Patriarch of Moscow Cyril - There is only One Church!

[Vaseljen]

I wouldn’t expect Russia to give up on it’s interests, and I don’t hate Russia - however, comparing degrees of hypocrisy among politicians is comical. I have been just as direct with those that supported George Bush’s “Christian” President claims, especially regarding his invasion of Iraq. However, in his personal life - which is much more revealing of a politician’s real religious praxis, rather than grandiose public gestures - he’s been an virtuous husband, a good father, a honorable son; at least as far as we know – I would say the same for Jimmy Carter.

It is better to whore around with one young woman than to invade Iraq under false accusations, start a bloody war and kill so many innocent People, for the sake of imperialism.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Still more logical than to let USA have those lands. You would like Yeltsin more, when Russians lived like pigs and worked entire month for few dollars, while US corporations were draining Russia’s resources.

That’s funny, I don’t think the US was asking for Crimea. Besides, do you actually believe the Soviet days were better than capitalist Russia? Sure there were decades of hell during the transition, but after the private sector was set up (despite the oligarchy, which is all Russian, mostly KGB and friends, by the way) the common people were able to gain capital. It’s easy and simplistic to blame “the west” bogeyman for all ills, but rather than succumb to strange conspiracies, why not look internally and see where the money is going and why.

Besides - as far as I’m concerned - Russia isn’t anymore “East” than Poland. It’s just a claim to bolster an underlying agenda.

 

[SyroMalankara]

It is better to whore around with one young woman than to invade Iraq under false accusations, start a bloody war and kill so many innocent People, for the sake of imperialism.

how about both. Crimea, Georgia (August 2008). What’s next - Norway or is it Finland?

 

[Vaseljen]

We ruined this theme.

I will end this discussion with this, Russian economics started to grow in 2000th when Putin came, and right now, over 90% of Russians support him. Ukraine was at peace until west didn’t topple Yanukovich. And yea, Putin divorced and has probably young lover.
Russian Church is happy to have finally someone in charge who does not persecute the Church, but is helping it, so be at least glad about that.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes, it’s obviously different and less homogeneous than Poland, but politically, compared to the Middle East, Asia, the Pacific Rim, etc - Russia is just as Western as any other Western nation

 

[Vaseljen]

how about both. Crimea, Georgia (August 2008). What’s next - Norway or is it Finland?

Still better than distant Iraq. The lands Putin invaded are populated by Russians. He defended them. In Crimea Russia already had 25 000 soldiers and a referendum with over 90% of population voting YES to join Russia, and no one died during that “horrible” crime of Putin.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Russian Church is happy to have finally someone in charge who does not persecute the Church, but is helping it, so be at least glad about that.

Absolutely, and I hope Putin’s intervention - despite his other interests - somehow helps the Christian Syrians and Iraqis, since the US and EU could care less.

Still better than distant Iraq.

Why better? Saddam was propped up with EU/US assistance and it was also his downfall. There’s no clear reason why Putin’s interventions are necessarily ‘better’. The outcome has yet to be determined. Since when does the ends justify the means, objectively?

The lands Putin invaded are populated by Russians. He defended them. In Crimea Russia already had 25 000 soldiers and a referendum with over 90% of population voting YES to join Russia

Of course that definition of “Russian” is in dispute as well. 90% of Ukrainians speak Russian, does that make them “Russian”? Nearly 90% of Indians and 100% of USA speak English, does that make them “UK citizens” - language and culture commonalities do not equate to nationality per se. Also, you don’t find it a tad bit peculiar that Russia had 25000 soldiers in another country before the vote for referendum took place? Wouldn’t it be strange if 25000 US troops were in Canada anticipating Windsor and Toronto voting themselves into the US - before the vote took place? Almost intimidating, isnt’ it?

 

[Cavaradossi]

I agree with you here. Although, I’d say Pan-Slavic identity, rather than Russian national. Putin’s overall goal is to expand (reclaim) the lands lost after the Soviet disintegration (under his rule of course).

