Pastoral Reasons for not kneeling in the GIRM

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Not being rude at all.
It is not rude to call a post nonsense?
I disagree.

The OP asked for reasons for the standing norm–

The Communion procession, rather than the up & down is one.

The shortage of priests is another.

The advanced age of both the clergy and the congregation is another. Those who can kneel, can stand, but many who can stand cannot kneel, and it is more difficult for the priest to bend to give Communion.
Are you saying then that the Holy Father is guilty of gross liturgical abuse by requiring that those receiving Holy Communion from him do so kneeling and on the tongue?
Again you are not reading what I posted. I said I disagree with ignoring a norm. Certainly the Pope can set up provisions for kneeling and use that station to give Holy Communion. My point is that if you request the congregation to ignore one norm, don’t be surprised if they ignore another.

Lux
 
PS and another reason for the receiving in the hand is the greasy lipstick which some people insist on wearing when receiving by mouth.
 
Here is what Cardinal Arinze told to the US Bishops on how to interpret this part of GIRM 43
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
The mens (reasoning) is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
  • Prot. n. 855/03/L
So the call of ‘uniformity of posture’ is not to be regulated in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit during various parts of the Mass would no longer be free to do so.
 
Hi,

Could you post a link to this document? I believe this was referring to the time for thanksgiving after Communion.

Lux
 
Hi,

Could you post a link to this document? I believe this was referring to the time for thanksgiving after Communion.

Lux
That was the specific question, yes. But the response dealt not only just with that, but with the “various parts” of the Mass.
5 June 2003
Prot. n. 855/03/L
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect
 
Hi,

The original post was reasons for the standing posture for the reception of Holy Communion.

I don’t agree that this response to a situation where no posture is specifically instructed has bearing on situations where there is a specific instruction or on the reasons for a standing norm for Holy Communion.

Lux
 
Hi,

The original post was reasons for the standing posture for the reception of Holy Communion.

I don’t agree that this response to a situation where no posture is specifically instructed has bearing on situations where there is a specific instruction or on the reasons for a standing norm for Holy
Communion.

Lux
You mentioned Unified Posture as a reason that one should stand.

So the next step is to look at Liturgical Case Law, so to speak, to see what the Vatican actually means by “Unified Posture”

This responsum shows that the Vatican clearly views ‘Unified Posture’ in broader terms than you do ( “broad limits” to use the specific phrase).

Note that Cardinal Arinze, in his response, notes that the approval of the Unified Posture mentioned in GIRM 43 is to be broadly applied, not just in the specific circumstances requested by Cardinal George, but elsewhere in the Mass as well.
 
And also, this dubium was a question directed to the Vatican based on posture directives.

Several US bishops had instituted an instruction directing the faithful to stand until everyone had finished receiving the Eucharist.

In this response, Cardinal Arinze demonstrated that they (like priests who issue instructions the faithful to stand to receive Communion) do not have the authority to do so.

The argument those bishops made, like you are making now, was based on the concept of “Unified Posture”. That some of the faithful kneeling while others are standing violated the GIRM.

Cardinal Arinze, showed that such an understanding of Posture was in error.
 
Hi again,

You are discussing a different situation than what is asked here.

I have given some reasons I have heard for the standing norm—it is not up to anyone to decide whether or not they are valid. The norm has been approved. It will not be changed, unless there is some miraculous call for many vocations. I disagree with the qualifications given later. Some out of the way diocese will never see these qualifications, so it is just a matter for confusion.

If I wished to kneel, I would speak to my pastor and see if some suitable arrangement could be made. I would not force my preference. I feel respect for my pastor is more important than my personal preference. We have many rights, but it is not always best to demand them.

This is how I feel—many disagree.

Lux
 
.

I have given some reasons I have heard for the standing norm—it is not up to anyone to decide whether or not they are valid.
Actually it is, the Vatican is responsible for determining it’s validity. But you are correct, no one else is responsible.
The norm has been approved. It will not be changed, unless there is some miraculous call for many vocations. I disagree with the qualifications given later.
You can disagree all you want, it does not make them any less valid ( and BTW, the qualifications were not given ‘later’ they were given by the Vatican prior to approval.) They Vatican later clarified what it meant when it specificied that the qualifications be added)
Some out of the way diocese will never see these qualifications, so it is just a matter for confusion.
Not true, every bishop is sent a copy of Notatae
If I wished to kneel, I would speak to my pastor and see if some suitable arrangement could be made.
Not a bad idea, but the obligation would be on him to make the arrangements, as he has no authority to do otherwise
I would not force my preference. I feel respect for my pastor is more important than my personal preference. We have many rights, but it is not always best to demand them.
You are correct, that is your personal preference on the matter.

