Patriarch Kirill strengths his position within the Orthodox Church and casts his eye towards Rome

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Patriarch Kirill strengths his position within the Orthodox Church and casts his eye towards Rome:
vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en…ia-kiril-8939/
For the Russian Orthodox Church, this is the biggest reform since 1990. The Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kirill has decided to establish new Eparchies throughout the Country. This will be the biggest ecclesiastical restructuring since the fall of the Soviet Union. The territorial reform decided by Moscow involves three new Eparchies in the North Caucasus: a move that some see as an attempt to strengthen Patriarch Kirill’s power. In line with the redefinition of territories which began last March, creating eight new eparchies, three of which are in the North Caucasus, the Holy Synod has given the go ahead for the formation of 13 more eparchies in the regions of Saratov Irkutsk, Orenburg and Ryazan, as well as in Kazakhstan…
it all boils down to this: if Rome can show that it does not intend to raise Ukraine’s Greek Church to the Patriarchate, then a meeting between the Russian Patriarch and Benedict XVI can be arranged.
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firstthings.com/onthesqua…atholic-church
In addition to the UGCC, three distinct Orthodox Churches exist in Ukraine, each with claims that challenge the legitimacy of the others. This multiplicity is rooted in the trauma of the Soviet era when the world’s largest Orthodox Church, the Moscow Patriarchate, was accused of colluding with the Kremlin. This is sensitive, difficult terrain, and beyond the scope of this essay. But recent news that former KGB officer Vladimir Putin will likely return to the Russian presidency in 2012, underscores the importance of ecclesial politics in the future of Ukraine and all of Eastern Europe…
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In Ukraine there are many keen on strengthening ties with Moscow, even unto reunification. And some of Putin’s critics see in his cultivation of relations with the Moscow Patriarchate, an essential element in a re-imagined imperialism, with Orthodoxy replacing Marxism as the source of its inspiration and broker of its divine mandate. If these critics are on to something, and if history offers a clue, such an agenda would require the elimination of the “competition.” Ominous then, is Weigel’s account of old-school intimidation tactics deployed against an especially impressive UGCC initiative, The Ukrainian Catholic University.
At the same time, Benedict XVI has made progress toward communion with the Orthodox a priority of his pontificate. There are profound theological reasons for this. There is also the mutual recognition that the Latin and Orthodox Churches must forge a genuine evangelical partnership on behalf of Europe. One might even suggest that the restoration of that continent’s soul depends upon the restoration of the unity of the apostolic Church, breathing with “both lungs.”
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firstthings.com/onthesqua…uds-in-ukraine
Those who detect in these maneuvers echoes of the geopolitical aspirations of Vladimir Putin, prime minister of Russia and the true center of power in that country, cannot be accused of paranoid speculation. Putin has long made it clear that he is determined to restore Russian influence—and possibly Russian control—over the old “near abroad,” including Belarus, Moldova, the post-Soviet states of the Caucasus and Central Asia, and, of course, Ukraine
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2 questions:
  1. Will the Pope soon visit Russia?
  2. Would Putin use force to regain Russian control in the Ukraine etc.?
 
Moscow is playing the political game again to prevent the official declaration of the Patriarchy in Ukraine. Its time for the Pope to take a tough stand on this, like the SSPX. Give Russia a deadline to start heading towards communion, or give UGCC the Patriarchate it so deserves. Moscow is just using the Pope’s desire for communion as a way to block the Patriarchate without even taking a step towards communion. Like the SSPX situation, they should show that they are willing to take that step towards communion, or let Rome do what it wants to do with Kyiv.
 
I could not get any of the links to work …
and I don’t understand the connection between The Holy Synod erecting new dioceses and this assertion that Moscow and Rome might be getting closer.

Catholic media is very fond of publishing these stories about the church’s latest and greatest friends in Orthodoxy, but I think that they are only playing to the audience.

From where I sit one question is, what is the price of this ‘unity’ everyone is praying for? What does anyone expect from it? What are you willing to accept?

And finally, do people here think that any single patriarch can bring this about by fiat within his own church?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Moscow is playing the political game again to prevent the official declaration of the Patriarchy in Ukraine.
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I think it is a popular myth to blame Moscow for the fact that the Pope has not given the Ukrainians a patriarch.

