Pat madrid warns protestants about their salvation

[marineboy]

in the mid 90’s pat madrid debated james white on sola scriptura–at the end of the debate he warned those who were not catholic that they run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church–let’s not forget that protestants may be “our seperated brethern” whatever that means–but their beliefs have been condemned as heresy–and yes they do run the risk of going to hell—of course if they are invincibely ignorant they can still get to heaven–i know i know–but we dont know who is invincibely ignorant so lets assume no one is–this coupled with Christ’s own words that the road to salvation is narrow and few go down it–but the road to destruction is wide and many go through it–also remember the teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation”—pius xii in humani generis says that we cannot make “outside the church there is no salvation” a meaningless phrase----so lets keep in mind that in talking to protestants muslims jews and all other people that are not under the pope that they need christ’s truth cause they may end up in hell–

 

[jimmy]

marineboy:

in the mid 90’s pat madrid debated james white on sola scriptura–at the end of the debate he warned those who were not catholic that they run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church–let’s not forget that protestants may be “our seperated brethern” whatever that means–but their beliefs have been condemned as heresy–and yes they do run the risk of going to hell—of course if they are invincibely ignorant they can still get to heaven–i know i know–but we dont know who is invincibely ignorant so lets assume no one is–this coupled with Christ’s own words that the road to salvation is narrow and few go down it–but the road to destruction is wide and many go through it–also remember the teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation”—pius xii in humani generis says that we cannot make “outside the church there is no salvation” a meaningless phrase----so lets keep in mind that in talking to protestants muslims jews and all other people that are not under the pope that they need christ’s truth cause they may end up in hell–

I agree, they may go to Heaven, but there is also a good chance that they may go to hell, so we must treat it as if they are all going to hell. We must treat the Catholic Church as the only true church, which it is.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

I’m sorry, I can’t truly believe that a sincere Protestant who does not accept the Catholic Church and faith are condemned to hell, or even have a good chance of going there. If they have a true heart, and despite hearing all the proof on the Eucharist and Mary, etc, and still reject it because they truly do not believe it yet truly love Jesus and truly believe in him as God, then they cannot possibly be going to hell.

God is a good God and not just a God for Catholics. Where as I do believe we have the fullness of faith, God will judge us by our hearts. Maybe their purification through Purgatory will just be that much longer. Not to say that it’s not important to be Catholic, but to recognize that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved.

I truly believe it. Now, as Catholics, we might say that if you really put your faith in Christ you would be Catholic but it’s much easier said than done 2000 years after the fact and with all the anti-Catholic rhetoric in the world today.

 

[DaveBj]

Marineboy, PLEASE learn how to write in sentences and paragraphs, so that we can better understand what you are trying to say.

DaveBj

 

[jimmy]

Catholic Tom:

I’m sorry, I can’t truly believe that a sincere Protestant who does not accept the Catholic Church and faith are condemned to hell, or even have a good chance of going there. If they have a true heart, and despite hearing all the proof on the Eucharist and Mary, etc, and still reject it because they truly do not believe it yet truly love Jesus and truly believe in him as God, then they cannot possibly be going to hell.

God is a good God and not just a God for Catholics. Where as I do believe we have the fullness of faith, God will judge us by our hearts. Maybe their purification through Purgatory will just be that much longer. Not to say that it’s not important to be Catholic, but to recognize that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved.

I truly believe it. Now, as Catholics, we might say that if you really put your faith in Christ you would be Catholic but it’s much easier said than done 2000 years after the fact and with all the anti-Catholic rhetoric in the world today.

Its not that they are going to hell, but we should assume so and we should try to teach of Catholicism.

I agree that they may not be going to hell, but you don’t know, so you should try to convince them of Catholicism.

 

[twf]

Catholic Tom, I understand your sentiments, but the Church has always taught “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. It is true that we have come to a fuller understanding of this teaching today, but the truth of the matter is that the Church allows for a possibility of salvation outside her visible bounds, not an assurance!

