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Ani_Ibi
Guest
I was not aware that Catholic teaching allowed this option. Can you please explain and give a link to support this premise.
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kim_wilson
Guest
Euthanasia happens far more often than the public realizes in this country. Usually it comes under the name “morphine protocol.” I am a registered nurse with 11 years experience, and I do not doubt this happened at all.
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HelpingHands
Guest
kim wilson:
What I don’t understand is why this doc felt the need to go to the press with this. It makes me leery of that person. I understand it was a horrendous and unusual circumstance, but doing something questionable and then going anonymously to the press is weird.
It’s been happening unofficially for years. I know great aunt Ruth, who was a public health nurse said that it happened way back when (she graduated in the 30’s), when the doc would say that it’s time to give Mrs So and So her ‘shot’.
What I don’t understand is why this doc felt the need to go to the press with this. It makes me leery of that person. I understand it was a horrendous and unusual circumstance, but doing something questionable and then going anonymously to the press is weird.
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Melanie01
Guest
Ani Ibi:
I do not know of the Catholic Church teaching on this, this is what I have been taught…this is a moral dilemma is all… I thank the Lord have never been in this situation and hope never to be, however I would like to know if the Catholic Church would ever advocate active abandonment and/or allowing patients to succumb to fire and water when the infrastructure of civilisation is falling apart… there is NO answer. Ideally these people would have been evacuatated…
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HelpingHands
Guest
Hi Melanie,
I don’t understand why there was no good evacuation plan in place for these hospitals, with all the resources available in this country. It sounds like they were utterly on their own. Didn’t they have a helipad on the roof???
On the subject of of how the doctors knew certain patients would die, when people are hospitalized you know quite a bit about their conditions, and some patients are on drips that are literally barely keeping them alive, with very fine margins of safety. ICU patients are often practically on life support requiring high level monitoring of lab values, continous hardwire monitoring, artlines, etc. I wonder if their O2 was still running? They’d have only a limited number of portable tanks available.
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HelpingHands
Guest
And, honestly, I haven’t done a drip rate for an IV infusion since nursing school. I think the ER nurses do them, but on the floor we alway use a pump. They said they ran out of water. I wonder how many days supply of IV fluids they have on hand, and if they were able to use that for sanitary purposes.
I hope one of my nursing journals has a good article about this. I bet there was a lot a heroism on the part of the hospital staff.
I hope one of my nursing journals has a good article about this. I bet there was a lot a heroism on the part of the hospital staff.
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TomK
Guest
Attached is the complete text of the article, in the words of the Clerk of the U.S. Supreme Court, “May God have mercy on these United States.”
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***Monday, Sept. 12, 2005 ***Doctors working in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans killed critically ill patients rather than leave them behind to die in agony as they evacuated hospitals, according to a shocking report in the respected British newspaper the Daily Mail.
One emergency official who spoke on the record, William “Forest” McQueen, told the Mail: “Those who had no chance of making it were given a lot of morphine and lain down in a dark place to die.” /images/banners/SubnewsmaxO250x250.gif
McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs near New Orleans, told relatives that patients had been “put down,” saying medical personnel “injected them, but nurses stayed with them until they died.”
The Mail did not name the other members of the medical staff interviewed by the newspaper in order to protect their identities. Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana.
One doctor said: "I didn’t know if I was doing the right thing. But I did not have time. I had to make snap decisions, under the most appalling circumstances, and I did what I thought was right.
"I injected morphine into those patients who were dying and in agony. If the first dose was not enough, I gave a double dose. And at night I prayed to God to have mercy on my soul.
“This was not murder. This was compassion. I had cancer patients who were in agony.”
The doctor said medical staffers divided patients into three categories: those who were medically fit enough to survive, those who needed urgent care, and the dying, the Mail reported.
“It came down to giving people the basic human right to die with dignity,” said the doctor.
"There were patients with ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ signs. Under normal circumstances, some could have lasted several days. But when the power went out, we had nothing.
"Some of the very sick became distressed. We tried to make them as comfortable as possible. “You have to understand, these people were going to die anyway.” According to the Mail, the confessions of the medical staff “are an indictment of the appalling failure of American authorities to help those in desperate need after Hurricane Katrina flooded the city.” **
**
NewsMax.com
***Monday, Sept. 12, 2005 ***Doctors working in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans killed critically ill patients rather than leave them behind to die in agony as they evacuated hospitals, according to a shocking report in the respected British newspaper the Daily Mail.
One emergency official who spoke on the record, William “Forest” McQueen, told the Mail: “Those who had no chance of making it were given a lot of morphine and lain down in a dark place to die.” /images/banners/SubnewsmaxO250x250.gif
McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs near New Orleans, told relatives that patients had been “put down,” saying medical personnel “injected them, but nurses stayed with them until they died.”
The Mail did not name the other members of the medical staff interviewed by the newspaper in order to protect their identities. Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana.
