Pat madrid warns protestants about their salvation

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So Christian morals have always said to the man, not that he would lose his soul, but that he must take care that he didn’t. In Christian morals, in short, it is wicked to call a man “damned”; but it is strictly religious and philosophic to call him damnable

-G.K. Chesterton (Orthodoxy)

I don’t know how relevant that quote really is to this discussion, but…
 
I agree with what PM did 100%, we as Catholics have become way too sentimental and heretical over the traditional teaching of no salvation outside the church. At th end of the day, it is Christ who judges and has revealed to His Church through His Spirit that His plan is to save mankind in His Name through His Church.

Protestants could end up burning in the fires of hell if we dont reach out and bring them back to the flock. As we simply dont know how the Lord will judge, simply out of love for out seperarted brethren we must do everything to save them and bring back to the Church Christ founded.

LET NOT THE FATHER OF LIES DECEIVE YOU!!!
NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (DE FIDE)
 
I agree with what PM did 100%, we as Catholics have become way too sentimental and heretical over the traditional teaching of no salvation outside the church. At th end of the day, it is Christ who judges and has revealed to His Church through His Spirit that His plan is to save mankind in His Name through His Church.

Protestants could end up burning in the fires of hell if we dont reach out and bring them back to the flock. As we simply dont know how the Lord will judge, simply out of love for out seperarted brethren we must do everything to save them and bring back to the Church Christ founded.

LET NOT THE FATHER OF LIES DECEIVE YOU!!!
NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (DE FIDE)
 
Sort of sad… EENS. Whoever said “If a Protestant truly cannot accept the Eucharist, etc.” he doesn’t believe he will not be saved… if a Protestant understands Catholic dogma, then reason will lead him to realize it’s the truth. It’s not “makin an a**” out of anybody. Was Jesus an “a**” when He said, “I am THE way”?
 
Was Jesus an “a**” when He said, “I am THE way”?
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Nope, but that is Jesus and not the Catholic church. You see them as synonymous, I don’t.
 
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wabrams:
Since I am a protestant, I thank Catholic Tom, Michaelp, and 4 Marks for their truly Christian attitude and being respectful. As to everyone else’s posts, what a bunch of snotty hypocrits to think or even assume b/c you aren’t Catholic, you probably will be going to Hell. Geez, ya’ll sound like my 85 yr old great aunt who thinks if you aren’t Baptist you’re going to hell.
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Sorry, what was that?, youre telling US not to say Catholics only will go to heaven.
You sound like a confused protestant, who doesnt understand what your “religion” teaches.

On a lighter note, this topic is too big for us to encompass as human beings, it basically boils down to “how will God judge us”, which we cannot and never will know.

Lets say for example, that Jesus Christ was really the devil in disguise, and for some reason, only his quotes that matched up with the OT got recorded, and everything that he said incorrectly was forgotten, would we really be eternally damned for wholeheartedly believing that he was JC, and that because we were not Jewish at death, hell would be our only resting place. Just as many muslims have had islam drilled so far down their neck, it has become part of their body, to leave it is (to them) death, spiritually and physically, to denounce islam in an islamic country is suicide. Will God say, well once upon a time, you heard the name Jesus Christ as God, but you didnt do anything about it , so “hi ho, hi ho, its off to hell you go”.

Another example, Jesus Christ appears in a dream to a protestant and says “My one true church is the Catholic Church”, BUT of course, they dont know for sure it was JC, or their imagination, or a demon or devil, therefore, even being spoked to by JC does not guarantee that one has really seen the truth. It is the ones who turn away from the truth that are eternally damned, the ones who die saying “There is no God”, or " Now, i will become one with the Force",

We CANNOT see into the hearts of other people, so dont make presumptions, let God do his job, and we do ours of trying to convert as many people as possible in the hope that in seeing the truth they will do everything possible to stay out of hell. It is evident, that even amongst Catholics, pride is rearing its head more than ever.
 
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Shlemele:
Nope, but that is Jesus and not the Catholic church. You see them as synonymous, I don’t.
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Shame. Seeing as you are on a Catholic forum and still don’t see the truth.

