Pater Noster-Holding Hands

[ncjohn]

Marauder:

Just found another good link on the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer. It goes into much more detail, then any of the other sources.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1175

I can already hear people saying he isn’t an authority, but he does state everything that I have heard before.

You’re right that he’s not an authority, but he makes my points nicely anyway.
Saunders article:

While no one can find fault if a husband and wife, or a family want spontaneously to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer, the priest does not have the right to introduce, mandate, or impose it.

My point all along is that it is the people themselves who do this if they find it meaningful. It should not, and cannot legally, be imposed by the priest or even the bishop. On the other hand, as he notes, nobody can fault people for doing it on their own.

And of course there are always those who do not want to participate, which I fully understand and sympathize with having been one myself for most of my life. As he notes
Saunders article:

…in its goal to build unity and sensitivity, it can be alienating and insensitive to individuals…

Sensitivity and charity must rule–on both sides! As I’ve said so many times, it is as wrong for someone to try to force someone to hold their hand who doesn’t want to, or to look at them as uncharitable, as for someone who doesn’t want to to look down on or question the piety of those who do.

Thanks Marauder. Even though the article isn’t authoritative, it does make pretty clear that the practice, when taken on by the people rather than being mandated, is not illicit or an abuse.

Peace,

 

[Marauder]

ncjohn:

Nope. After decades of use and silence from the Church, plus the fact that it exists and is not being stopped by the Church, the burden of proof is on those who claim that it is wrong when the Church has never said so.

Honestly that is one of the worst excuses for a practice to exist that I have ever seen. Because we have been doing X for years that means it must be allowed.

Have you even bothered to read any of the articles by numerous people from Catholic Answers, EWTN, and other sources? Have you even bothered to read the Notia? Just because it doesn’t directly address holding hands when it doesn’t replace the Sign of Peace doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to other areas of the Mass.

I bet if the same exact Notia came out and it directly said the Our Father, but the notation about the deacon was still in it you would claim that it only affects when the deacon directs people to do the Our Father not when the priest says to do it.

No where is it contained with in ANY official documents that holding hands during the Our Father is allowed. The burdon of proof that it is allowed rests on the people that say it is allowed. It is clear that it isn’t mentioned in the rubrics, RS, and the GIRM that it is allowed. Where is the proof that it is allowed other then, since we have been doing it for years, then it must be allowed?

Canon law states, “The liturgical books approved by the competent authority are to be faithfully observed in the celebration of the sacraments; therefore, no one on personal authority may add, remove, or change anything in them” (Canon 826.1).

Asking the congregation to hold hands during the Our Father is an addition on personal authority.

 

[Marauder]

ncjohn:

Thanks Marauder. Even though the article isn’t authoritative, it does make pretty clear that the practice, when taken on by the people rather than being mandated, is not illicit or an abuse.

Peace,

The problem is that this entire thread was talking about churches and places that either force you to hold hands or implictly require it. I even mentioned early on that for a married couple to hold hands if they want it is fine. My second post had this quote in it “Hand holding itself isn’t a bad thing (as you see in the one that asks if it is alright for a married couple to hold hands throughout the Mass), but requesting everyone to hold hands …”

A couple or family holding hands is one thing. Holding hands with your the people around you, or across the church, etc. is something totally different.

 

[ncjohn]

Marauder:

Have you even bothered to read any of the articles by numerous people from Catholic Answers, EWTN, and other sources? Have you even bothered to read the Notia?

Yes, believe it or not, I’ve read pretty much every one of these articles, most of them numerous times, along with RS, the GIRM, the Noticiae, and pretty much anything else anyone has trotted out trying to show this to be illicit. Your implication that I am either uneducated or ignorant is noted and not appreciated.

The problem is the Church, despite myriad opportunities, just doesn’t say so anywhere at any time. People keep trying to stretch interpretations of pieces of documents to say what they want to believe, but the fact is that no document anywhere says “stop”–at least none that have been produced in the substantial period of time I’ve spent looking at the issue.

