Pastor omitting "men" in Creed

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georgeaquinas

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Our pastor omitts the word “men” when he recites the Creed. Instead of saying “for us men and our salvation” he says “for us (pause) in our salvation.”

I know he has been approached about his before and his reply referenced inclusive langauge.

I have e-mailed the diocese office and the suggested that I talk to the pastor and also suggested that what he was doing was not that big of a deal.

Thoughts and suggestions?
 
My University Center too. It becomes “For Us and Our Salvation” and Jesus becomes “flesh” not “man.”

ARGH!!

I say it the right way, I find little point complaining to the priest.
 
Just because the pastor says it no one else needs to! Start talking to others before and after Mass.
 
my former parish switched monsignors and the new one was a softie who did this very thing. He also sanctioned a wreckovation of the Church, so I counsel that this liturgical abuse may just be the tip of the iceberg for what you can expect from your “pastor.” Does anyone know the best way to deal with the liturgical abuses of this and other priests? They are apparently incapable of self-discipline…
 
Our pastor started omitting ‘men’ about 5 years ago. He also says ‘became A man’, presumably out of respect for the Mary Daly line that ‘if God is man, then man is God’.

At first, the whole congregation still did the prayer as printed in the missalette.

Then the priest started omitting the creed entirely, claiming it ‘lost meaning’ if said every week. For quite a while, we’d only have the creed a couple times a year.

Now we’re back to praying it [almost] every week, but everyone [other than me] now says it the way Father wants: he broke them of the habbit of ‘men’ and ‘man’, I guess.

I honestly think this is the wave of the future: I’d wager in 20 years, no one will even remember the correct words…

sam
 
I too had a problem with my Pastor when I first moved here. He omitted the Creed on a regular basis. When I “confronted” him I basically shamed him into saying it. The strange thing about some of the other folks here is when I tried to talk to them about it, they denied he’d omitted it! Oi. Like God isn’t watching or only sees what they do. HELLO! Unfortunately, there is still plenty of abuse of the Sacraments here. I’ve complained myself into being ostracized. That’s a pain. Some of the abuses have stopped, others have just continued. I figure when these guys leave or pass away, things will either go back to the way they are supposed to be or we’ll get guys who are worse still. Abuse of the liturgy has happened since St. Paul corrected the Corinthians. That doesn’t make it okay. But it does prove that we will go on in spite of this. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail even if those who would open them are on the inside!

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
Here’s a link to a good article that addresses “inclusivism.” It also links to a an official document, Liturgiam Authenticam, which will hopefully result in a forthcoming revised liturgy that will correct some of the problems and abuses we see today. Of course, if Fr. Feelgood still chooses to do it his way, it may not help your local situation. Maybe your Bishop will fix that problem.

adoremus.org/0601newera.html
 
Our priest not only omits the word “men”, but changes anything he doesn’t like. He has added an extra “sign of peace” at the beginning of Mass (he calls it a greeting, but it looks just like the sign of peace to most of us!), he added an extra alleluia after the Gospel reading, he avoids the words sin & sacrifice, completely changing the words after the Lamb of God . He also can’t tell a joke to save his life, but he keeps trying. Very painful! 😛 We’ve been praying for his transfer for over 3 years & he’s leaving at the end of month.

We’re hoping & praying the new priest is more orthodox. Going to another parish is not an option for those of us out in the boonies - 3 parishes, 1 priest. The next parish is too far, especially in winter.

I’ve noticed that more of the young priests are orthodox, while those my age are still stuck in the 60’s.
 
Our priest also omits the word “men” from the creed. I always say it anyway, and I’m not the only one. Recently I’ve begun noticing those around me are saying “men” as well. This past Sunday, it sounded like most of the congregation said it, even though I could see the priest had not.
 
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Mary1973:
I say “men” good and loudly.
Excellent! I was attending daily Mass occassionlly at the Cathedral. I always ended up sitting next to the most annoying FemiNazi woman who refused to use any male pronouns in reference to God - “For our good and the good of all God’s Church” and similar things. So I started shouting “HIS” in her general direction at these parts. After a week or 2 I heard someone after Mass greet her with a “Good morning sister” :rolleyes:

James
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Just because the pastor says it no one else needs to! Start talking to others before and after Mass.
The only problem that I have with this is that it may cause dissension in the church, which would be the opposite of unity, which would be anathema to true “communion.”

There must be a better way than a coup or uprising.

Aren’t we supposed to submit to the authority of the pastor? He at least deserves a private conversation instead of dissension among the ranks.

