Patriarch of Moscow Cyril - There is only One Church!

[jlhargus]

My opinion is that if someone says their church is thE only one true church you can be confident it isn’t.

I can understand why you would say that. Because all you can see when you look around, for the one Church of God, Christ is building, is a tower of babel. Thousands of groups teaching contradicting doctrine using the same sola scriptura authority and all claiming the Holy Spirit guiding them. Christ is building one church not thousands as he tells us [Mt16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build **my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.] Christ didn’t say my churches.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Roman-Catholic Church today in general is trying to depict some of it’s “odd” teachings as a bit more mild than they might actually be.

I suspect many Catholics hold private reservations concerning papal infallibility. They have to believe what the Church teaches as doctrine but they rational part of them cannot submit to the idea that one man could pronounce infallible doctrine. Hence, they end up in a state of cognitive dissonance–holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time. The only way to resolve this as you have seen on this thread is to reinterpret the doctrine to suit their more modern sensibilities. It’s not really the Pope alone but it is the Pope with the bishops who promulgates doctrine. In effect, this castrates papal infallibility while still holding to it in name only. The same thing can happen with the doctrine of the Eucharist.

Incidentally, I also think this is why some Protestants I’ve spoken to think Catholics can be saved. If they privately hold beliefs not in line with binding Church doctrine, they’re not really holding to the Catholic faith.

 

[jlhargus]

I suspect many Catholics hold private reservations concerning papal infallibility. They have to believe what the Church teaches as doctrine but they rational part of them cannot submit to the idea that one man could pronounce infallible doctrine. Hence, they end up in a state of cognitive dissonance–holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time. The only way to resolve this as you have seen on this thread is to reinterpret the doctrine to suit their more modern sensibilities. It’s not really the Pope alone but it is the Pope with the bishops who promulgates doctrine. In effect, this castrates papal infallibility while still holding to it in name only. The same thing can happen with the doctrine of the Eucharist.

Non sense the pope is infallible when he speaks for the whole Church on matters of faith or morals. Councils, in union with the pope, are also infallible when speaking for the whole Church on faith and morals. It is totally rational to believe a man or council can speak infallibly, with God’s grace, on matters pertaining to salvation. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to lead His people into all truth not hit and miss truth. It is as rational as to believe a man can walk on water or raise the dead but with God’s grace Peter did both. You even accept as infallible the canon of the NT by that same Church.

Incidentally, I also think this is why some Protestants I’ve spoken to think Catholics can be saved. If they privately hold beliefs not in line with binding Church doctrine, they’re not really holding to the Catholic faith.

I’m one of those Catholics they judge to be lost. As a former nondenominational Protestant I can say they even judge other Protestants.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Ah, but I love this enchanted area where answers are simple and i get away with sloppy thinking. There is so much magic in that land. Thanks for sufficiently roasting my response (no sarcasm).

 

[KathleenGee]

Just got off work and am free to comment. Well, this is the first time my feathers were ruffled speaking to the Orthdox, after likewise viewing such in the past.

I do think it very sad.

And it is objective fact that most Catholics do not understand or actually know what papal infallibility is. Some remarks made me think that some of the charges were akin to 1800 American restorationists who believe the Catholic church came about several hundred years later, and we make up as we go along.

Likewise, I am of the flock that has been praying for Russia for many, many years.

So it hurts to not see any Christian reciprocity by Orthodox.

If we have aberrations or faults, are the Orthodox instructed to pray for us or to condemn us?

I no longer have my notes from our ‘Roots of the Papacy’ seminar that went through the fall up to December, and don’t have the time to go back to last December to find the thread to share with others here where I took notes by the suspect American regent theologian.

Where I am in my faith is universal Catholic and now more than ever, am most thankful a Greek Orthodox pastor has allowed me to go to vespers there in the evening and also seeks restoration of our sacred unity.

We only went to around 300 AD, and were not able time wise to go to 600 AD in the history of Latin papacy. But I remember a certain Pope Callistus, himself a former slave, and then freed, was able to do some kind of accounting work, did some kind of wrong doing and could not serve the church in any capacity for 12 years. He did become pope. Then there was a certain bishop who…if I recall properly, would not restore good standing to an apostate Christian. Pope Callistus excommunicated the bishop…and the entire Christian world acquiesed to the pope. Eventually several bishops came forward to address the pope in regards to the bishop, who himself was then restored.

In this example, the pope was more a pastor than following orthodox law dealing with apostates.

You go to the present today. Seventy per cent of the American bishops did not go along with P Francis regarding some new pastoral practices for divorced and remarried. Going back again, P Paul VI requested that all seminaries around the world teach in Latin. They refused.