One doctor said: "I didn’t know if I was doing the right thing. But I did not have time. I had to make snap decisions, under the most appalling circumstances, and I did what I thought was right.
"I injected morphine into those patients who were dying and in agony. If the first dose was not enough, I gave a double dose. And at night I prayed to God to have mercy on my soul.
“This was not murder. This was compassion. I had cancer patients who were in agony.”
The doctor said medical staffers divided patients into three categories: those who were medically fit enough to survive, those who needed urgent care, and the dying, the Mail reported.
“It came down to giving people the basic human right to die with dignity,” said the doctor.
"There were patients with ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ signs. Under normal circumstances, some could have lasted several days. But when the power went out, we had nothing.
"Some of the very sick became distressed. We tried to make them as comfortable as possible. “You have to understand, these people were going to die anyway.” According to the Mail, the confessions of the medical staff “are an indictment of the appalling failure of American authorities to help those in desperate need after Hurricane Katrina flooded the city.” **
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jjwilkman
Guest
if it’s ok to get rid of the unborn, it might very well be ok to get rid of the useless sick, old and dying, mightn’t it? what about the homeless? then, the unemployed?
ah, yes. the homeless and unemployed are a great burden on “society”…this seems to be where all this is leading.
ah, yes. the homeless and unemployed are a great burden on “society”…this seems to be where all this is leading.
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Bella3502
Guest
The doctors and nurses could have stayed and drowned as well. I think drowning is a horrible way to die. I don’t think we should second guess what happened. We should plan for the future so that it never has to happen again. This is so sad.
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Cockney_Clive
Guest
Funny that. Sounds the same excuse as that proffered by some of the doctors who were involved in the murder of hundreds of thousands of the mentally ill, the learning disabled, the physically disabled, the ‘useless mouths’ in Nazi Germany from 1933 on.
One doctor is quoted as saying: I didn’t know if what I was doing was right" God in Heaven! If in doubt, do not do it; for the sake of your soul!!!
What does Holy Mother Church teach on this: lots but see the summary contained in Catechism of the Catholic Church; para 2276, 2277,2278, 2279.
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kim_wilson
Guest
I have titrated morphine doses (under a physician’s orders of course) to cover cancer pain, but if the morphine helped push any of these patients over the edge, that was NEVER the intent. So I don’t call that euthanasia.
I really became more aware of medical euthanasia as I began working with profoundly disabled children. Parents in the state in which I work, can put their child under hospice for intractable pain (whether real or not), and a hospice nurse comes in and puts the child on a morphine drip. After 24 hours, the rate is pushed upward until the child dies. The 24 hour waiting period is because a big investigation would follow in a death that occurred within less than 24 hours of the initiation of treatment. Generally speaking, any death that occurs within 24 hours of any institution initiating medical treatment is an automatic coroner’s investigation.
I really became more aware of medical euthanasia as I began working with profoundly disabled children. Parents in the state in which I work, can put their child under hospice for intractable pain (whether real or not), and a hospice nurse comes in and puts the child on a morphine drip. After 24 hours, the rate is pushed upward until the child dies. The 24 hour waiting period is because a big investigation would follow in a death that occurred within less than 24 hours of the initiation of treatment. Generally speaking, any death that occurs within 24 hours of any institution initiating medical treatment is an automatic coroner’s investigation.
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kim_wilson
Guest
There are 2 possible reasons why this physician went public with what he did. 1. To assuage his own guilt. 2. To further the euthanasia agenda. And it might have been a little of both.
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abcdefg
Guest
kim wilson:
or to prove he’s insane enough to be prosecuted by law
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kim_wilson
Guest
Doubt that will ever happen. Families bringing suit–now that’s a possibility.
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Cockney_Clive
Guest
Sorry to hear about your Cancer, Kim. You are in my prayers.
Sorry, too to disagree but, the new reports quoted on this thread (and others I have read myself) make it quite clear that this WAS a deliberate act of Euthenasia even if the doctors talk of ‘compassionate killing’ or ‘mercy killing’. The doctors deliberately and with intention to kill injected these patients with substances at dosages which they knew would kill them. This intentional act did not so much ‘push them over the edge’ but, actually, picked them up bodily and threw them over the edge whether they wanted to go or not.
" Murder One. Book 'em Danno."
Sorry, too to disagree but, the new reports quoted on this thread (and others I have read myself) make it quite clear that this WAS a deliberate act of Euthenasia even if the doctors talk of ‘compassionate killing’ or ‘mercy killing’. The doctors deliberately and with intention to kill injected these patients with substances at dosages which they knew would kill them. This intentional act did not so much ‘push them over the edge’ but, actually, picked them up bodily and threw them over the edge whether they wanted to go or not.
" Murder One. Book 'em Danno."
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HelpingHands
Guest
Hi Clive,
Kim stated that she has worked with cancer patients as a nurse, not that she’s had cancer herself. Am I right Kim? When people go on hospice they have morphine protocols that allow very liberal amounts of morphine given that can be titrated by the nurse, just like there are other titration protocols in nursing. Titrating is when the nurse is able to make independent decisions about the dosage based on certain criteria.