We have seen RS directly address abuses…but ignore this. We have seen a letter directly from Rome address denying communion to those who approach kneeling…but nothing saying holding hands is wrong despite all the letters over more than a 30 year period. We see the USCCB directly say in response to direct questions that there is no prescribed posture…not that the questioned posture is incorrect.

I’m really not at all sure what it is about someone holding someone’s hand that so offends you. If someone is trying to force it on you, I’ll be the first to stand beside you and defend your right not to. Beyond that though, if I want to hold my wife’s hand, or the hand of the friend standing next to me in the pew, why should that bother you? Even Fr. Saunders doesn’t have a problem with that.

All I want is for all of us to be able to allow each other enough space to pray to God in a meaningful way. I don’t want to go to the Charismatic service personally, but I have no problem recognizing that their personal style is just as pleasing in God’s eyes as mine is. I have no problem recognizing that others are just private people and feel uncomfortable holding hands with strangers, and I recognize that their prayer is just as pleasing to God as mine.

The Vatican specifically gave room for Conferences of bishops to allow some room for people to express themselves. This is a small way that makes a lot of difference to a lot of us in recognizing that the mass is also a gathering of the community in prayer and that while our worship is vertical, that particular portion of the mass is a horizontal time of praise and petition to **Our ** Father.

We really need to quit dividing the Church over these petty things. Our calling and our needs are so much greater. We need to make sure that people can really say that they know we are Christians by our love for each other.

Peace,

 

[H_Opey]

:yawn: Yet another hand holding debate…

 

[havemercy]

msproule:

Don’t get me wrong…my understanding of Vatican II is very limited, as well. God willing, I think the Holy Father is eventually going to help us better understand what the Council had intended.

There have been MANY threads about this topic in particular, although most of them have since been abandoned. There is a relatively recent one here about the most abuse-packed Masses that anybody has ever witnessed. I have not read through it at all but I suspect you will find some horrifying experiences!

You might also like to read this prepared statement from Francis Cardinal Arinze. In it, he roughly outlines the potential hazards of innovative worship.

Peace,
Michael

Thank you. I read some of the craziness…That Bob Dylan mass made me laugh uncontrollably! That priest is ridiculous!

Are women aloud to read scripture at mass?

Haha also. This is just funny. One sunday our pastor was ill, so a neighboring priest from the same diocese was the presider of that mass. He had a stop-watch with him and during the homily it went off. The whole congregation was silent. Then Father French said “That would be my alarm…I tend to talk too much. Sorry.” and before he continued with his homily the pews erupted in laughter. IS THIS KOSHER!? hahaha

Pax!
tony

 

[MaryD7]

ncjohn:

We really need to quit dividing the Church over these petty things. Our calling and our needs are so much greater. We need to make sure that people can really say that they know we are Christians by our love for each other.

Peace,

Thank you. You summed my up thoughts in 3 beautiful sentences.

There’s work to be done, my friends, and this snipping and sniping only impedes the unity we need to do our jobs.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ncjohn:

Yes, believe it or not, I’ve read pretty much every one of these articles, most of them numerous times, along with RS, the GIRM, the Noticiae, and pretty much anything else anyone has trotted out trying to show this to be illicit. Your implication that I am either uneducated or ignorant is noted and not appreciated.

The problem is the Church, despite myriad opportunities, just doesn’t say so anywhere at any time. People keep trying to stretch interpretations of pieces of documents to say what they want to believe, but the fact is that no document anywhere says “stop”–at least none that have been produced in the substantial period of time I’ve spent looking at the issue.

We have seen RS directly address abuses…but ignore this. We have seen a letter directly from Rome address denying communion to those who approach kneeling…but nothing saying holding hands is wrong despite all the letters over more than a 30 year period. We see the USCCB directly say in response to direct questions that there is no prescribed posture…not that the questioned posture is incorrect.