Here, everybody, is an example of one who definitely has seen the truth and still refuses to believe, Hell is not her/his only destination, BUT, as of now, until s/he realizes his/her HUGE mistake s/he is very “damnable”, shlemele, you are in my prayers for today.
 
the catechism + Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t say that non catholics will go to Hell so I won’t believe it
 
I have a hard time understanding what this teaching means.

On an intellectual level, from my understanding of Catholic doctrine, I have a hard time disagreeing with what Tim and Deacon are saying.

“The Church is the Body of Christ, and so to reject the Church is to reject Christ.” – simplistic, but I can see that reasoning

“To reject Truth itself is to reject Christ, for He is All Truth”. – I can see that, too.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in you” – and I’ve never heard a good explanation for this that allows for salvation outside the Catholic Church’s valid consecration.

“If the Church is the One Holy and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, and God desires unity in Him, then He must be calling ALL to full communion with His Catholic Church. So if someone does NOT come to the Church, they are either rejecting or not heeding God’s Spirit, and so their salvation is is peril.” – pretty clear.
And yet, I cannot deny the good work done in Jesus’ name performed by many who are just simple Christians. Not that thier work will save them, but good works only come from God’s Grace – that same Grace that effects our salvation. Although all are not perfect, by any means, I would have to say that there are many Christians who pursue the Gospel which is Jesus Christ with all their soul, and the effects of His Grace and love on their hearts and lives can be witnessed and verified.

One other thing. Although they continue in the faith of their upbringing, there are many that unknowingly believe in Catholic doctrine in their hearts. What they don’t realize because of some level of ignorance, is that their beliefs are in communion with ours. For example, if you take any run-of-the-mill protestant and ask them questions about the necessity of living a good life, I would bet that many would say they believe they must live for Christ or their salvation would be in jeapardy.

What is to become of these people?
Back to where I started. My struggle is finding an intellectual balance between the idea of EENS, my experiences of Christ with non-Catholics, and the seemingly wishy-washy application of the EENS doctrine. Thus far, Vatican II seemed to open the door to a “gray area” for what that doctrine teaches (who is not formally “in” the Church, but still “in” the Church?), and the opinions on how big that gray area is vary immensely.

One reason I love the Church is consistency of doctrine, but I have a lot of trouble with this one. If someone could justify the salvation of people who have never been in Church to receive the Eucharist in light of John 6, that would help a lot, I think. That just does not seem a consistent application and understanding of Scripture.

Peace,
javelin
 
Password,

You are correct that Christ does the saving, but it is through His Church that He does so. Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, but that isn’t the only thing that’s necessary. Christ commanded us to do more than simply believe in Him.
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password:
It’s not the church that has the saving power, it’s Christ. We should be saying “outside of Christ there is no salvation”. Only through Christ may we be saved. If Catholics believe the Bible, which the church does, they should know that the church does not do the saving.
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I think i,ll listen to the direct words of my savior over pat madrid or any man made canon law=“for god so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life. or"he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned”.seems like faith in our risen savior was more of a concern to jesus than canon law. in christian unity,celt
 
Accept Chirst truely, is accepting the Catholic Church, because Jesus said to Peter the famous sentence. And he said My Church.
If we aren´t catholics we aren´t accepting Christ.
 
Mercygate, in Post #22, asked about a definition of “invincible ignorance.”

Father John Hardon writes:

“Ignorance is invincible (from the Latin meaning ‘unconquerable’) when it is present indeed, but there is no reasonable way, here and now, of dispelling it so that the person cannot be held responsible for doing what he does not know is wrong. He may not even suspect his ignorance, as when a child uses profane or obscene language that was learned from adults, and in all such cases there is no imputability” (The Catholic Catechism, p. 286).

Spirago and Clarke’s The Catechism Explained (1899) says this:

“He who lives in heresy through ignorance for which he is not himself to blame is not a heretic in the sight of God. Thus, those who are brought up in Protestantism, and have no opportunity of obtaining a sufficient instruction in the Catholic religion, are not heretics in the sight of God, for in them there is no obstinate denial or doubt of truth. They are no more heretics than the man who takes the property of another unwittingly is a thief” (p. 99).

Hope this helps. God bless.

Donald
 
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