 

[michaelp]

Catholic Tom:

I’m sorry, I can’t truly believe that a sincere Protestant who does not accept the Catholic Church and faith are condemned to hell, or even have a good chance of going there. If they have a true heart, and despite hearing all the proof on the Eucharist and Mary, etc, and still reject it because they truly do not believe it yet truly love Jesus and truly believe in him as God, then they cannot possibly be going to hell.

God is a good God and not just a God for Catholics. Where as I do believe we have the fullness of faith, God will judge us by our hearts. Maybe their purification through Purgatory will just be that much longer. Not to say that it’s not important to be Catholic, but to recognize that those who put their faith in Christ will be saved.

I truly believe it. Now, as Catholics, we might say that if you really put your faith in Christ you would be Catholic but it’s much easier said than done 2000 years after the fact and with all the anti-Catholic rhetoric in the world today.

Thanks Tom

 

[justinmatter]

Catholic Tom:

I’m sorry, I can’t truly believe that a sincere Protestant who does not accept the Catholic Church and faith are condemned to hell, or even have a good chance of going there. If they have a true heart, and despite hearing all the proof on the Eucharist and Mary, etc, and still reject it because they truly do not believe it yet truly love Jesus and truly believe in him as God, then they cannot possibly be going to hell.

.

i have a problemn with that.
you see, i truly believe that the catholic church teaches the truth, the whole truth (as much as is known), and nothing but the truth

essentially, i find it difficult to believe that such a situation as you have mentioned (hearing all the proof; still truly do not believe) actually exists
1)either they have not heard all the truth
2)or they do not have a heart disposed to understanding the truth
3)or they know the truth but do not convert for various reasons

please, i’m not insinuating anything bad here

let me explain why i think this way:
if a person has seen “all the truth” (which also means the person has seen all the error in his/her present system of faith), then it stands to reason that the person should embrace the truth
to say otherwise would be to suggest that truth is
1)not absolute; or
2)not important

i know this sounds less than decent but this is what i’ve been thinking and i’d be grateful for any corrections on this
thanks

 

[4_marks]

jimmy:

I agree, they may go to Heaven, but there is also a good chance that they may go to hell, so we must treat it as if they are all going to hell. We must treat the Catholic Church as the only true church, which it is.

Even we cannot be absolutely assured of going to heaven despite the fact that we may be devout Catholics, attend Mass regularly, frequent the Sacrament of Reconciliation, uphold and defend all of the Church’s theological, social and moral teachings, etc. We can only trust Christ and hope that God will show us mercy in the end.

 

[JGC]

CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)

To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear

CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

 

[jimmy]

4 marks:

Even we cannot be absolutely assured of going to heaven despite the fact that we may be devout Catholics, attend Mass regularly, frequent the Sacrament of Reconciliation, uphold and defend all of the Church’s theological, social and moral teachings, etc. We can only trust Christ and hope that God will show us mercy in the end.

True, none of us can be sure, but the Catholic Church is the one true church that Christ created. It is most desirable that everyone belong to this church. We may not make it to Heaven but our best chance is in the Catholic Church.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

justinmatter:

i have a problemn with that.
you see, i truly believe that the catholic church teaches the truth, the whole truth (as much as is known), and nothing but the truth

essentially, i find it difficult to believe that such a situation as you have mentioned (hearing all the proof; still truly do not believe) actually exists
1)either they have not heard all the truth
2)or they do not have a heart disposed to understanding the truth
3)or they know the truth but do not convert for various reasons

please, i’m not insinuating anything bad here

let me explain why i think this way:
if a person has seen “all the truth” (which also means the person has seen all the error in his/her present system of faith), then it stands to reason that the person should embrace the truth
to say otherwise would be to suggest that truth is
1)not absolute; or
2)not important

i know this sounds less than decent but this is what i’ve been thinking and i’d be grateful for any corrections on this
thanks

I think you mis understand me. Obviously, if they saw it as truth and the proof being acceptable, they would be Catholic. If they reject it yet still see it as truth, then thats a different story and I fear for their salvation.

