Patriotic Masses

[Tis_Bearself]

As you know, veneration and worship are different things. Do you venerate the flag in the same way you would a crucifix? What is the difference if not?

Why would you think we “venerate” the flag of a nation? Unlike a crucifix or cross, it is not a sacramental, nor is it a representation of God or his ultimate sacrifice for us. We don’t even put flags in the sanctuary (I believe the bishops have directed that they not be placed there).

I agree with Cruciferi, just where are you going with this? It seems like you are posting in bad faith, as it’s already been made quite clear that we don’t worship or venerate secular items like flags.

 

[pnewton]

Is it not, when taken too far,a form of idolatry? Is flag veneration not a step towards this?

Nope and nope.

 

[FiveLinden]

It seems like you are posting in bad faith, as it’s already been made quite clear that we don’t worship or venerate secular items like flags.

I have never, ever, suggested that flags are worshiped. I have asked an entirely reasonable question about whether their treatment in a religious context constitutes ‘veneration’ and if not, why not. No one has answered this question. I do not understand why I am making people upset. Just wanting to understand the thinking.

 

[PeterT]

God would certainly approve of us asking God to bless and guide our country, which would include guiding leaders away from doing unjust or wrong things. God would also approve of us praying for the souls of those who died serving their country, or as the result of an act of war (such as 9/11), regardless of whether the country’s action was good or bad judgment.

In any event, a patriotic Mass is not about asking God to bless our violence. People these days have a very warped idea of what the word “patriotism” means.

Absolutely God would approve and that’s why in the Roman Missal there are Masses “For the Nation or State” and “For Those in Public Office” and “For a Governing Assembly” and “For the Head of State or Ruler”.

At the church I usually attend, on the Fourth of July (if it’s not on a Sunday), the Mass the priest will celebrate on the Fourth of July (Independence Day) is usually the Mass “For the Nation or State”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have never, ever, suggested that flags are worshiped. I have asked an entirely reasonable question about whether their treatment in a religious context constitutes ‘veneration’ and if not, why not. No one has answered this question. I do not understand why I am making people upset. Just wanting to understand the thinking.

Your question is upsetting because it’s basically asking us if we commit idolatry.

We worship God.
We venerate Mary and the saints. This could take the form of venerating something associated with them, for example a relic of a saint.
We may also venerate some symbol or object that we directly associate with God, such as the cross, or the Shroud of Turin if we believe it is real, or an image of the Holy Face of Jesus.

We don’t venerate secular things, and it’s insulting to say that we do. We don’t even act like we venerate secular things. Catholics don’t kneel and pray before a flag or kiss it. And not even the Protestants who might accuse us of idol worship for kneeling to pray in front of a statue of a saint accuse us of venerating flags.

You’re being extremely disrespectful towards our faith and acting innocent about it. If you needed a detailed explanation, I’ve provided one; now please stop.

 

[blackforest]

I have never, ever, suggested that flags are worshiped.

Ah, come on! Don’t back pedal now! Look at your stream of rhetorical questions.

Is it not, when taken too far,a form of idolatry? Is flag veneration not a step towards this?

Now to address your question.

As you know, veneration and worship are different things. Do you venerate the flag in the same way you would a crucifix? What is the difference if not?

Exactly. Veneration simply means showing reverence. Where you’re getting confused is in the nuance: We venerate what we worship but don’t always worship what we venerate.

I also show reverence toward elderly military veterans, beautiful sunsets, a crucifix, and a favorite author who comes to town. I don’t worship any of them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I myself don’t use the word “reverence” for anything that isn’t holy or involving God.

I would show Respect for the flag, the National Anthem, a veteran, a first responder.
I would show Reverence for a Bible, a crucifix, when inside a church, etc.

As the t-shirt saying goes, “I salute the flag and take a knee to God.”

 

[blackforest]

I don’t have a problem using “reverence” and “respect” interchangeably. But equivocating between reverence/respect and worship really gets on me, as does the implication that the former is some slippery slope to the latter. Idolatry simply means placing something else ahead of God. I can’t mind-read people attending Mass to know if they think the U.S. is more important than God - or money, or success, or sex, or this or that; that’s between them and God.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Here’s a snippet that I remember from the book “Rebuilt: Awakening the Faithful” that was supposed to be so ground-breaking in 2013. It’s about the (controversial) Catholic Church that some people say uses “megachurch” tactics to get people in the doors.

Welcome. We're Glad You're Here.

Our Roman Catholic community of faith in North Baltimore is dedicated to reaching everyone with the message of Jesus Christ.

www.churchnativity.com

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I guess musicians are supposed to keep it short and snappy on American patriotic holidays so people can get to the pool.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Is it not, when taken too far,a form of idolatry? Is flag veneration not a step towards this?