I’m really not at all sure what it is about someone holding someone’s hand that so offends you. If someone is trying to force it on you, I’ll be the first to stand beside you and defend your right not to. Beyond that though, if I want to hold my wife’s hand, or the hand of the friend standing next to me in the pew, why should that bother you? Even Fr. Saunders doesn’t have a problem with that.

All I want is for all of us to be able to allow each other enough space to pray to God in a meaningful way. I don’t want to go to the Charismatic service personally, but I have no problem recognizing that their personal style is just as pleasing in God’s eyes as mine is. I have no problem recognizing that others are just private people and feel uncomfortable holding hands with strangers, and I recognize that their prayer is just as pleasing to God as mine.

The Vatican specifically gave room for Conferences of bishops to allow some room for people to express themselves. This is a small way that makes a lot of difference to a lot of us in recognizing that the mass is also a gathering of the community in prayer and that while our worship is vertical, that particular portion of the mass is a horizontal time of praise and petition to **Our **Father.

We really need to quit dividing the Church over these petty things. Our calling and our needs are so much greater. We need to make sure that people can really say that they know we are Christians by our love for each other.

Peace,

Please note above emphasis:

Well, of course, John, when stated like that, one can’t really argue with you. BUT, and with respect,…look at it this way: Shouldn’t we be looking at the documents and trying to discern what the Church understands to be normative in the celebration of this single most sacred rite? If we say,“well, holding hands isn’t *forbidden, *per se,” that’s not seeking out what’s normative. One could just as easily say,“It isn’t forbidden to sit in the lotus position during the consecration” (I betcha there’s some folks out there who’ve done it!) or “it isn’t forbidden to have a gymnist do flips down the aisle in front of the crucifer” (isn’t that just one form of vigorous liturgical dance, after all?). We shouldn’t be looking for what we CAN get away with, we should be seeking the mind of the Church. Also, I don’t think the Church’s mind is against you holding hands with your wife or your child, etc., because that’s organic and natural (I actually think the Pope or Cardinal Arinze said so, but I couldn’t cite it, I’m afraid). So hold hands with your beloved, by all means. It just is not the Church’s understanding that this is a liturgical FORM and if everyone or near everyone is doing it as a form/norm, with everyone in the Church queing sideways to make a daisy chain and the priest leaving the altar to join hands with the congregation, etc., then that’s outside the Church’s understanding, not evil, not the “smoke of Satan” certainly, but not normative in the Church’s understanding of what should be taking place at this point in the liturgy. And I’m afraid that we cannot take an attitude of “there’s more important things,” because the liturgy will disintergrate even further (been to Mass on the west coast lately? ). This is one of the more important things.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Servo, I’ve no idea what goes on in your parish, but…most liturgically minded Churchs/ecclessial communities draw their liturgies from legitimate antecedants. The Methodist (doctoral robes with stoles over them, but some Presbyterians use them as well) derive their service from the Anglican’s and Thomas Cranmer drew on the Old Sarum Rite (a legitimate rite of the Church, but surpressed by Trent when Trent regularized/standardized the Mass) to produce the Anglican rite. The Old Sarum Rite, out of the West as was the Tridentine, had elements incommon WITH the Tridentine and the Eastern Rites as well (all of them had things in common). It isn’t surprising that you see a similarity. That doesn’t mean that the Pauline Mass is a Protestant Mass or that it’s tainted by Protestantism (it is the legitimate Mass of the Church, promulgated by the one with the authority to do so, thus by it’s nature it isn’t Protestant). As to the stole, I tend to agree with you, except to note that it isn’t a fake stole unless it’s sewn on (was it?).

No, no. I am talking about the music, the overraccentuated “communal spirit” the “no rules…just right” feel of it all.

I am not knocking the Pauline rite…every time I watch a Papal Mass I realise how much I like it. What I am talking about is how it is conducted. Frankly, we have as much reverence as the Protestant church.