I’m not so sure about that. Putin has in 15 years annexed almost no land, except for small breakaway regions where he sent “peacekeepers” (and to be fair, sending peacekeepers is a favorite tactic of all major powers, including NATO, to annex land or create favorable rump states, so Putin is hardly unique in this regard) or where he has armed rebels. In general, his foreign policy has been geared towards defending the former sphere of Russian influence from encroachment by the West, which he regards as being hostile to Russian interests. Whether or not the perceived threat is real, given that Russian policy-makers perceive a threat, their military interventions appear to be intended to defend their present sphere of influence from encroachment rather than being expansionist in nature. (I strongly suspect, actually, that Russia presently cannot afford to annex many of its poorer neighbors anyway, which is why with the exception of Crimea, they normally create de facto autonomous regions as in South Ossetia or Donetsk).

As for a pan-Slavic foreign policy, there is an element of that, but to be honest, I think that the ROC is pushing the Kremlin’s foreign policy to be far more expansive by promoting the idea of an alliance of states opposed to Western “decadence”, which naturally should include all Orthodox states, as well as non-Orthodox states with compatible religious or social persuasions. Should such an expansion of Russian soft power be successful, it would, for Putin, create a stable alliance of states on ideological grounds, and, for the Russian Orthodox Church, strengthen Orthodoxy in Orthodox countries as well as provide a spring-board for Orthodox expansion into other states which wish to resist the “corrupting” influence of the West.

 

[Peter_J]

We ruined this theme.

I will end this discussion with this, Russian economics started to grow in 2000th when Putin came, and right now, over 90% of Russians support him. Ukraine was at peace until west didn’t topple Yanukovich. And yea, Putin divorced and has probably young lover.
Russian Church is happy to have finally someone in charge who does not persecute the Church, but is helping it, so be at least glad about that.

I *am *glad that Russia does not have someone worse than Putin as president, no doubt about that. But that doesn’t change the fact that I find your comparison between him and GW Bust ridiculous. (No, I didn’t see eye-to-eye with Bush; but ridiculous is ridiculous.)

 

[SyroMalankara]

Should such an expansion of Russian soft power be successful, it would, for Putin, create a stable alliance of states on ideological grounds, and, for the Russian Orthodox Church, strengthen Orthodoxy in Orthodox countries as well as provide a spring-board for Orthodox expansion into other states which wish to resist the “corrupting” influence of the West.

Why is the mythical West always pointed as the ‘evil corrupter’ - sure we have our issues in the US/EU; but is it really that much better in the Middle East, or Asia? Or is it simply easier to point at the superpower and blame all the problems “out there”, while we have no need to look internally since we are “pristine”?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Why is the mythical West always pointed as the ‘evil corrupter’ - sure we have our issues in the US/EU; but is it really that much better in the Middle East, or Asia? Or is it simply easier to point at the superpower and blame all the problems “out there”, while we have no need to look internally since we are “pristine”?

I’m not saying I agree, only that I can see why it would be rational for Putin and the ROC to act as they do in tandem, with emphasis on the part where they are willingly cooperating, as opposed to the idea earlier expressed in this thread that the ROC is completely subject to the whims of Vladimir Putin.

As for the need for a mythologized West, I think it is much the same as making mythologized heretics and schismatics to create a sense of common identity (compare, for example, the way St. Photius or Michael Caerularius have been mythologized in the post-schism west, and how the papacy as an institution has been mythologized in the post-schism East).

 

[SyroMalankara]

I’m not saying I agree, only that I can see why it would be rational for Putin and the ROC to act as they do in tandem, with emphasis on the part where they are willingly cooperating, as opposed to the idea earlier expressed in this thread that the ROC is completely subject to the whims of Vladimir Putin.

I think it’s because one has never heard any condemnation of Putin or his policies on anything from the ROC or His Holiness. It’s unheard of in any free nation for the bishops to support everything and/or remain completely silent.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I think it’s because one has never heard any condemnation of Putin or his policies on anything from the ROC or His Holiness. It’s unheard of in any free nation for the bishops to support everything and/or remain completely silent.