The pope can never contradict the deposit of faith in Christ. I even asked my seminary professor that if a pope goes against faith or moral teaching in some form, to then consult my catechism for the answer, and he said yes.

So again, there is nothing to add to doctrine, going back to the Council of Nicea. There are no new dogmas to draw on the practice of the tradition of faith.

Popes speak today when publicly to the world, the Living Revelation of Christ, in other words, how we should respond to the Lord in the world today. And as Pope John Paul II exhorted in ‘Veritatis Splendor’, we likewise are to listen to the voice of our conscience.

Anyway, I remain in the Latin Church, pray for the Orthodox, but yes, the remarks and attitudes did pain me. There needs to be alot more humility and forgiveness on both sides.

God bless.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have to ask…Ryan Black…show me the put downs because I have great respect for the Orthodox. And many of us have prayed for the Orthodox people for many years, particularly those in Russia.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

:clapping::clapping:

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Just got off work and am free to comment. Well, this is the first time my feathers were ruffled speaking to the Orthdox, after likewise viewing such in the past.

I do think it very sad.

And it is objective fact that most Catholics do not understand or actually know what papal infallibility is. Some remarks made me think that some of the charges were akin to 1800 American restorationists who believe the Catholic church came about several hundred years later, and we make up as we go along.

Likewise, I am of the flock that has been praying for Russia for many, many years.

So it hurts to not see any Christian reciprocity by Orthodox.

If we have aberrations or faults, are the Orthodox instructed to pray for us or to condemn us?

I no longer have my notes from our ‘Roots of the Papacy’ seminar that went through the fall up to December, and don’t have the time to go back to last December to find the thread to share with others here where I took notes by the suspect American regent theologian.

Where I am in my faith is universal Catholic and now more than ever, am most thankful a Greek Orthodox pastor has allowed me to go to vespers there in the evening and also seeks restoration of our sacred unity.

We only went to around 300 AD, and were not able time wise to go to 600 AD in the history of Latin papacy. But I remember a certain Pope Callistus, himself a former slave, and then freed, was able to do some kind of accounting work, did some kind of wrong doing and could not serve the church in any capacity for 12 years. He did become pope. Then there was a certain bishop who…if I recall properly, would not restore good standing to an apostate Christian. Pope Callistus excommunicated the bishop…and the entire Christian world acquiesed to the pope. Eventually several bishops came forward to address the pope in regards to the bishop, who himself was then restored.

In this example, the pope was more a pastor than following orthodox law dealing with apostates.

You go to the present today. Seventy per cent of the American bishops did not go along with P Francis regarding some new pastoral practices for divorced and remarried. Going back again, P Paul VI requested that all seminaries around the world teach in Latin. They refused.

The pope can never contradict the deposit of faith in Christ. I even asked my seminary professor that if a pope goes against faith or moral teaching in some form, to then consult my catechism for the answer, and he said yes.

So again, there is nothing to add to doctrine, going back to the Council of Nicea. There are no new dogmas to draw on the practice of the tradition of faith.

Popes speak today when publicly to the world, the Living Revelation of Christ, in other words, how we should respond to the Lord in the world today. And as Pope John Paul II exhorted in ‘Veritatis Splendor’, we likewise are to listen to the voice of our conscience.

Anyway, I remain in the Latin Church, pray for the Orthodox, but yes, the remarks and attitudes did pain me. There needs to be alot more humility and forgiveness on both sides.

God bless.

What they say and do has no bearing on you or the validity or standing of the Catholic Church. Try not to be too disappointed. From previous personal experience I’ve grown to expect it so I am not surprised. However I do value my friendship with two Orthodoxians in my town. They are an exception. :hug1:

 

[RyanBlack]

I have to ask…Ryan Black…show me the put downs because I have great respect for the Orthodox. And many of us have prayed for the Orthodox people for many years, particularly those in Russia.

“…the ill will and lack of Christian charity or the ongoing put downs by the Orthodox.”

“So it hurts to not see any Christian reciprocity by Orthodox.”

“The universal Petrine church must have very clear doctrines and norms because it is evangelical bringing the Gospel to all peoples and cultures and languages. We are not determined by our region but by our sole ecclesial identity, different than the various Orthodox who are closely tied with their respective governments.”

“So the Latin Church because of its charism of universality has to define and have clear doctrines for the many kinds of people. I understand Orthodox cultures to be more homogenous and so your devotions and practices are more specific to most people. Ours are not.”

“That is my basic problem with Orthodoxy is its ties to particular cultures. So if you are not a member of that cultural church, then you are more on the outside…and this goes against my Latin sense of universality…and the Gospel.”

“I believe there has been sins on both sides, and the Orthodox as such in this area does not demonstrate the fullness of the gospel by forgiveness.”

