Pastor Style

[The_Curt_Jester]

Catholics today are not illiterate unintelligent serfs of middle ages. They can recognize someone who is uncomfortable with Vatican II changes. They see the dangers of the slippery slope.

I think it’s important to note that being illiterate is not a sign of being unintelligent. If you were to grow up on an island with no schools and nobody to teach you, you could be the most intelligent person in the world and probably still wouldn’t know how to read. I often think that people back then were more intelligent than we are now. If you take a look at all the amazing things they were able to do without our modern technology, it’s astonishing. I’d like to see people these days pick up some of the tools of the middle ages and try to construct anything half as good. I also believe that people back then, though perhaps simple, were much more aware of their own Catholic faith than the lackluster Catholics of modern times. I would make a guess that many of those who are complaining the loudest about the poor priests in that Wisconsin church likely have very little understanding of their religion.

Also, since I have the experience of working in Catholic churches, I have been able to see first hand much of how things go. Let me tell you, more Catholics than we’d like to think are, to put it mildly, despicable. Parishioners, as a rule almost, will not go to the pastor about anything. They will talk behind their backs, spread rumors, backstab, tell lies, and pretty much do anything and everything they can to make life miserable for the pastor should they disagree with him. But one thing that is rare - very rare - is a person who will actually respectfully take his complaint to him and then LISTEN to the reasons he gives for why something is the way it is. If that reason is in line with the Church then there is no ground for pushing further.

I think some people need to be tied to a chair and have to listen to a recording of the teaching of the Church, the catechism, GIRM, and several other documents. If that doesn’t do it, maybe someone can stand behind them with a rubber bat and pound it into their heads, because that may be the only way our modern ignorant peasants will have anything sink in.

 

[Laetus]

Something has caught my attention over the last week and I am having a hard time letting it go. The Bishop of Madison, Wi has given a warning to the parrishoners of had expressed displeasure with a newly appointed pastor. I read the letter and the bishop stated that everything the pastor did was “stylistic” and -]new/-] not heresy or false teaching, so the parrishoners should accept it. .

I think this has a great deal to do with tact. Let’s take the female altar server situation. Rather than make a pronouncement that all servers will henceforth be males (which is sure to antagonize many, right or wrong) why not handle it in a far more subtle and diplomatic manner? Quietly recruit more males and slowly start to schedule them more and more until only males are being scheduled. Want to be more upfront about it? Create a knights and pages of the altar (servers) group for men and boys and a handmaids/handmaidens (sacristans) group for women and girls. And make a big deal out of both as they are critical ministries.

I think some actually enjoy seeing others being antagonized. “But we aren’t doing anything wrong!” isn’t an excuse.

 

[Laetus]

Vatican II did not permit female altar servers. That was an illicit practice that was widespread in the United States and parts of Europe (and unthinkable in most of the rest of the world) that was only recently given grudging permission under Pope John Paul II for use in places where there is a shortage of young men, such as in a girls’ school. A pastor is fully within his right to restrict altar servers to males only.

Female servers are allowed by the Church. Both the bishop and the local pastor can limit the ministry to males only. If they do it should be done with extreme tact. The rest is noise.

 

[Laetus]

From what I can see, it doesn’t appear the parishoners have tried to work with the local clergy at all.

Instead, they petition and complain to the Bishop about what they think the priest(s) are doing wrong. (very immature and irresponsible)

In each response that I read, the Bishop has defended his positions, and the priests involved. You would think after this length of time, they would get the hint. It is the parishoners, and not the priests that are the problem…

It is just a shame they cannot see that, and I pray that their eyes, minds, and hearts be open.

Sorta reminds me of US automakers in the 1970’s when they claimed the problem was with their customers and not their products or their competitors …

Deal with people poorly enough (no matter who is right or wrong) and all that will happen is more and more people leave the Church. I don’t think this was a matter of the pastor wanting to limit serving at the altar to males. I think the problem was with how the change was communicated and introduced.

 

[robertmidwest]

If that doesn’t do it, maybe someone can stand behind them with a rubber bat and pound it into their heads, because that may be the only way our modern ignorant peasants will have anything sink in.

WOW!!! You must have a career in customer service.

I don’t belong to this parish, but that is probably the condescending attitude that turned so many off.