You are welcome to it,
 
You can disagree all you want, it does not make them any less valid ( and BTW, the qualifications were not given ‘later’ they were given by the Vatican prior to approval.) They Vatican later clarified what it meant when it specificied that the qualifications be added)
I am speaking of the approved GIRM. Any additions may not be read by an overworked priest in an out of the way parish. We know what the GIRM states, but we do not know the procedure for what happens after the person is instructed, kneels again, and the pastor instructs them to stand.

There are so many areas for problems with clear instructions. I cannot agree with the set up here. It is not helpful to the pastor or the communicant.

Lux
 
I agree. When our 3 parishes merged, our priest, (a young one), very traditional, made sure all 3 parishes were kneeling at the proper times. One of the parishes (mine:o ) was real loosy goosey regarding kneeling, our parish was still standing during the consecreation, (please excuse spelling…New Yrs lack of sleep) I think I was the only one kneeling. Father Nadeau is an awesome priest! He is now further up Maine (USA) bringing more parishes together, and these parishes will be catechetised properly. I think I better go back to bed.

Happy New Year all!

Love,
Claire
Among the Frozen Chozen in ME USA
Ooo… was Fr. Nadeau at the cathedral in Portland a few years back? I lived there for a year and his name sounds really familiar. If he was, I absolutely loved him! He was/is an awesome priest! My husband, who was my boyfriend at that time, used to love attending mass there with me when he’d come up from Boston to visit me for the day. We both thought he was so great and so different from what we had in our childhood and high school years.

And to be on topic… I also just want to read more about these reasons not to kneel during mass.
 
And to be on topic… I also just want to read more about these reasons not to kneel during mass.
Hi,

Actually the topic is reasons for standing for the reception of Holy Communion, which is the norm in the US. Kneeling at the instructed times is not the question.

Lux
 
Hi,

Actually the topic is reasons for standing for the reception of Holy Communion, which is the norm in the US. Kneeling at the instructed times is not the question.

Lux
Thanks. I didn’t mean kneeling at the instructed times during mass, but I can see how my post was taken that way.

For me, although everything in my soul wants to receive the Eucharist kneeling, I will “do as the Romans do” in the parishes in my area. There are few parishes that do the EF and receive kneeling there, but never get a chance to travel that far to attend those masses. I’m lucky to have a few very reverent OF masses around me and luckily people bow and genuflect before receiving communion, so that is the best I can give without looking out of place.
 
A few reasons that occur to me for the norm, that could be useful as explanations.
  1. Safety for others in the procession. There is more chance someone tripping if someone kneels, particularly if it happens unexpectedly.
People should slow down in the communion line if they risk tripping over someone who stops to kneel. People who kneel should be careful not to be too sudden about it either.
  1. Safety for the person kneeling. There is more effort required for someone to get onto their kneels and back to their feet.
That should be up to the individual communicant. If you have someone who insists on kneeling, but causes a disruption because they have trouble getting back up, the priest should talk to them and ask them to kneel in their pew (and he will bring them communion), or to receive standing.
  1. Back ache for the Communion minister. If someone is kneeling the Communion minister will be required to bend over further to give them Communion.
Offer it up! Sorry- I’m sure priests got backaches before the 70’s, when everybody knelt- and I’m sure that’s what they did.
  1. Dignity of the laity. By standing the lay people are receiving Communion in a manner more similar to the way the priest does at Mass.
It is not undignified to kneel before God. We are not God- or equal to Him. He is the King of Kings, and it is appropriate to kneel before Him.

