Patriarch reprimands priests who have left Iraq without permission [CWN]

[saintjohnxxiii]

Here, I’ll make it easy for you. Please link or quote where the Patriarch stated he wanted the priests and religious to return in order for them to be martyred. Or, if you can’t do that, how about a link or quote in which the Patriarch states he is staying in Iraq in order to be martyred. No need to discuss how Canon Law actually isn’t something that one can ignore when it is inconvenient, especially when one has taken religious vows. No need even to discuss how your new argument of it being immoral of him to make them martyrs means him being in Iraq or on the moon has no bearing on his statement. Nope, just provide us with where the Patriarch came out and said he wanted all those priests and religious back because he wanted them to be martyred.

The Patriarch doesn’t have to say it. Its a logical conclusion based upon the facts in the situation.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The Patriarch doesn’t have to say it. Its a logical conclusion based upon the facts in the situation.

Ah, so the Patriarch is lying to everyone. He really isn’t concerned about the priests and religious not breaking their vows and fulfilling their duties to their flocks (you know, what he has actually said), he wants them to be martyrs because that’s the only logical conclusion. Any other moral judgments you wish to make against the Patriarch?

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Ah, so the Patriarch is lying to everyone. He really isn’t concerned about the priests and religious not breaking their vows and fulfilling their duties to their flocks (you know, what he has actually said), he wants them to be martyrs because that’s the only logical conclusion. Any other moral judgments you wish to make against the Patriarch?

Lying? What a ridiculous statement to make. Let me make it simple for you because clearly you aren’t understanding this. The Patriarch is telling the Priests who left Iraq without permission of their Superiors that they should have gotten permission from their Superiors before leaving.

Now the reason why they left with their congregation is because ISIS is nearby murdering every Christian they can see. If Priests and Religious have to wait and possibly be ordered to stay is to risk being a Martyr.

The Vow of Obedience is big but there are limits as to what can be imposed and what can’t. Honestly I don’t believe that a Superior can ORDER a person to be a Martyr.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Lying? What a ridiculous statement to make. Let me make it simple for you because clearly you aren’t understanding this. The Patriarch is telling the Priests who left Iraq without permission of their Superiors that they should have gotten permission from their Superiors before leaving.

Now the reason why they left with their congregation is because ISIS is nearby murdering every Christian they can see. If Priests and Religious have to wait and possibly be ordered to stay is to risk being a Martyr.

The Vow of Obedience is big but there are limits as to what can be imposed and what can’t. Honestly I don’t believe that a Superior can ORDER a person to be a Martyr.

Let me make it simple for you. Your entire position is based on the Patriarch ordering them back in order to make them martyrs. The Patriarch has given a public statement as to why he wants the priests and religious to return. Said public statement has nothing to do with the Patriarch wanting the priests and religious to be martyrs. Said public statements reference their vows and their flocks.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Let me make it simple for you. Your entire position is based on the Patriarch ordering them back in order to make them martyrs. The Patriarch has given a public statement as to why he wants the priests and religious to return. Said public statement has nothing to do with the Patriarch wanting the priests and religious to be martyrs. Said public statements reference their vows and their flocks.

In addition saying they are to return to Iraq, he also stated that the should not have left without permission.

You’re really being obtuse on this and the questions you’ve presented have been answered repeatedly, besides being in the OP’s article including the link to the full story.

Jim

 

[oldcatholicguy]

In addition saying they are to return to Iraq, he also stated that the should not have left without permission.

You’re really being obtuse on this and the questions you’ve presented have been answered repeatedly, besides being in the OP’s article including the link to the full story.

Jim

I’m being obtuse? I’m not the one who keeps trying to claim the superior wants them to become martyrs. I’m not the one who keeps claiming this even though both articles linked in this thread clearly indicate the superior wants them back for other reasons.

It’s very simple. The clergy and religious have taken vows. Part of these vows is obedience to their superiors. Not obedience to their superiors as long as said obedience doesn’t place their lives in danger. Not obedience to their superiors as long as said superior is in the same geographic location as them. Not obedience to their superiors as long as said superior is a moral individual. It’s obedience to their superiors unless said superior orders something immoral. Holding the priests and religious to their vows of obedience and their duties to their flocks isn’t immoral. It isn’t even immoral if there is a very good possibility that said obedience will result in their deaths.

Is the Patriarch making them return in order to make them die/become martyrs? Nope. How do we know this? Because the Patriarch has stated why he wants the priests and religious to return and “I want them all to die/become martyrs” wasn’t in his statements. Does the Patriarch know that them returning has a good possibility of resulting in their deaths? Yep, that’s the part concerning not being able to choice where and how one dies (I’m paraphrasing here, I can cite the actual wording if you wish).

 

[Seraphim73]

What a ridiculous conversation.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Does the Patriarch know that them returning has a good possibility of resulting in their deaths? Yep, that’s the part concerning not being able to choice where and how one dies (I’m paraphrasing here, I can cite the actual wording if you wish).

This is the heart of what I am saying and I believe JimR-OCDS is saying. However I think its more than just a GOOD possibility but a very real one. Can the Patriarch morally compel the Priests and Religious to return to face certain death. I don’t know to be honest.

 

[vz71]

Aside from the vow of obedience to their superiors, do they not have a responsibility to their flock?

The wolves are descending upon the flock and the shepherd has run away.

I agree that it is a tough situation to be in. But as long as there is a flock to be tended, as long as there are Catholics there, shouldn’t the priest be there?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Aside from the vow of obedience to their superiors, do they not have a responsibility to their flock?

They fled Northern Iraq with their flocks and lived in the refugee camps with them.

Any Christians who stayed behind were slaughtered by ISIS.

Mosul, there aren’t any Christians left there.

Jm