 

[Marauder]

ncjohn:

We really need to quit dividing the Church over these petty things. Our calling and our needs are so much greater. We need to make sure that people can really say that they know we are Christians by our love for each other.

Peace,

This is exactly the same type of thinking that leads to the, “well what’s wrong with adding honey to the hosts? It’s only a petty thing.” “We should use grape juice instead of wine. It’s only a petty thing.” This is the exact type of thinking that keeps allowing more and more abuses into the Mass. One day it is just the hand holding, then next comes in the standing around the altar, then the glass chalices, then the alternative hosts, all petty differences but they keep adding up.

Everyone is entitled to have a Mass that conforms to the standards. To be lead into thinking that some invention is the standard and the norm is a big disservice to those that are experiencing it. If you want to hold hands with your family by all means do it. But to have the priest say, “Now lets all join hands and say the Our Father” is against the rubrics, against RS, and against the GIRM. Whether this has been going on for years or just started isn’t the concern. It isn’t in the rubrics so it shouldn’t be there.

Your implication that I am either uneducated or ignorant is noted and not appreciated.

I at no time implied that. But there are lots of things from people out there saying that it is not appropriate for hand holding during the Our Father. Can you give me one source from a Orthodox priest that says it is alright for the congregation to be told to hold hands during the Our Father? I have searched the web for it and I haven’t been able to find it. I see several places where it says it shouldn’t be allowed. None that say it should. Except for a few sites that also are fully supporting things like woman’s ordination and other major abuses.

 

[ncjohn]

JKirkLVNV:

Please note above emphasis:

Well, of course, John, when stated like that, one can’t really argue with you. BUT, and with respect,…look at it this way: Shouldn’t we be looking at the documents and trying to discern what the Church understands to be normative in the celebration of this single most sacred rite? If we say,“well, holding hands isn’t *forbidden, *per se,” that’s not seeking out what’s normative. One could just as easily say,“It isn’t forbidden to sit in the lotus position during the consecration” (I betcha there’s some folks out there who’ve done it!) or “it isn’t forbidden to have a gymnist do flips down the aisle in front of the crucifer” (isn’t that just one form of vigorous liturgical dance, after all?). We shouldn’t be looking for what we CAN get away with, we should be seeking the mind of the Church. Also, I don’t think the Church’s mind is against you holding hands with your wife or your child, etc., because that’s organic and natural (I actually think the Pope or Cardinal Arinze said so, but I couldn’t cite it, I’m afraid). So hold hands with your beloved, by all means. It just is not the Church’s understanding that this is a liturgical FORM and if everyone or near everyone is doing it as a form/norm, with everyone in the Church queing sideways to make a daisy chain and the priest leaving the altar to join hands with the congregation, etc., then that’s outside the Church’s understanding, not evil, not the “smoke of Satan” certainly, but not normative in the Church’s understanding of what should be taking place at this point in the liturgy. And I’m afraid that we cannot take an attitude of “there’s more important things,” because the liturgy will disintergrate even further (been to Mass on the west coast lately? ). This is one of the more important things.

I quite frankly don’t disagree with a lot of what you say, with the exception of comparing outlandish examples with a pretty well established practice that occurs throughout the universal church. My position on this topic, as I’ve said often before, is that the issue here isn’t really that important to me; what is important to me is the amount of “certitude” in some positions that are clearly incorrect but being passed off as fact, along with the amount of condescension that is present in so many of these discussions. The whole idea that “God likes me better” because I (choose one): do or don’t kneel for communion; receive on the tongue or in the hand; do or don’t wear a head covering; do or don’t think it’s ok for girls to be altar servers; etc, etc, etc, just makes me gag. The fact is that we are all miserable sinners in desperate need of God’s mercy and none of us are worthy to draw our next breath.