The operative words here are “when taken too far”.

We may bow for the flag, but we don’t genuflect for the flag. OK, not unless we’re Kaepernick.

 

[FiveLinden]

I also don’t see how asking people to wear red, white and blue is a problem. Those are the colors of our national flag and not partisan.

So would there be a problem with partisan political colours?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Church in USA generally doesn’t permit its clergy to engage in partisan politics, such as encouraging parishioners to support one party over another, so any behavior seen as partisan (including suggesting people wear colors of a certain party, if we had colors associated with a certain party, which we don’t apart from the “red state and blue state” distinction on the news, which does not generally carry over into what individuals wear - you will see Republicans wearing blue and so forth) would be disallowed, largely because it could potentially affect the tax status of the Church, and also because it would be seen as divisive.

I am not sure how the Church would handle this rule if a strong anti-clerical party emerged in the US, but that hasn’t happened in at least the last century. We had some in the early years of the US but the Church here wasn’t much of a force then as it later became after many, many Catholic immigrants landed here.

 

[Cruciferi]

No. The Church is not going to create a color dress code for people attending Mass.

 

[Peeps]

So would there be a problem with partisan political colours?

There’s no such thing. The “red and blue” states are strictly a creation of the news media to help voters follow election outcomes (they show a map of the states and the colors indicates whether the state has voted Republican or Democrat for the President). I think they also use a color for Independent when there is a candidate who receives enough votes to capture a state, but I can’t remember what color is used. It doesn’t happen very often.

It might be good for you to know that there is a “Flag Code” in the U.S… Here’s a link:

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

I believe the Boy Scouts of America are responsible for this Flag Code, which is supposed to be used across the country. But I’m not sure about Boy Scouts anymore, as they have recently gone through some major changes in their format (e.g., girls can now join the Boy Scouts and earn the Eagle Scout award, a prestigious award that takes years to earn).

Currently most people in the U.S. don’t know what the rules of the Flag Code are. But it’s possible that when you see various ceremonies with the U.S. Flag (e.g., the folding of the flag and the presentation of the flag to deceased veteran’s relatives (we had this at my dad’s funeral), that you think this is some kind of “veneration” of the flag. Not at all–it’s merely following the Flag Code.

As for somehow diminishing the Lord when patriotic songs or prayers are used at Mass–not at all! The Bible and the Catechism make it clear that we need to pray for our governments and countries, recognizing that we should be thankful when governments in power allow their citizens to freely practice their faith and come together to worship.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

No. The Church is not going to create a color dress code for people attending Mass.

Judging by the types of clothing articles constantly posted here, the Church would seem to have enough issues just making sure people had decent clothes on without policing the colors of them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There’s no such thing. The “red and blue” states are strictly a creation of the news media to help voters follow election outcomes (they show a map of the states and the colors indicates whether the state has voted Republican or Democrat for the President).

Yeah, what’s really funny is that in the early days of using “red and blue” distinction, the TV stations used the blue for the Republicans and the red for the Dems. After a few elections it got randomly switched somehow.

I have never met a person from either major party in US who went around dressed in a certain color to be “partisan”. Politicians and those who dress for the public eye are more interested in the psychology of colors. Hillary Clinton wore a red (not blue) pantsuit to her first debate with Trump because red is a power color. Trump wore a blue suit which is a standard suit color for a man, and a blue tie rather than red; blue is considered to convey credibility and believability.

 

[Cruciferi]

Exactly!

 

[PeterT]

Yeah, what’s really funny is that in the early days of using “red and blue” distinction, the TV stations used the blue for the Republicans and the red for the Dems. After a few elections it got randomly switched somehow.

Yes, I remember those days, Red was associated with Democrats because the color Red around the world is the color associated with most left leaning political parties, while Blue was associated with the more conservative “Blue Blooded” Republican Parties. Here’s a screenshot of the NBC Decision 1980 Presidential Election Map where Ronald Reagan won big over Jimmy Carter:

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[Athanasiy]

There are national saints and fathers of the nation for whom the state is above all. In their taxonomy of values, there is nothing higher than sacrificing oneself for strengthening the nation and state-creative, state-reinforcing foundation, and the Christian faith should inspire the citizen of the state for to defend, fight, and die with honor if necessary, protecting the borders of the state.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think the vast majority of people in the USA think that way. Nobody came here to make a state that they place “above all”. They came here to make a state where they could succeed economically and have the freedom to speak, live and worship the way they want, and be free of unjust government interference, not so they could make “The State” into an idol and reason for existence. The US also doesn’t have much concept of “national saints”, and the “fathers of the nation” weren’t exactly a self-sacrificing bunch (nor particularly holy or religious in many cases). They took a big personal and economic risk that paid off in economic gain.