It would be horrible if the discontent among the Catholic brothers and sisters drove someone out of the Church.
 
OIt’s not big enough to get your shorts in a knot about.
The grace of the Mass itself covers all our mistakes.
 
It is a serious problem when a priest changes the liturgy. The Church teaches that no priest, in and of himself, has the authority to change the Mass. It is a serious offence when parts of the Mass, e.g., the Creed, are change. It is changes like this that lead to heresies. If your pastor will not remedy the situation after you approach him, I would suggest that you write a letter to your bishop.
 
Before everyone gets really upset, let’s stop and look at this rationally. First, no bishop, priest, deacon or layperson has the right to change the prayers of the Church. They belong to the Church, not to the individual. The Church has decided that the word “men” is to be used in the Creed ("…for us men and for our salvation…"). The Greek uses the word anthropous which, in this plural form, refers to humanity, not to males specifically. The problem is that English does not have an equivalent term and so the translation becomes problematic.

Because English uses the masculine form for cases where gender is unknown or where both genders are included, there is a problem for some women who feel excluded.

Nevertheless, the Church has spoken and we, as Her children, are to obey. When a problem like this arises one should gently speak with the offending cleric and, if there is no resolution, take it to the bishop in writing mentioning what has been done to attempt to resolve the error. If one does not get a satisfactory response from the bishop, one can always write to Rome.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
The Church has decided that the word “men” is to be used in the Creed ("…for us men and for our salvation…"). The Greek uses the word anthropous which, in this plural form, refers to humanity, not to males specifically. The problem is that English does not have an equivalent term and so the translation becomes problematic.

Because English uses the masculine form for cases where gender is unknown or where both genders are included, there is a problem for some women who feel excluded.
A female tiger has no problem if you refer to her as just a tiger. She will kill you and eat you just as fast as if you had called her a tigress.

Female men (wo-men) need to get over the language issues and realize that they are just as much men as those of us with different equipment.

DaveBj
 
Several of you mentioned this and it disturbs me greatly.

As far as I can tell, the “Creed” is part of the Order of Worship for all Masses. The only exception, that I have observed, is on Easter where we renew our Baptismal vows. In essance, each week we are renewing our Baptismal vows and affirming ourselves as Catholic Christians by delcaring to God what we as Catholics believe. If you look at it closely, the “Nicene Creed” and the “Apostles Creed” contains the heart of our Catholic beliefs. We are proclaiming who we are as Church, which shouldn’t be taken lightly.

As for inclusionary language. I think those who are so steadfast in changing everything to generic forms becaue you don’t want to “offend” anyone, ought to get over it. The only line of the “Creed” that, in my opinion, that is an option of using “man” or “human” is: “By the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man/human.” Some in my church say “man” others say “human”. Doesn’t bother me one bit.

Sometimes, I feel, that when we start nitpick at everything, we start losing the essence of what we are doing means.
 
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chrystl:
Sometimes, I feel, that when we start nitpick at everything, we start losing the essence of what we are doing means.
Amen! The focus on others at Mass and what they are doing or not doing could be very distracting from our worship of God.
 
Interesting posts. This is another example of why language actually is important…and those posters who think that the vast grace of the mass is enought to expunge willful errors need to read the GIRM, Aquinas, and Augustine.

“Qui propter nos HOMINES, et propter nostram salutem…et HOMO factus est.” This is the creed. Period. The problem, as some have cited, is that “homo” is relatively generic in the first sense, and absolutely not generic in the second. To say “for us people and for our salvation” is really an acceptable translation (while “for us and for our salvation” is clearly not), though the English NOM service* says “men.” However, one should say, “and was made MAN” in the second. Latin, like English, does have ambiguous words; while “vir” is sex-specific, “homo” can be used in both specific and non-specific ways.
  • Lest I be flamed, I realize that the mass is a Holy Sacrifice, and that protestants have “services.” In this sense, I merely mean the form of worship (really, as “ordo caeremoniae missae”).
 
Men means people. We seem to have drifted away from the old terms, now using “humankind” however I think men should be used in the creed. Our priests always use men in the creed. I sometimes wondered why they hadn’t attacked this and it doesnt surprise me that they did. I would say men but not make a big thing or a big distraction out of it. The Mass is still the Mass whether they use the proper language in thecreed or not, but if you want you can take up the matter with the priest. I am not certain, but I think we are required to use “men” in the creed. However, I know that the word men means all people. I even think the word men should be used in church songs. (Joy to the world, for example. Old term, “let men, their songs employ.” New “Let all, their songs employ” All OF their songs? Oops.
 
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