As to what is “normative”, I really do believe that by allowing holding hands and orans to continue for this extended time that they have become as legitimately normative as any other position. To me it’s one of those things that individual parishes–or even certain masses within a parish–need to determine for themselves. And by “for themselves” I mean the people, not the clergy imposing it. With adequate instruction on charity I truly don’t see any problem with hand-holders coexisting peacefully with hand folders.

As to holding hands with family members being ok, that kind of begs the question to me. If that is ok, then it says that it is not “objectively wrong” to begin with. If it isn’t then can I hold hands with my brother? My best friend? My ex-girlfriend (never mind that one, my wife wouldn’t let me anyway )? My cousins (that one is more important as I’m not that fond of some cousins and this could be a good excuse not to hold their hands)? Where is the dividing line, and why?

As to it being one of the more important things, to me there is a balance to be struck. Yes we have to keep our liturgies faithful and faith-filled. But I don’t see stifling some personal expression to be the way to do that. You know I’m not suggesting any kind of “anything goes” mentality, but we have to give the Charismatics and the contemporary music people some room to come to the table without them being looked down on. With a little charity on everyone’s part I don’t believe we would need to have these kinds of discussions where wanting to hold hands is equated by some with wanting to tear the Church apart.

Charity, charity, charity…“in the end we have faith, hope and love…and the greatest of these is love.”

Peace,

 

[Elzee]

Marauder:

Can you give me one source from a Orthodox priest that says it is alright for the congregation to be told to hold hands during the Our Father? I have searched the web for it and I haven’t been able to find it. I see several places where it says it shouldn’t be allowed. None that say it should. Except for a few sites that also are fully supporting things like woman’s ordination and other major abuses.

You got me thinking because I don’t agree with holding hands either so I did some searching. I’ve heard people say that the Denver Diocese, the Diocese of Rockford, and the Diocese of Peoria are all very orthodox and traditional. So I did some checking. On the Peoria diocese website (www.cdop.org) you’ll see where the Bishop allows hand-holding AND the orans posture!!! To find the letter, go to ‘Around the Diocese’ at the top and then to ‘Documents’. You’ll find a letter by the Bishop from Dec 4, 2004 titled “One Body, One Spirit in Christ” . It’s item #34 in the letter.

This surprised me!

 

[JW10631]

EWTN gives the best example of the Mass.
They use Latin where it is called for and appropriate.
They do not even bother with the handshaking Sign of Peace.
Only the priests and deacons give Communion.

Everybody should have Mass like they do.

 

[ncjohn]

Marauder:

Can you give me one source from a Orthodox priest that says it is alright for the congregation to be told to hold hands during the Our Father?

I have never at any time said it was alright for a priest to ask for that, and in fact have said repeatedly, including in these posts, that it is not alright for a priest, bishop, or anyone else to tell people to do that. Further I have consistently suggested that in places where people are being pressured, that the priest should request charity in not imposing on people.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with people deciding to hold hands, whether it be with their family or the stranger next to them. There is absolutely nothing that does or should prohibit that, including the GIRM, RS, or any other document that has been brought out so far. If it does happen, I’ll comply with no problem, but I don’t think it is going to happen given the Church’s own statements about allowing for diversity.

You can make it all about postures and stuff if you want to. I’m going to make it all about worship and praise and realize that God loves all of us equally and infinitely regardless of how we hold our hands.

Peace,

 

[Elzee]

JW10631:

EWTN gives the best example of the Mass.
They use Latin where it is called for and appropriate.
They do not even bother with the handshaking Sign of Peace.
Only the priests and deacons give Communion.

Everybody should have Mass like they do.

I agree. My friend told me of a church that seats about 1000 and has 15 EMHC at Mass. My jaw dropped.

 

[Marauder]

Elzee:

You got me thinking because I don’t agree with holding hands either so I did some searching. I’ve heard people say that the Denver Diocese, the Diocese of Rockford, and the Diocese of Peoria are all very orthodox and traditional. So I did some checking. On the Peoria diocese website (www.cdop.org) you’ll see where the Bishop allows hand-holding AND the orans posture!!! To find the letter, go to ‘Around the Diocese’ at the top and then to ‘Documents’. You’ll find a letter by the Bishop from Dec 4, 2004 titled “One Body, One Spirit in Christ” . It’s item #34 in the letter.