Well, considering that their interests are aligned, it’s not so hard to believe that they would pass over his faults in silence. In return, they basically get a blank check to promote whatever moral platform they want in Russia and abroad (in that sense, the relationship can actually be quite the reverse of what people allege, with the Kremlin acting as a mouthpiece for the ROC when it begins moralizing in public statements). Are there short-comings to be found in this state of affairs? Yes, but it’s certainly not the worst arrangement between church and state that I’ve seen.

 

[Vaseljen]

I think it’s because one has never heard any condemnation of Putin or his policies on anything from the ROC or His Holiness. It’s unheard of in any free nation for the bishops to support everything and/or remain completely silent.

I don’t recall Popes of Rome condemning anyone for a long time. Almost all traditional European Roman-Catholic countries have fallen in to complete liberalism, secularism and public praise of debauchery, and what does Pope do about that?
You want Patriarch of Moscow to enter fight with Putin? The man who built and rebuilt thousands of Churches and at least stopped gay lobby. What do you want from Putin and Patriarch Cyril, you want them to create some sort of fanatical hypocrite Christian State (Islamic State) so you could stop condemning them, or you want them to let USA keep building it’s bases and rocket shields in every country Russia borders?
First you make Pope Francis condemn all those politicians in the west who push debauchery down our throats, then you ask Patriarch Cyril to somehow make Putin return to his old wife.
When Obama passed down same-sex marriage law in the USA, why did Holy See receive Obama at the Vatican with honors and kept the same good old relations with the USA, for example.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t recall Popes of Rome condemning anyone for a long time. Almost all traditional European Roman-Catholic countries have fallen in to complete liberalism, secularism and public praise of debauchery, and what does Pope do about that?

Quite a lot. In fact, some say too much.

You want Patriarch of Moscow to enter fight with Putin?

No, did I state that? There’s middle ground between best-friends and mortal enemies, isn’t there?

The man who built and rebuilt thousands of Churches and at least stopped gay lobby.

What do you want from Putin and Patriarch Cyril, you want them to create some sort of fanatical hypocrite Christian State (Islamic State) so you could stop condemning them, or you want them to let USA keep building it’s bases and rocket shields in every country Russia borders?

First you make Pope Francis condemn all those politicians in the west who push debauchery down our throats, then you ask Patriarch Cyril to somehow make Putin return to his old wife.

So European politicians, excluding Putin, are debauching your throat and venerable Putin is the only one holding them back? You mean 2% of gays in the US are hurting your morals in Russia, where nothing immoral goes on? Any hint from American or European media of gays or ‘gasp’ a US base in the non-existent Russian border with Kuwait is alarming you?

When Obama passed down same-sex marriage law in the USA, why did Holy See receive Obama at the Vatican with honors and kept the same good old relations with the USA, for example.

Because he’s the Head of State. He’d do the same for Putin, King Hussein, the Queen of England or anyone else… here’s the Pope on disagreements with US policy: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247609/Francis-takes-Congress-task-immigration-abortion-gay-marriage-Syrian-refugee-crisis-insists-Golden-Rule-approach-politics-Capitol-Hill-address-sitting-pontiff.html – where’s a similar Patriarchal speech?

 

[Vaseljen]

Quite a lot. In fact, some say too much.

No, did I state that? There’s middle ground between best-friends and mortal enemies, isn’t there?




So European politicians, excluding Putin, are debauching your throat and venerable Putin is the only one holding them back? You mean 2% of gays in the US are hurting your morals in Russia, where nothing immoral goes on? Any hint from American or European media of gays or ‘gasp’ a US base in the non-existent Russian border with Kuwait is alarming you?
Because he’s the Head of State. He’d do the same for Putin, King Hussein, the Queen of England or anyone else… here’s the Pope on disagreements with US policy: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247609/Francis-takes-Congress-task-immigration-abortion-gay-marriage-Syrian-refugee-crisis-insists-Golden-Rule-approach-politics-Capitol-Hill-address-sitting-pontiff.html – where’s a similar Patriarchal speech?