“I see a lot of bad will towards Catholics that we do not have at all towards the Orthodox.”

“If the Council of Florence had been successful, we would not see the tremendous fragmentation and disunity within Christianity caused by so many who want to be the boss and final voice.”

“But being a Roman Catholic, my past impression was that you have to be Greek to be part of this church, that goes against the more transcendent reality of the universal faith and living out the Gospel.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Truly…what is put down about that???

I would like to ask the Orthodox, as my Bolivian Catholic priest asked me to ask again as well,
regarding our disagreements…how many leaders within Orthodoxy request their laity to pray for Catholics and our unity???

We have been praying for Russia for many years.

John Paul II went to Greece to ask forgiveness for the Church’s past sins, but it didn’t happen.

And yes, the common perception of Orthodoxy is the ethnic, nationalist ties over sacred communion among Christians.

So again I would like to ask…how much of the Orthodox Church calls on its members to pray for us? I mean, pray for us Catholics and the Roman Church?

 

[Kmon23]

Truly…what is put down about that???

I would like to ask the Orthodox, as my Bolivian Catholic priest asked me to ask again as well,
regarding our disagreements…how many leaders within Orthodoxy request their laity to pray for Catholics and our unity???

We have been praying for Russia for many years.

John Paul II went to Greece to ask forgiveness for the Church’s past sins, but it didn’t happen.

For union between Catholics and Orthodox, there is a very varied view. Some who were once Catholic (or almost became Catholic before Orthodox), may have great respect for the Catholic faith and hope for reunion. However a more majority view is that Catholics are in schism and in heresy. This view would not be due to ill will, but just the facts with the (insert long list of doctrinal disagreements). Because of this, reunion is impossible unless Rome backs down from certain teachings. But considering dogmatic teachings in Catholicism are irrevocable, reunion would seem impossible. Hence reunion would be an impossibility, and why many Orthodox are not optimistic for reunion. With this view, if anything it would just lead to more dialogue and lets the two communions be on more friendly terms for the churches but won’t fix the schism, which dialogue between our churches should be aiming for.

The main majority view however, is that the Catholic faith is not relevant to us as Orthodox, and if there is to be reunion, then it’s for the Catholic faith to come back to us since we have held the true faith as we believe.

It’s not to say that this view is how Orthodox view every non-EO church. I would say though that at for concerning Oriental Orthodox, there is a much more optimistic view than the RC view since Oriental Orthodoxy do not have dogmatic teachings that Catholicism does that has tied them to an irreversible situation.

Regarding John Paul II though, great respect for that man, and although many Orthodox do not have much to think of him (since they probably don’t know much about him at all, since majority just don’t think much about Catholicism), I would say that many Orthodox would hold him in high esteem if they got to know him.

And yes, the common perception of Orthodoxy is the ethnic, nationalist ties over sacred communion among Christians.

So again I would like to ask…how much of the Orthodox Church calls on its members to pray for us? I mean, pray for us Catholics and the Roman Church?

And for the ethnic ties, I wouldn’t deny that. But I also would not deny this as the result of the history Orthodoxy had to face with communism, hence such ties to one’s ethnicity is a natural outcome. Not to endorse it, but understandable. Especially since I am Korean, and all my Orthodox parish members are not, I still find it understandable for why we are in this position. And in terms of praying for Catholics, it’s for the same reason why Catholics have not been explicitly praying for Orthodox before the Catholic Church’s orientation towards ecumenical dialogue. And for Orthodox, our prayers are primarily concerned with the Middle East and in Ukraine.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Truly…what is put down about that???

I would like to ask the Orthodox, as my Bolivian Catholic priest asked me to ask again as well,
regarding our disagreements…how many leaders within Orthodoxy request their laity to pray for Catholics and our unity???

We have been praying for Russia for many years.

John Paul II went to Greece to ask forgiveness for the Church’s past sins, but it didn’t happen.

And yes, the common perception of Orthodoxy is the ethnic, nationalist ties over sacred communion among Christians.

So again I would like to ask…how much of the Orthodox Church calls on its members to pray for us? I mean, pray for us Catholics and the Roman Church?

Highlighted above. ??? Do you mean The Greeks couldn’t find it in their spirit or heart to forgive? I never knew this incident took place, do you have a source link?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

For union between Catholics and Orthodox, there is a very varied view. And in terms of praying for Catholics, it’s for the same reason why Catholics have not been explicitly praying for Orthodox before the Catholic Church’s orientation towards ecumenical dialogue. And for Orthodox, our prayers are primarily concerned with the Middle East and in Ukraine.

Hogwash. I personally know Catholic groups and individuals around the world that prayed for the Orthodox Church for decades. In my parish there is a group that has prayed for Russia and the Orthodox for over 50years. Their oldest member is 72yo, she was there when the prayer group started 52years ago.