This surprised me!

Thank-you for your link. That is the first time I have ever seen something from an official source supporting hand holding during the Our Father. I personally know nothing about the Bishop mentioned, but he has interpretted the guidelines as he sees them and has ruled as such in his diocese. That is his right until/if something comes out of the Vatican either way. Of course that only applies to his diocese.

Thanks again.

 

[Marauder]

JW10631:

EWTN gives the best example of the Mass.
They use Latin where it is called for and appropriate.
They do not even bother with the handshaking Sign of Peace.
Only the priests and deacons give Communion.

Everybody should have Mass like they do.

The use of EMHCs in and of itself isn’t a bad thing it’s the abuse of the use of EMHCs that is a bad thing. I volunteer at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception where they do EVERYTHING “by the book” and they use EMHCs if they have to. The church holds 2500 in just the upper church in just the pews (6000 or more at the Vigil for Life). During regular Masses there can be up to 12 communion stations (number varies depending on how full the Mass is.) BUT most of the priests that are assigned to the Shrine are present for communion, any co-celebrating priests are used and seminarians are used to fill the stations before EMHCs are used. If there are enough priests, deacons and seminarians present then the EMHCs aren’t used at all.

The National Shrine also regularly, but not always, uses Latin during certain parts of the Mass. They do use the sign of Peace but that is an official (although optional) part of the Mass.

 

[ncjohn]

Marauder:

Thank-you for your link. That is the first time I have ever seen something from an official source supporting hand holding during the Our Father. I personally know nothing about the Bishop mentioned, but he has interpretted the guidelines as he sees them and has ruled as such in his diocese. That is his right until/if something comes out of the Vatican either way. Of course that only applies to his diocese.

Thanks again.

I agree with you here. I see this as being exactly in line with what I’ve been saying about not mandating or prohibiting since the Conference has made it clear that nothing is prescribed. In fact he doesn’t even say that he “supports” the idea, only that it is permitted.

I am especially pleased to see his call for sensitivity towards those who do not wish to participate. I think that helps make it clear to the priests in the diocese, as well as the people, that it shouldn’t be mandated as a posture for the entire congregation.

 

[Elzee]

ncjohn:

I agree with you here. I see this as being exactly in line with what I’ve been saying about not mandating or prohibiting since the Conference has made it clear that nothing is prescribed. In fact he doesn’t even say that he “supports” the idea, only that it is permitted.

I am especially pleased to see his call for sensitivity towards those who do not wish to participate. I think that helps make it clear to the priests in the diocese, as well as the people, that it shouldn’t be mandated as a posture for the entire congregation.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that he personally does not support the idea of holding hands. Maybe I’m reading too much into his writing style, but I get the feeling that he is simply ‘allowing it’ since many parishes have started doing it and it’s not specifically prohibited - maybe this is a battle he doesn’t think is worth fighting. Again, just my impression. However, I do get the idea that he supports the orans posture and is not simply ‘allowing it’.

I didn’t read the whole letter, but what I skimmed sounded very orthodox and traditional - as does the entire site, I might add!

 

[gelsbern]

Just thought I would post this, though it is not the exact same topic, the Canon expert did say something interesting that is relevant here.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=2&Pg=Forum9&recnu=36&number=464039
Rev. Mark J. Gantley:

Just because something is not prohibited does not mean that it OK.

The liturgical directives need to be implemented with principles of sound theology in mind. That is why one must study theology before studying canon law.

Furthermore, the liturgical directives are not merely a list of what not to do. There is no law that states, “Priests are not to wear clown makeup during Mass.” Just because there is no law that says not to do this doesn’t mean that it is OK to do this.

…