 

[Peter_J]

As for the need for a mythologized West, I think it is much the same as making mythologized heretics and schismatics to create a sense of common identity (compare, for example, the way St. Photius or Michael Caerularius have been mythologized in the post-schism west, and how the papacy as an institution has been mythologized in the post-schism East).

Post of the month.

If I may tack on a tidbit from my own life: I have a pretty good amount of experience on an Orthodox forum, and to me it seemed essentially like here only in reverse.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Pope calls Rome mayor a ‘pretend Catholic’ who supports gay marriage and euthanasia:
christiantoday.com/article/pope.calls.rome.mayor.a.pretend.catholic.who.supports.gay.marriage.and.euthanasia/66166.htm

Pope calls for social change in Brazil but are politicians listening?
csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2013/0726/Pope-calls-for-social-change-in-Brazil-but-are-politicians-listening

Some of Pope Francis’ friends -
‘India should protect humans, not just cows’: Cardinal after elderly nun gang-rape:
rt.com/news/242025-india-rape-cows-cardinal/

Baselios Mar Cleemis Catholicos cautions Govt:
newindianexpress.com/cities/thiruvananthapuram/article108213.ece

U.S. Bishops Declare “Intrinsic Evil” of Abortion Must Always Be Opposed:
nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2015/11/u-s-bishops-declare-intrinsic-evil-of-abortion-must-always-be-opposed/#.VmC5DHarTyM

A Seattle bishop’s rebuke to politicians who would slam the door to Syrian refugees:
blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2015/11/17/a-seattle-bishops-rebuke-to-politicians-who-would-slam-the-door-to-syrian-refugees/

The patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church has called upon Iraq’s president to veto a law that will force some Christian children to convert to Islam:
superiorcatholicherald.org/news/national-and-world-news/chaldean-patriarch-welcomes-iraqs-changes-to-national-charter/

 

[Vaseljen]

Pope calls Rome mayor a ‘pretend Catholic’ who supports gay marriage and euthanasia:
christiantoday.com/article/pope.calls.rome.mayor.a.pretend.catholic.who.supports.gay.marriage.and.euthanasia/66166.htm

Pope calls for social change in Brazil but are politicians listening?
csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2013/0726/Pope-calls-for-social-change-in-Brazil-but-are-politicians-listening

Some of Pope Francis’ friends -
‘India should protect humans, not just cows’: Cardinal after elderly nun gang-rape:
rt.com/news/242025-india-rape-cows-cardinal/

Baselios Mar Cleemis Catholicos cautions Govt:
newindianexpress.com/cities/thiruvananthapuram/article108213.ece

U.S. Bishops Declare “Intrinsic Evil” of Abortion Must Always Be Opposed:
nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2015/11/u-s-bishops-declare-intrinsic-evil-of-abortion-must-always-be-opposed/#.VmC5DHarTyM

A Seattle bishop’s rebuke to politicians who would slam the door to Syrian refugees:
blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2015/11/17/a-seattle-bishops-rebuke-to-politicians-who-would-slam-the-door-to-syrian-refugees/

The patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church has called upon Iraq’s president to veto a law that will force some Christian children to convert to Islam:
superiorcatholicherald.org/news/national-and-world-news/chaldean-patriarch-welcomes-iraqs-changes-to-national-charter/

Pff… Pope said Rome’s major is pretend Catholic. That must have hurt the whole secular world, and that Iraqi Patriarch called Iraqi president to prevent backward law that wants to destroy completely his already tiny flock.

I mean… you guys were building your papal power during middle ages to end up like this? One appeal to Iraqi president and one little condemnation of Rome’s major. You can do better than that.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Pff… Pope said Rome’s major is pretend Catholic. That must have hurt the whole secular world, and that Iraqi Patriarch called Iraqi president to prevent backward law that wants to destroy completely his already tiny flock.

I mean… you guys were building your papal power during middle ages to end up like this? One appeal to Iraqi president and one little condemnation of Rome’s major. You can do better than that.

Are we going to play the “holier than thou” game? It’s not a very fun game.