Pat madrid warns protestants about their salvation

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It’s not the church that has the saving power, it’s Christ. We should be saying “outside of Christ there is no salvation”. Only through Christ may we be saved. If Catholics believe the Bible, which the church does, they should know that the church does not do the saving.
 
The real subject of this thread is “invincible ignorance.” Anybody got a definition?
 
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password:
It’s not the church that has the saving power, it’s Christ. We should be saying “outside of Christ there is no salvation”. Only through Christ may we be saved. If Catholics believe the Bible, which the church does, they should know that the church does not do the saving.
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“Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: ‘We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.’ Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.” (CCC, 169)
 
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jimmy:
True, none of us can be sure, but the Catholic Church is the one true church that Christ created. It is most desirable that everyone belong to this church. We may not make it to Heaven but our best chance is in the Catholic Church.
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I wholeheartedly agree! 👍
 
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jimmy:
Its about giving someone the full truth, its not about condemning anyone to hell. I don’t think you should shun protestants, I just think that you should assume that only those who have the truth will be saved, and you should try to give everyone the truth.

Whether they actually go to Heaven or Hell is not the question.
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When you assume you make an a** out of you and me.
 
Michael P…just before we proceed, let us clarify. Do you believe in eternal security? (That is, it is absolutely impossible for any genuine Christian to fall from grace). If you do, I would say that the Scriptures are abudantly clear that this is not the case, but I will wait for your answer first.
 
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wabrams:
Since I am a protestant, I thank Catholic Tom, Michaelp, and 4 Marks for their truly Christian attitude and being respectful. As to everyone else’s posts, what a bunch of snotty hypocrits to think or even assume b/c you aren’t Catholic, you probably will be going to Hell. Geez, ya’ll sound like my 85 yr old great aunt who thinks if you aren’t Baptist you’re going to hell.
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I apologize if my words were a bit too harsh. If you read my post, however, I didn’t say all non-Catholics are probably going to hell—at least that’s not what I meant. It has nothing to do with being snotty. You must realize that the Catholic Church believes and teaches that she is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church established by Jesus. She has done so for 2000 years, and during all that time, many have questioned her claims, but she has stood firm. The Church teaches that those who, out of no fault of their own, do not know Christ’s Church can still obtain eternal salvation. But anyone who rejects the Church while knowing that it is Christ’s Church surely can not be saved, for Christ said that anyone who rejects the apostles rejects Him (Lk 10:16), and it is the same way with the Church—to reject the Church is to reject Christ. I can’t judge the salvation of a non-Catholic (nor a Catholic for that matter). That’s up to God.

(By the way, I am a former Protestant, currently seeking full communion with the Catholic Church…I bare no resentment for Protestants!)

See ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ419.HTM.
 
saint-mike.org/library/BroJP/secret.asp

by John-Paul Ignatius, Legion of St. Michael
(The first of several essays on the motifs and nature of the post-modern worldview)

Satan has a secret. It is the secret about his three primary strategies to destroy us. If Satan can convince our culture to adopt the philosophy precipitated by these secret strategies he can brainwash our children, disrupt our families, manipulate our culture, and bring apostasy within the Church.

All the problems that we see today in society and in our church can be traced to these three fundamental strategies. It is the basis of the politically correct movement and of the heresy of individualism. These strategies are the fuel that powers feminism, the engine that drives liberalism, and the vehicle of the post-modern worldview that predominates our world today and that contaminates the Church.

These three secret strategies are:

    1. *]***All opinions are equal **
      *]***Never judge anyone **
      *]*Never step on toes

      No one escapes the sinister tentacles of these devilish doctrines; we are all contaminated by these strategies—every one of us. The question is not whether we are immune from these strategies, for we are not; it is not whether we are indeed contaminated by them, because we are; the only question is what are we going to do about it? How are we to exorcise the contamination of this pervasive worldview from our minds?

      If a man or women is wrong, and you are in the conversation, you are duty bound to tell the truth!
 
Exporter said:
saint-mike.org/library/BroJP/secret.asp

by John-Paul Ignatius, Legion of St. Michael
(The first of several essays on the motifs and nature of the post-modern worldview)

Satan has a secret. It is the secret about his three primary strategies to destroy us. If Satan can convince our culture to adopt the philosophy precipitated by these secret strategies he can brainwash our children, disrupt our families, manipulate our culture, and bring apostasy within the Church.

All the problems that we see today in society and in our church can be traced to these three fundamental strategies. It is the basis of the politically correct movement and of the heresy of individualism. These strategies are the fuel that powers feminism, the engine that drives liberalism, and the vehicle of the post-modern worldview that predominates our world today and that contaminates the Church.

These three secret strategies are:

    1. *]***All opinions are equal **
      *]***Never judge anyone **
      *]*Never step on toes

      No one escapes the sinister tentacles of these devilish doctrines; we are all contaminated by these strategies—every one of us. The question is not whether we are immune from these strategies, for we are not; it is not whether we are indeed contaminated by them, because we are; the only question is what are we going to do about it? How are we to exorcise the contamination of this pervasive worldview from our minds?