 

[robertmidwest]

Deal with people poorly enough (no matter who is right or wrong) and all that will happen is more and more people leave the Church. I don’t think this was a matter of the pastor wanting to limit serving at the altar to males. I think the problem was with how the change was communicated and introduced.

Very good analogy.

 

[robertmidwest]

Sorta reminds me of US automakers in the 1970’s when they claimed the problem was with their customers and not their products or their competitors …

Deal with people poorly enough (no matter who is right or wrong) and all that will happen is more and more people leave the Church. I don’t think this was a matter of the pastor wanting to limit serving at the altar to males. I think the problem was with how the change was communicated and introduced.

Very good analogy.

 

[1ke]

Sorta reminds me of US automakers in the 1970’s when they claimed the problem was with their customers and not their products or their competitors …

We are not customers, we are subjects in the Kingdom and God has placed or bishops and priests in lawful authority.

Deal with people poorly enough (no matter who is right or wrong) and all that will happen is more and more people leave the Church. I don’t think this was a matter of the pastor wanting to limit serving at the altar to males. I think the problem was with how the change was communicated and introduced.

That changes could have been handled differently has been acknowledged and apologies issued. However, the troublemakers have a different agenda and reject such outreach by the priests.

SHAME ON THEM.

 

[superamazingman]

Female servers are allowed by the Church. Both the bishop and the local pastor can limit the ministry to males only. If they do it should be done with extreme tact. The rest is noise.

What you say is technically correct, but I’d think it’s the other way around.

Male servers are allowed by the church, and the holy father, bishop, local pastor, and celebrant can use females only if he wants to, and all of those above him allow it.

 

[superamazingman]

I don’t belong to this parish, but that is probably the condescending attitude that turned so many off.

You can all say whatever you want, but in no way are they being condescending. Anyone who attends the parish or knows the situation first hand knows that. I can’t find the news article right now, but there was an instance where a woman went into a 1-on-1 meeting with the one of the priests very frustrated and angry, and left telling everyone how kind, gentle, and that she had a sense she was loved and cared for. That doesn’t happen after meeting with an angry condescending priest. That happens after meeting with a loving, Godly priest who loves our Lord and the church.

 

[robertmidwest]

There is news article about the pastor praising a kid who said non Catholic don’t go to heaven. When questioned about what happens to non Catholics when they die the kids response was “They go to hell.” The priest gave him a high five and said “I like the way you think.” That sounds beyond condescending to me–downright hateful. I think it was the same article talked about a parishoner who’s husband was Lutheran. She left the church and attend the Lutheran church now because of this pastors teaching.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is news article about the pastor praising a kid who said non Catholic don’t go to heaven. When questioned about what happens to non Catholics when they die the kids response was “They go to hell.” The priest gave him a high five and said “I like the way you think.” That sounds beyond condescending to me–downright hateful. I think it was the same article talked about a parishoner who’s husband was Lutheran. She left the church and attend the Lutheran church now because of this pastors teaching.

The article reported this, but it sounds suspiciously like hearsay gossip and has no basis.

I will point out that the parishioners have yet to prove one thing that these priests have done that contradict Church teaching.

 

[superamazingman]

There is news article about the pastor praising a kid who said non Catholic don’t go to heaven. When questioned about what happens to non Catholics when they die the kids response was “They go to hell.” The priest gave him a high five and said “I like the way you think.” That sounds beyond condescending to me–downright hateful. I think it was the same article talked about a parishoner who’s husband was Lutheran. She left the church and attend the Lutheran church now because of this pastors teaching.

I seriously doubt that happened, knowing these priests. There have been lies that have simply been made up about them in the past in an attempt to destroy their reputation, and this is probably another one of those. It would be very out of character for them, I can’t picture any of them saying that.

 

[robertmidwest]

redcardigan.blogspot.com/2012/05/platteville-again.html

ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/wisconsin-bishop-threatens-denial-sacraments-rumors-and-gossip

I have to correct my last post: she left for a Methodist church, not Lutheran.

Here is the real reason the story bugs me: Why is it everytime someone speaks up they are told “Hold on there you’re getting close to causing a scandal!!”

My parish is one of the one in the media lately about Bishops moving pedophile priests around instead of turning them into the police. I got into a facebook debate with associate of mine and that was his copout answer. Not the only debate I have had with him and this is always the standard cop out answer. Hello, we are not stupid!. Can we not speak up to hold Bishops accountable? Everytime someone speaks up, the response is “you’re getting pretty close to heresy there!!!”

