UK to Australia. Though I am not 100% sure if somebody changed planes in say Singapore, they would of checked the passport in 1969 and stamped it. But presumably the more airports you go through, it would increase the chance of the passport being stamped, if you are not a citizen of the country the airport is in?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

This is not new. Cardinal Pell rebutted an accusation by one Dr. Waller about a complaint of rape in 1969, when he was overseas. The following link dates back to 2013.

smh.com.au/national/pell-and-hart-outraged-over-allegations-20130329-2gz1c.html

Cardinal Pell said he was not in Australia when the boy was raped and did not go to Ballarat until 1971. Ms Waller replied that although the rape was in 1969, she did not say when the victim tried to tell him. Cardinal Pell went to court in November to get the transcript of the trial of the rapist, Brother Robert Best.

The statement posted on Thursday by Cardinal Pell’s media director Katrina Lee says the court transcript shows the victim did try to complain in 1969, when Cardinal Pell was overseas.

‘‘It is of some concern that Dr Waller made these false allegations against Cardinal Pell and then failed to retract them when it became apparent to her that they could not have been true,’’ Ms Lee says. ‘‘False accusations such as this are not only seriously defamatory but can (in certain circumstances) amount to a contempt of Parliament and professional misconduct. At the very least, the inquiry, the media and the public has been seriously misled.’’

There’s no doubt there has been abuse of children by a handful of priests in Australia, and like the US and Irish imbroglios, it has been badly handled by some Bishops and church authority figures.

But I also think Cardinal Pell is being singled out for a lot of unfair treatment over the issue.

None of this is new. My old Protestant pastor thought I’d become Catholic in due course and he died way back in January 1992. Yet even he told me there’d be trouble over child abuse claims in the Catholic Church, saying “From what I’ve heard, there’s been a lot of them.”

The old pastor himself ran an orphanage in Melbourne for some time, but there was no mud sticking to him. From what I’ve heard the kids were sorry to see him go. And one of the things they respected about him was that he just as tough a disciplinarian on his own sons as he was on them.

 

[Lion_IRC]

You were stamped at AMS because you entered the EU. Theres no passport control on internal borders.

“The passport makes it clear that Cardinal Pell was not in Australia in 1969.”

 

[Petaro]

A lot of the people posting seem to want to find some way around the obvious positive evidence of Cardinal Pell’s passport, in, what appears, to be a churlish and ill-motivated desire to keep him under the false accusation of his defamers.
It may be valuable to look at their own hearts for their reasons for these posts.
I, for one, have always supported the good man against over-emotive and now proven false claims.

 

[powerofk]

A lot of the people posting seem to want to find some way around the obvious positive evidence of Cardinal Pell’s passport, in, what appears, to be a churlish and ill-motivated desire to keep him under the false accusation of his defamers.
It may be valuable to look at their own hearts for their reasons for these posts.
I, for one, have always supported the good man against over-emotive and now proven false claims.

No, that’s not the case at all. I’m saying, first and foremost, that prosecutors, police, and the alleged victim can poke holes into the Cardinal’s alibi. I’m not saying I don’t believe the Cardinal - in fact, I do believe him. It’s simply anticipating the next move by his accuser.

 

[LongingSoul]

But I also think Cardinal Pell is being singled out for a lot of unfair treatment over the issue.

I really think this a sign of his genuine goodness and humility. He’s a threat to the powers of evil. Do you remember back in 2002 when the gay activists dressed in rainbow clothes to indicate they were active or pro gay… and then marched up to Cardinal (then Bishop) Pell to receive Communion? He of course refused them and suffered their wrath in the media for years after.

What was he supposed to do? They were all being a bunch of evil idiots. Even many gays thought Card. Pell had been unfairly targeted at the time.

We are very lucky to have him in the Australian Church!

 

[LongingSoul]

You were stamped at AMS because you entered the EU. Theres no passport control on internal borders.

I travelled around the UK and Europe for 6 months in 1982 and my passport was covered with stamps from every border. I imagine in 1969 prior to all the other electronic ways of keeping track of a traveller, stamps would have been the mainstay.

 

[weller2]

Did you mean ‘but not in his way back’ second line of your post. I think you did.

Well, you get the point.

I wonder what route Cardinal Pell claims to have taken, because there is no direct plane from the UK to Australia. In the 1960s, there may have been even more stop overs than there is today.

My coworker travelled from Poland to Japan in 1970s – he said that they would land, refuel without leaving the plane, and take off again. Nowadays, it’s organized so that transit passengers can change planes without crossing the border.

Anyway – if the Cardinal has matching entry / exit UK stamps, then I’d say that he has proof, if he has only entry stamps… not so much. But, there should also be other paperwork to demonstrate that he was inded in UK, such as records of trip expenses.

 

[OraLabora]

I traveled to Rome in 2013 with my wife. Italian customs did not stamp our passports upon entry; we’d arrived directly from Canada. On the way home, we connected via Frankfurt. German passport control upon exit gave us a really hard time as we had no stamp proving we’d entered Europe. We had to produce copies of our airline tickets to prove how and when we’d entered.

Moreover our luggage did not arrive at the same time we did. We speculated that there might have been a connection (having it pulled for further inspection).

My most recent trip to Rome was via Brussels last fall, and fortunately had my passport stamped in Brussels as I again connected through Frankfurt for the return trip.

 

[ARSpade]

That’s not necessarily true at all.
All anyone is saying is that the passport is not definitive proof that he wasn’t there, because many times a passport is not stamped when leaving or entering a new country.
I, too, have found that when I’m traveling thru Europe, some countries stamp my passport and others do not.

He kept his passport that’s over forty years old?

.

Are you claiming he forged the passport?

Also, the accuser seemed to think the passport would prove he’d been back to Australia. And now the goalposts move.

 

[graciew]

That’s not necessarily true at all.
All anyone is saying is that the passport is not definitive proof that he wasn’t there, because many times a passport is not stamped when leaving or entering a new country.
I, too, have found that when I’m traveling thru Europe, some countries stamp my passport and others do not.

He kept his passport that’s over forty years old?

.

I do keep mine. I believe that for one reason or another in my country I have four or five.
It is our responsibility to check that passports are stamped too after inmigration,btw. It may be messy if not when applying for visas in some countries where last entries are required. That is a good way to remember,reading the stamping.

Ps when I wrote " for one reason or another in my country" I forgot to add the icons :hypno::bigyikes:

 

[graciew]

Are you claiming he forged the passport?

Also, the accuser seemed to think the passport would prove he’d been back to Australia. And now the goalposts move.

This is absurd. He has got proof in his passports. So now he is punished for being tidy.
He did what he had to,have his stamping.
Once again,US is very strict for instance with paperwork,I must have around 15 to 20 entries with no issue .
Records are kept,if one does not have stamping it becomes OUR problem when applying for visas if we enter wrong dates.
Looking for fault here is punishing the cardinal who has his paperwork ok. It gets to be enervating,and it should be to you all who are so particularly tidy at that. A great thing,btw.which I do respect and admire.