I am sure if it were practical to do so, the priests would kneel, and would crawl around on their hands and knees from the consecration to the end of Mass- to show reverence to God. As it is, it is only practical for the laity to kneel to receive.
  1. Single posture adding to the beauty of the celebration. From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM):
    “42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
    A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
Who is to say that common posture should not be kneeling? It worked just fine for centuries.
  1. Less time to receive Communion standing. It would take longer for people to kneel to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. Thus more Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion would be required for the distribution of Communion in a reasonable time.
Actually, my experience has been the opposite. When people receive kneeling at the communion rail, the priest walks up and down the row, distributing communion to each person who is already waiting- and he doesn’t have to wait for them to move so the next one can come up.
  1. More space required for kneeling. If everyone were kneeling, perhaps the first row of seats would need to be removed. So the church would only be able to seat fewer people.
You need about two feet between the altar and the first row of pews in the front of the church for a communion rail. If that’s a problem, they should move the altar further back (preferably all the way to the wall, but that’s for a different thread).
  1. It is the decision of the Conference of Bishops. The GIRM is explicit about this being their decision:
    “390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the
    recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
    • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);

    • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);”
  1. Expense of kneelers. Having a kneeler, the way Benedict XVI does, takes time to set up. At www.kneeler.com such a Prie Dieu costs $US 210 plus $US 30 shipping. One in front of each Communion minister adds up.
Then don’t have any communion ministers- have a communion rail and let the priest distribute communion alone. Let only consecrated hands touch the Sacrament.
  1. Avoiding individualism. From the GIRM:
    "95. … Thus, they are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have only one Father in heaven and accordingly are all brothers and sisters to each other.
  2. Indeed, they form one body, whether by hearing the word of God, or by joining in the prayers and the singing, or above all by the common offering of Sacrifice and by a common partaking at the Lord’s table. This unity is beautifully apparent from the gestures and postures observed in common by the faithful."
Have everybody kneel…individualism avoided.

I’m no a fanatic traditionalist by any means, but in these days where indifference and sacrilige against the Eucharist is sadly all too common, we need people to show profound reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament. A simple way to do this is to receive Our Lord on our tongue and on our knees.

I don’t remember the last time I received communion standing- I pray that whenever it was, it was my last time to do so.
 
I am sure if it were practical to do so, the priests would kneel, and would crawl around on their hands and knees from the consecration to the end of Mass- to show reverence to God.
Considering how many I’ve run into who don’t even genuflect at the consecration I’m not sure you’re correct in this assertion.

That said, we have a few people in our parish who kneel for Communion and it’s not a problem for anyone except those who want to see nothing that reminds them of what ‘used to be’.

The only thing I wonder about why they kneel to receive, genuflect to an empty tabernacle on their way back to their pew but totally ignore the chalice as they walk in front of the EMHC holding it.
 
Have everybody kneel…individualism avoided.
But the norm is standing, and unless that is changed, more people will stand.
I’m no a fanatic traditionalist by any means, but in these days where indifference and sacrilige against the Eucharist is sadly all too common, we need people to show profound reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament. A simple way to do this is to receive Our Lord on our tongue and on our knees.
This is fine, if there are provisions, and they do not get saliva or lipstick on the fingers of the minister. So many people refuse the cup because of germs—there are far more passed with the saliva transfer from Communion on the tongue.

Another way to show reverence is to set aside our personal preferences and respect our priests.

Lux
 
This is fine, if there are provisions, and they do not get saliva or lipstick on the fingers of the minister. So many people refuse the cup because of germs—there are far more passed with the saliva transfer from Communion on the tongue.
"There has never been a recorded case of disease transmission through the practice of Communion on the tongue."

This Made Up Fact[SUP]TM[/SUP] brought to you by the *Sauce for the Goose Commission *as equal time for all the people who make up the “fact” that “there has never been a recorded case of disease transmission via the common cup”.

tee
 
But the norm is standing, and unless that is changed, more people will stand.

This is fine, if there are provisions, and they do not get saliva or lipstick on the fingers of the minister. So many people refuse the cup because of germs—there are far more passed with the saliva transfer from Communion on the tongue.

Another way to show reverence is to set aside our personal preferences and respect our priests.

Lux

Following the Church — the norm is either kneeling or standing. True reverence is-- for priests, bishops, and laity to set aside their anti-kneeling agendas and listen to and follow the mind of the Church.
 

Following the Church — the norm is either kneeling or standing. True reverence is-- for priests, bishops, and laity to set aside their anti-kneeling agendas and listen to and follow the mind of the Church.
the norm is either kneeling or standing.
You seem to forget the rest of this instruction “as determined by the conference of bishops”.

Kneelers have permission to ignore the US norm. I know this. I am saying that this is not a good situation. If you give permission to ignore one norm, don’t be surprised when others are ignored, but this is off topic anyway

Lux
 
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