 

[YoungTradCath]

redcardigan.blogspot.com/2012/05/platteville-again.html

ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/wisconsin-bishop-threatens-denial-sacraments-rumors-and-gossip

I have to correct my last post: she left for a Methodist church, not Lutheran.

Here is the real reason the story bugs me: Why is it everytime someone speaks up they are told “Hold on there you’re getting close to causing a scandal!!”

My parish is one of the one in the media lately about Bishops moving pedophile priests around instead of turning them into the police. I got into a facebook debate with associate of mine and that was his copout answer. Not the only debate I have had with him and this is always the standard cop out answer. Hello, we are not stupid!. Can we not speak up to hold Bishops accountable? Everytime someone speaks up, the response is “you’re getting pretty close to heresy there!!!”

Oh my. The National Catholic Reporter is so helplessly dissident that I strongly caution you to take everything, everything they report with a grain of salt. If they report that the sky is blue, by God, you better go outside to make sure. I’m not really kidding.

Can you elaborate on the part about heresy? I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[superamazingman]

Everytime someone speaks up, the response is “you’re getting pretty close to heresy there!!!”

What would you rather us say when you are treading close to heresey? Sorry if you don’t want to hear it, but it’s the truth.

 

[superamazingman]

Oh my. The National Catholic Reporter is so helplessly dissident that I strongly caution you to take everything, everything they report with a grain of salt. If they report that the sky is blue, by God, you better go outside to make sure. I’m not really kidding.

Can you elaborate on the part about heresy? I don’t understand what you mean.

He’s talking about this:

robertmidwest;9357606:

The parishoners are not ignorant. They see the changes being made in their parish as the begining of heading down a slippery slope of regressing to Pre Vatican II days. I am proud of them for standing up for themselves.

You’re getting very close to heresy here. The pre VII church is still the same as the post VII church, and by the way, most of the things that happened after VII were not actually asked for by VII, but rather were innovations made up by those who thought they knew better. Throwing out the new innovations that never should have been there is in no way regressing. Let’s look at a few:

• Altar servers: Males still have preference (Prot. N.2451/00/L, google it)
• Mass in Latin: The majority should still be in latin (Sacrosanctum Concilium no. 36, A VII document, I might add)
• Gregorian Chant: still the norm (Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 116)

Your point is?

 

[superamazingman]

Oh my. The National Catholic Reporter is so helplessly dissident that I strongly caution you to take everything, everything they report with a grain of salt. If they report that the sky is blue, by God, you better go outside to make sure. I’m not really kidding.

Can you elaborate on the part about heresy? I don’t understand what you mean.

He’s talking about this (I believe):

robertmidwest;9357606:

The parishoners are not ignorant. They see the changes being made in their parish as the begining of heading down a slippery slope of regressing to Pre Vatican II days. I am proud of them for standing up for themselves.

You’re getting very close to heresy here. The pre VII church is still the same as the post VII church, and by the way, most of the things that happened after VII were not actually asked for by VII, but rather were innovations made up by those who thought they knew better. Throwing out the new innovations that never should have been there is in no way regressing. Let’s look at a few:

• Altar servers: Males still have preference (Prot. N.2451/00/L, google it)
• Mass in Latin: The majority should still be in latin (Sacrosanctum Concilium no. 36, A VII document, I might add)
• Gregorian Chant: still the norm (Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 116)

Your point is?

 

[robertmidwest]

I think that if it is only matter of style and people leave the Church because of that, then it is simply their decision to pick apostasy over salvation.

 

[robertmidwest]

I think that if it is only matter of style and people leave the Church because of that, then it is simply their decision to pick apostasy over salvation.
If you look at the financial situation of the school you can see that the problem was pre-existing and the lack of funding from power hungry and faith lacking parishoners only aggravated things.

You’re getting very close to heresy here. The pre VII church is still the same as the post VII church, and by the way, most of the things that happened after VII were not actually asked for by VII, but rather were innovations made up by those who thought they knew better. Throwing out the new innovations that never should have been there is in no way regressing. Let’s look at a few:

• Altar servers: Males still have preference (Prot. N.2451/00/L, google it)
• Mass in Latin: The majority should still be in latin (Sacrosanctum Concilium no. 36, A VII document, I might add)
• Gregorian Chant: still the norm (Sacrosanctum Concilium, no. 116)

Your point is?