      If a man or women is wrong, and you are in the conversation, you are duty bound to tell the truth!
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Exporter:
These three secret strategies are:

    1. *]***All opinions are equal **
      *]***Never judge anyone **
      *]*Never step on toes

      , you are duty bound to tell the truth!
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    1. As Bishop Sheen stated: Perhaps the greatest sin of the 20th century was to teach that Satan does not exist. He does, and so do his “strategies” “Let’s play nice and not tell the truth”

      Good post,
 
We are bound to tell the truth, but we should tell it in love.We also, should pray for the grace that the person can hear and understand. I grew up Church of Christ, and in good faith my family believes I am going to hell,and taking my children with me, because I became Catholic. Now they have been taught that Catholics worship statues, worship Mary, the pope thinks he is GOD,ect. Regardless, of what I say and how I refuted the accusations,the misconceptions and lies remained. I believe that when my dad and grandmother died God explained things to them.We have to remain hopeful and charitable what the antiCatholics think,and say is out of lies that have gone through generations and fear. God Bless
 
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michaelp:
I draw comfort out of the word of John here.

1 Jn. 5:13
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that **you **(subjunctive perfect meaning that you may know and keep on knowing until you die) have eternal life.”

The entire book of 1 John was written for the purpose that we who have trusted in Christ can know for certian that we have eternal life.

This is not just for Protestants, it is for everyone who believes in the name of the Son of God. If you do truly believe, you can know for certian that you have eternal life. You may disagree, but I encourage you to ponder on this verse, it really isn’t too hard to understand. If we cannot know, then John was mistaken, not me.

Michael
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michaelP, You say that 1st John was written to assure all who TRUSTED in Christ would (all) have eternal life. What does “trusted” mean? What is the purpose of the Book of 1st John?

I am reading from a Catholic Bible and it’s extensive commentaries (Douay - Rheims Bible). These commentaries were written by both Bishops and Priests. They do not agree with you.Much of the Book has to do with obeying the Commandments and of following the teachings of Christ.

You interpret this to mean that everyone who “believes” in the “name” of the Son of God will have eternal life. That is not a fact: one must read the entire Book, “use context”. The Devil “believes” in the “name” of the Son of God!

Your statement makes a reader think that all they have to do is to “believe” in the “name” of Jesus Christ.I propose that if we asked 500 Protestant Churches ,"What is meant by,“Believe in the name of ___________.” I belive that there would be at least 20 different interpretations.** You know that the path to eternal life is not earned by just believing in the name of Christ! We have to do things, not just sit on a hill and believe.:tiphat: **
 
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password:
It’s not the church that has the saving power, it’s Christ. We should be saying “outside of Christ there is no salvation”. Only through Christ may we be saved. If Catholics believe the Bible, which the church does, they should know that the church does not do the saving.
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Your first line is incorrect the Church has the saving power within it since it is the body of Christ. The Church doesn’t merely believe the Bible it wrote the Bible. The Church defends that the bible is infallible because the church has the divine assurances of truth which it imparts for our salavation through the sacraments.

I know of no way to enter heaven if you spend your earthly existence unrepentently attacking and denying the Body of Christ. The CCC teaches specifically that failure to investigate the truth is a culpable offense and can not be simply dismissed as ignorance.

God Bless

PS to be saved is to be a member of the catholic church triumphant in heaven. The easiest way to heaven is by being a practicing member of the catholic church on earth, the easiest way to hell is to deny the catholic church. However there is always hope for the mushy middle
 
There is no single person in all history who has left the Church, knowing that the Cathlic Church is the true church. Even Judas did not believe that Christ was who he said he was, otherwise he would never have done what he did, Judas obviously had grave doubts, so therefor he cannot be damned for leaving Christ.

Does God want everyone to be in the Catholic Church, As a catholic we would say yes.

Does God send help/graces to everyone whether they are catholic Christian or not. we would say yes.

Therefor if this is true then God must be sending Graces for everyone to become Catholic. He does this so therefor why is not at the very least ALL CHRISTIANS catholics, it can only be because they have turned away from the Graces God has sent.

Now there would be occasions where the chances of becoming Catholic are slim, that is, some places where it would be extrememly dificult to be Christian let alone specifically Catholic.

Young children could not when young come to know the Catholic Church as true Church.

However as adults it is encumbent upon us to ‘SEARCH’ for God or come to know GOD.

Let us use an example 25 year old man, Protestant all his life becomes a Protestant minister. Now we would assume God actually wants him to be catholic and sends him help to discern this. Now we know the protestant minister “loves” God so therefor he must be more receptive to receiving such Graces, generally speaking. Now if that Protestant Minister dies at say age 60 without ever becoming catholic, then we can say and MUST say that he never listened to Gods graces and the help he was offering becasue he never became catholic.