For instance, in my unit we have heparin protocols where a heparin drip is titrated based on lab values that are drawn every 6 hours. We have an ETOH protocol that allows us to give ativan to people in alcohol withdrawl based on a protocol sheet rating system. In critical care there are even more protocols. In oncology, there are morphine protocols for the dying.
I’ve had orders on the floor to give very liberal morphine to dying patients, without a time limit actually. It’s totally open-ended and definately could be abused, although at the narc count at the end of shift, it would be noticable if I had taken out an inordinate amound of morphine. Usually these types of patients have a PCA though, where they can self administer narcotics.
Kim stated that she has worked with cancer patients as a nurse, not that she’s had cancer herself. Am I right Kim? When people go on hospice they have morphine protocols that allow very liberal amounts of morphine given that can be titrated by the nurse, just like there are other titration protocols in nursing. Titrating is when the nurse is able to make independent decisions about the dosage based on certain criteria.
For instance, in my unit we have heparin protocols where a heparin drip is titrated based on lab values that are drawn every 6 hours. We have an ETOH protocol that allows us to give ativan to people in alcohol withdrawl based on a protocol sheet rating system. In critical care there are even more protocols. In oncology, there are morphine protocols for the dying.
I’ve had orders on the floor to give very liberal morphine to dying patients, without a time limit actually. It’s totally open-ended and definately could be abused, although at the narc count at the end of shift, it would be noticable if I had taken out an inordinate amound of morphine. Usually these types of patients have a PCA though, where they can self administer narcotics.
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kim_wilson
Guest
Thanks for the clarification, Helping Hands. I do not have cancer, Clive nor have I committed euthanasia. I have simply (under a doctor’s orders) very slowly and over specific time intervals raised the rate of morphine infusion to cover a patient’s pain. It has never been my intent to commit euthanasia—only to relieve pain and suffering. If euthanasia was my intent, I would have raised the rate very rapidly. There are probably physicians and nurses who have deliberately done this—i.e. the physician in New Orleans. Please, I am not an advocate of euthanasia!
More than likely no suit will be brought against this physician–in part because of the extenuating circumstances and also because of the escalating American euthanasia agenda. This whole incident will be amunition for the lefties in their culture of death promotion.
I understand as a medical professional how the MD made the decision to do what he did. He may well have been acting out of compassion–albeit misguided compassion. I do not believe it was right, but I do understand the pressure he was under. This is what I love about having a Catholic conscience. You absolutely know where the boundaries are and you don’t make decisions like these according to your feelings at the moment. If the physician had had a well-formed Catholic conscience things might have turned out differently. Patients may have suffered and died still—but on God’s time and not ours and certainly not by human hands.
More than likely no suit will be brought against this physician–in part because of the extenuating circumstances and also because of the escalating American euthanasia agenda. This whole incident will be amunition for the lefties in their culture of death promotion.
I understand as a medical professional how the MD made the decision to do what he did. He may well have been acting out of compassion–albeit misguided compassion. I do not believe it was right, but I do understand the pressure he was under. This is what I love about having a Catholic conscience. You absolutely know where the boundaries are and you don’t make decisions like these according to your feelings at the moment. If the physician had had a well-formed Catholic conscience things might have turned out differently. Patients may have suffered and died still—but on God’s time and not ours and certainly not by human hands.
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HelpingHands
Guest
Hi Kim,
This is an interesting discussion. What do you think of the whole pain management obsession that we currently have in nursing? I wonder if it’s contributing to this problem. We are taught that death with dignity is a pain free death. In fact, the doc in the article used that term. It’s considered undignified to suffer pain in our current medical culture. In fact our whole society considers any type of suffering to be without value, it seems.
I believe this attitude goes against the Catholic model of the value of suffering and overall view of life. What do you think? Is this attitude towards suffering contributing to euthanasia becoming more and more acceptable by people?
This is an interesting discussion. What do you think of the whole pain management obsession that we currently have in nursing? I wonder if it’s contributing to this problem. We are taught that death with dignity is a pain free death. In fact, the doc in the article used that term. It’s considered undignified to suffer pain in our current medical culture. In fact our whole society considers any type of suffering to be without value, it seems.
I believe this attitude goes against the Catholic model of the value of suffering and overall view of life. What do you think? Is this attitude towards suffering contributing to euthanasia becoming more and more acceptable by people?
M
masondoggy
Guest
kim wilson:
So what your saying is that some of these parents are putting their children under hospice with the intention of deliberately ending their lives? Even when the child isn’t terminal?
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HelpingHands
Guest
Yes, Kim, I’d be interested in hearing more about your experiences and some sampling of the clinical scenarios of these children, without any HIPAA violating specifics. Were the parents choosing to withdraw futile treatments? Did they feel that treatments were too burdensome on the children? What were some the the diagnoses?
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