 

[Kmon23]

Hogwash. I personally know Catholic groups and individuals around the world that prayed for the Orthodox Church for decades. In my parish there is a group that has prayed for Russia and the Orthodox for over 50years. Their oldest member is 72yo, she was there when the prayer group started 52years ago.

That’s commendable and great for Catholic groups to be praying as you mentioned.
However, I’m not talking about the lack of prayers at all. In any time period, I’m sure we can always find someone in each communion praying for reunion. But I’m speaking of the explicit-large scale prayers for dialogue/reunion that we see today, which is what I’m referring to, and this kind of explicit prayers and dialogue ultimately stem from the ecumenical movement and dialogue of Catholics with other churches within the last century, hence why I said Catholics have not been explicitly praying for Orthodox as led by the hierarchy and as a church prior to this current period of ecumenical dialogue.

And for the praying of Russia I assume has its roots stemming from Fatima if I am not mistaken at least in regards to pre-ecumenical dialogue with Orthodox. And then of course the ecumenical dialogue with the onset of the lifting of the 1054 anathemas, and then even more so especially since Vatican II. And in its historical context, I would say it is similar to Eastern Orthodox praying for Orthodox in general (OO included) because of the crisis in the Middle East.

And I don’t mean this to put down Catholics, as this applies in general for all communions. For the same reason Orthodox have not been praying explicitly for OO in general the last millenia+ (but now from the Middle East Crisis), or for Catholics explicitly praying for dialogue and unity with Protestants before the turn of the 20th century.

No offense intended. I’m just talking very generally here.

 

[prodromos]

We pray for the whole world. Why would we pray specifically for Roman Catholics?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

We pray for the whole world. Why would we pray specifically for Roman Catholics?

Whose asking you too?

 

[RyanBlack]

Truly…what is put down about that???

I would like to ask the Orthodox, as my Bolivian Catholic priest asked me to ask again as well,
regarding our disagreements…how many leaders within Orthodoxy request their laity to pray for Catholics and our unity???

We have been praying for Russia for many years.

John Paul II went to Greece to ask forgiveness for the Church’s past sins, but it didn’t happen.

And yes, the common perception of Orthodoxy is the ethnic, nationalist ties over sacred communion among Christians.

So again I would like to ask…how much of the Orthodox Church calls on its members to pray for us? I mean, pray for us Catholics and the Roman Church?

As someone who was once Orthodox, I find those things I quoted to be condescending and insulting.

As to your questions about the Orthodox and prayer for Catholics and for unity, in all of their Divine Liturgies, they pray for the whole world, and for unity.

“For peace of the whole world, for the stability of the holy churches of God, and for the unity of all, let us pray to the Lord.”

 

[prodromos]

I would like to ask the Orthodox, as my Bolivian Catholic priest asked me to ask again as well,
regarding our disagreements…how many leaders within Orthodoxy request their laity to pray for Catholics and our unity???

Since we pray for the whole world, Catholics would be included in that prayer.

We have been praying for Russia for many years.

Only since Fatima. We haven’t had any visits from St Mary asking us to pray specifically for you guys.

John Paul II went to Greece to ask forgiveness for the Church’s past sins, but it didn’t happen.

Demonstrate fruit of repentance. The Catholic Church has profited greatly at the expense of the Orthodox, particularly with the sack of Constantinople. Is it genuine to ask forgiveness while still hanging onto the innumerable relics which now grace many Catholic Churches in Italy?

And yes, the common perception of Orthodoxy is the ethnic, nationalist ties over sacred communion among Christians.

This describes the ethnic divide that was so apparent in the Catholic Church not many decades ago. Polish and Irish parishes which had nothing to do with each other.

So again I would like to ask…how much of the Orthodox Church calls on its members to pray for us? I mean, pray for us Catholics and the Roman Church?

We are waiting to hear what Panagia has to say.

 

[John_Lazarus]

I agree.

The Schism did not occur overnight. When it finally happened, the rift existed for centuries. It will not be healed in our lifetime, I don’t think, but I believe it will inevitably happen, religious triumphalists on either side notwithstanding. Whether the Orthodox “join” the Catholics, or the Catholics “join” the Orthodox, or we all run out and buy a bajillion copies of Dianetics(…just kidding! ), God’s will shall (eventually) be done.

God took billions of years to create the universe and all that in it is, and for Him it was a mere six days. So I think He is used to taking the long view. It will happen in His time, not ours.

As a sinful Christian down in the pews, I’ll just pray that cooler, wiser, and holier heads than mine will prevail.

 

[prodromos]

Hey, I’m just trying to keep the Catholics honest.