Quite honestly, it’s a big excuse.

What people are implying is that the Papacy is spineless.

I think the Popes (there have been several, this has been going on for a long, long time) are not naming patriarchs for the UGCC because they simply do not want to, and for their own reasons.
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
pray for unity
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Queen of the Holy Rosary
You hav e deigned to come to Fatima
to reveal to the three shephard children
the treasures of grace hidden in the Rosary

Inspire my heart with sincere love of this devotion
in order that by meditating upon the mysteries of our redemption
which are recalled in it
I may be enriched with its fruits;
obtain peace for the world
The conversion of sinners
AND of Russia…

Pray the Rosary my brothers and sisters, for Russia to be conscrated.

Peace be with you, Through Christ our Savior!!!
 
Hesychios said:
I think it is a popular myth to blame Moscow for the fact that the Pope has not given the Ukrainians a patriarch.

Quite honestly, it’s a big excuse.

What people are implying is that the Papacy is spineless.

I think the Popes (there have been several, this has been going on for a long, long time) are not naming patriarchs for the UGCC because they simply do not want to, and for their own reasons.
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You have many interesting posts but I have to disagree with you on this one. This does not necessitate the Holy Father being spineless. It means that he is weighing the greater good and considering the implications of his actions.

Let me ask you this. If the Pope did establish a Patriarchate in Ukraine, would not the Russian Orthodox Church use this as a wedge issue to justify not having dialogue? Evidence seems to indicate that they would.

I would also suggest that with Putin running for office again and attempting to consolidate power, there is a factor of the government which needs to be considered.

Its obviously a complex issue so I guess there is ample room for more than one interpretation.
 
At the risk of derailing this thread - what is the formal relationship between the Russian government and Russian Orthodox Church? I know the Tsar was the supreme head of the Church in the old days, and that Soviet leaders used to interfere in episcopal elections, but how does the Church understand its relationship to the state, does it still preach unquestioning obedience as it did in Imperial times? How does the state understand it, is Russia an officially Orthodox country, does the government listen to the Church on moral or social issues? Does Putin expect Orthodox synods to bend to his will?
 
Hesychios said:
I think it is a popular myth to blame Moscow for the fact that the Pope has not given the Ukrainians a patriarch.

Quite honestly, it’s a big excuse.

What people are implying is that the Papacy is spineless.

I think the Popes (there have been several, this has been going on for a long, long time) are not naming patriarchs for the UGCC because they simply do not want to, and for their own reasons.
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Its not about being spineless. The Pope wants unity and everyone applauds him for that. The issue is that the Russians know that too and are using this genuine desire to advance their own agenda. They don’t want a stronger Ukraine, they want a weaker Ukraine because at this point in time, many Ukrainians are entertaining the thought of folding back into Russia. The last thing that they would want is Ukraine having its own Patriarchate which will increase national pride and identity.

The truth is, its a highly politicized environment. Whats happening in Ukraine is not simply about religion anymore.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Its not about being spineless. The Pope wants unity and everyone applauds him for that. The issue is that the Russians know that too and are using this genuine desire to advance their own agenda. They don’t want a stronger Ukraine, they want a weaker Ukraine because at this point in time, many Ukrainians are entertaining the thought of folding back into Russia. The last thing that they would want is Ukraine having its own Patriarchate which will increase national pride and identity.

The truth is, its a highly politicized environment. Whats happening in Ukraine is not simply about religion anymore.
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So are we suggesting that the Vatican would be willing to take advantage of Russian hegemony and sell the UGCC down the river?
 
Hesychios said:
So are we suggesting that the Vatican would be willing to take advantage of Russian hegemony and sell the UGCC down the river?
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Correct me if I’m wrong but Russia has a huge clout in the Orthodox Church. The other Orthodox Churches will not seek communion with Rome if Russia won’t. I believe majority of the Orthodox Churches are open to unification talks, but would only act as one rather than each Church on their own. So the Vatican wants Russia on the table for reunification talks. At this point, I don’t know what Russia’s genuine intention is. All they say is that if Ukraine gets a patriarchate, then they are off the table. There is no guarantee that they will be on it, which is the frustration of many.