Remember, although they may see error’s in their faith but they believe it to be the true faith, that is no different that us Catholics who believe ours to be the true faith (and in my mind, without a doubt after doing the research on the early church, etc) yet have a real hard time with some doctrines, or see error’s in our faith. Just my thoughts.

 

[Trelow]

If everybody new the Truth then everybody would be Catholic.
If they do know know then it is through no fault of their own, but our fault for failing to evangelize them.

 

[wabrams]

Since I am a protestant, I thank Catholic Tom, Michaelp, and 4 Marks for their truly Christian attitude and being respectful. As to everyone else’s posts, what a bunch of snotty hypocrits to think or even assume b/c you aren’t Catholic, you probably will be going to Hell. Geez, ya’ll sound like my 85 yr old great aunt who thinks if you aren’t Baptist you’re going to hell.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Catholic Tom:

I’m sorry, I can’t truly believe that a sincere Protestant who does not accept the Catholic Church and faith are condemned to hell, or even have a good chance of going there. If they have a true heart, and despite hearing all the proof on the Eucharist and Mary, etc, and still reject it because they truly do not believe it yet truly love Jesus and truly believe in him as God, then they cannot possibly be going to hell.

.

Sure they could. They could be in mortal sin for a reason entirely unrelated to rejecting Catholic teaching. The possibility is there for all of us. We must endure to the end (Matt 10:22).

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I agree, they may go to Heaven, but there is also a good chance that they may go to hell, so we must treat it as if they are all going to hell.

Yet, even those within the Catholic Church may go to heaven or may go to hell. So, should we treat everybody as though they are going to hell?

I suggest we shouldn’t treat anybody as though they are going to hell, but instead simply speak the truth and treat everybody as a beloved neighbor.

 

[jimmy]

itsjustdave1988:

Yet, even those within the Catholic Church may go to heaven or may go to hell. So, should we treat everybody as though they are going to hell?

I suggest we shouldn’t treat anybody as though they are going to hell, but instead simply speak the truth and treat everybody as a beloved neighbor.

The Catholic Church is the fullness of truth. It is the church Christ founded, and consequently it is the greatest chance we have of being saved. Whether a Catholic is saved or not is beside the point. They have been given the full truth and they decided to reject it. On the otherhand, the protestants have not been given the fullness of truth, so we should work on helping them to understand the church. All people should be part of this church.

 

[jimmy]

wabrams:

Since I am a protestant, I thank Catholic Tom, Michaelp, and 4 Marks for their truly Christian attitude and being respectful. As to everyone else’s posts, what a bunch of snotty hypocrits to think or even assume b/c you aren’t Catholic, you probably will be going to Hell. Geez, ya’ll sound like my 85 yr old great aunt who thinks if you aren’t Baptist you’re going to hell.

Its about giving someone the full truth, its not about condemning anyone to hell. I don’t think you should shun protestants, I just think that you should assume that only those who have the truth will be saved, and you should try to give everyone the truth.

Whether they actually go to Heaven or Hell is not the question.

 

[michaelp]

I draw comfort out of the word of John here.

1 Jn. 5:13
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that **you **(subjunctive perfect meaning that you may know and keep on knowing until you die) have eternal life.”

The entire book of 1 John was written for the purpose that we who have trusted in Christ can know for certian that we have eternal life.

This is not just for Protestants, it is for everyone who believes in the name of the Son of God. If you do truly believe, you can know for certian that you have eternal life. You may disagree, but I encourage you to ponder on this verse, it really isn’t too hard to understand. If we cannot know, then John was mistaken, not me.

Michael

 

[mercygate]

The real subject of this thread is “invincible ignorance.” Anybody got a definition?