Knowing that he did not listen to God how must his salvatin be in jeopardy. For those to say that if he was truly a good Christian protestant minister then he will be saved is ludicros, becasue it then says that being catholic is not necessary, all tht is necessary is to do good works, not even faith in Christ is needed necessarily if we expand the same reasoning to inlude hindus, moselms etc.
 
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marineboy:
in the mid 90’s pat madrid debated james white on sola scriptura–at the end of the debate he warned those who were not catholic that they run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church–let’s not forget that protestants may be “our seperated brethern” whatever that means–but their beliefs have been condemned as heresy–and yes they do run the risk of going to hell—of course if they are invincibely ignorant they can still get to heaven–i know i know–but we dont know who is invincibely ignorant so lets assume no one is–this coupled with Christ’s own words that the road to salvation is narrow and few go down it–but the road to destruction is wide and many go through it–also remember the teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation”—pius xii in humani generis says that we cannot make “outside the church there is no salvation” a meaningless phrase----so lets keep in mind that in talking to protestants muslims jews and all other people that are not under the pope that they need christ’s truth cause they may end up in hell–
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Hell is full of Protestants and Muslims :eek:

But sadly some Catholics too. The more you know the more is expected of you 😃 :eek:
 
Tim Hayes:
Does God want everyone to be in the Catholic Church, As a catholic we would say yes.

Does God send help/graces to everyone whether they are catholic Christian or not. we would say yes.

Therefor if this is true then God must be sending Graces for everyone to become Catholic. He does this so therefor why is not at the very least ALL CHRISTIANS catholics, it can only be because they have turned away from the Graces God has sent.

Now there would be occasions where the chances of becoming Catholic are slim, that is, some places where it would be extrememly dificult to be Christian let alone specifically Catholic.

Young children could not when young come to know the Catholic Church as true Church.

However as adults it is encumbent upon us to ‘SEARCH’ for God or come to know GOD.

Let us use an example 25 year old man, Protestant all his life becomes a Protestant minister. Now we would assume God actually wants him to be catholic and sends him help to discern this. Now we know the protestant minister “loves” God so therefor he must be more receptive to receiving such Graces, generally speaking. Now if that Protestant Minister dies at say age 60 without ever becoming catholic, then we can say and MUST say that he never listened to Gods graces and the help he was offering becasue he never became catholic.

Knowing that he did not listen to God how must his salvatin be in jeopardy. For those to say that if he was truly a good Christian protestant minister then he will be saved is ludicros, becasue it then says that being catholic is not necessary, all tht is necessary is to do good works, not even faith in Christ is needed necessarily if we expand the same reasoning to inlude hindus, moselms etc.
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tim hayes, i agree with that.
that’s more or less what i expressed as my opinion in post #8 of this thread.
however, i suspect it is one of the posts that brought on the “snotty hypocrites… you probably will be going to hell” remark.

i think you expressed it much better and in a much more systematic manner than i did
 
I believe that everyone who commits a mortal sin is probably going to hell…catholicism does not grant immunity!!Nor do other sects and religions. Everyone should focus on having a clean and honnest relationship with God irrespective of what path one choses…and this is the only immunity one has got in order not to go to hell.

God is all merciful, i don’t think he will condem an honest protestant just because he did not follow the pope and so on.
Well, this is my humble opinion.

God Bless,
Rana.
 
Tim Hayes:
There is no single person in all history who has left the Church, knowing that the Cathlic Church is the true church. Even Judas did not believe that Christ was who he said he was, otherwise he would never have done what he did, Judas obviously had grave doubts, so therefor he cannot be damned for leaving Christ.
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Intertesting but Jesus himself taught that Judas would never see heaven and the church has consistently taught that means he is in hell.

God Bless
 
in the mid 90’s pat madrid debated james white on sola scriptura–at the end of the debate he warned those who were not catholic that they run the risk of going to hell for not entering the catholic church—
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I post a lot on Patrick Madrid’s discussion board at www.envoymagazine.com, and this is just not his style. Marineboy, either back up this allegation with a quote directly from the debate you are referring to, or stop misrepresenting one of our finest Catholic apologists.
 
Deacon2006, That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Many would have us believe that those who are invincibly ignorant are great in number but this is plainly incorrect. The whole idea of spreading the Gospel of Christ, that is the one according to the Catholic Church, is that our salvation is in extreme doubt if we don’t come to Christ and according to catholic teaching the further you move away from catholic teaching the less possibility (generally speaking) there is for salvation.

If the Gospel of Christ was not extremely important for our salvation, then there is no great need to spread it. If the Gospel of Christ is extremely important then it tells us the danger of being a bad sinner generally and how much greater danger must those be in who don’t follow the catholic teaching, which is supposed to help us in attaining our salvation.

In Christ

Tim
 
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