The UGCC isn’t keen on seeking its own Patriarchate as much as having a Ukrainian Patriarchate, Catholic or Orthodox. I know some Patriarchs/Major Archbishops in the past who have made such offer that they will even step down their position in favor of an Orthodox Ukrainian Patriarch. Of course one that is in communion with the other Orthodox. The Kiev Patriarchate at this point is a schismatic group from the rest of Orthodoxy, with the Moscow Patriarchate the only canonical Orthodox Church. They don’t want to be under Russia for a long list of reasons.
 
ConstantineTG said:
So are we suggesting that the Vatican would be willing to take advantage of Russian hegemony and sell the UGCC down the river?
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So, should I mark you down for a “yes” on that one? :hmmm:
ConstantineTG said:
The UGCC isn’t keen on seeking its own Patriarchate as much as having a Ukrainian Patriarchate, Catholic or Orthodox.
I know some Patriarchs/Major Archbishops in the past who have made such offer that they will even step down their position in favor of an Orthodox Ukrainian Patriarch.
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Ouch! That almost sounds like phyletism to me. :bigyikes:
ConstantineTG said:
They don’t want to be under Russia for a long list of reasons.
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Honestly, I can understand that.

My problems with the way Rome handles the Eastern Catholic churches are too numerous to mention here, but I will say that the UGCC is not being treated fairly by Rome. I am not as certain as everyone else ‘in the know’ here as to why Rome is taking the position it does but as I see it these are some possibilities based upon what you have told me:

1] Rome is willing to trade the UGCC (about 4MM believers) for a real possibility of getting 120 - 130million or even more Orthodox in obedience.

2] Rome sees this outcry for a Patriarch as symptomatic of some bad behavior it does not want to encourage, like phyletism for instance.

Basically, I am leaning toward box #2 myself.

There is at least one other possibility, it would be pure speculation on my part (but since I see nothing but speculation in these discussions I will mention it): Perhaps Rome does not want another “Melkite” problem on it’s hands. It may be that Rome does not want two or even three Eastern Catholic churches acting as if they are autocephalous and clamoring to dialog or negotiate with the Orthodox directly. Right now, one bad boy is enough. 😃

Again, I must stress that these ideas are all pure speculation … yours, mine and that fly on the wall. NO one really knows why Rome does what it does until Rome speaks frankly on the subject. So far it has said a lot of nice things to everyone, and nothing about it’s own motives.
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Hesychios said:
So, should I mark you down for a “yes” on that one? :hmmm:
Ouch! That almost sounds like phyletism to me. :bigyikes:

Honestly, I can understand that.

My problems with the way Rome handles the Eastern Catholic churches are too numerous to mention here, but I will say that the UGCC is not being treated fairly by Rome. I am not as certain as everyone else ‘in the know’ here as to why Rome is taking the position it does but as I see it these are some possibilities based upon what you have told me:

1] Rome is willing to trade the UGCC (about 4MM believers) for a real possibility of getting 120 - 130million or even more Orthodox in obedience.

2] Rome sees this outcry for a Patriarch as symptomatic of some bad behavior it does not want to encourage, like phyletism for instance.

Basically, I am leaning toward box #2 myself.

There is at least one other possibility, it would be pure speculation on my part (but since I see nothing but speculation in these discussions I will mention it): Perhaps Rome does not want another “Melkite” problem on it’s hands. It may be that Rome does not want two or even three Eastern Catholic churches acting as if they are autocephalous and clamoring to dialog or negotiate with the Orthodox directly. Right now, one bad boy is enough. 😃

Again, I must stress that these ideas are all pure speculation … yours, mine and that fly on the wall. NO one really knows why Rome does what it does until Rome speaks frankly on the subject. So far it has said a lot of nice things to everyone, and nothing about it’s own motives.
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Its not as if the UGCC isn’t holding dialogues with her sister Orthodox Churches of Ukraine. Last time I checked, the Kiev Patriarchate and the UGCC has excellent relations.

Rome is not going for communion for the sake of control. In fact, Rome has been wiling to go back to her role in the first millennium if that is what it takes to achieve unity. Thats a lot to give up. I can’t say the same for Russia.
 
Unfortunately, for the Russian Patriarch I’m in a distant country far far far away.
 
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