Patriotic music at Mass

[TimothyH]

Amen to that. But I’ve heard it in many a Southern church. I think it is a testament to just how ignorant folks are of history. But even if you aren’t aware the words are nothing but martial, nothing but a particular wars propaganda and thoroughly Unitarian and therefore nothing Christian. Its popularity in the South might also be a testament to just how little people reflect on the words when singing.

Perhapse it is you who is ignorant of history. The war ended 147 years ago.

Lincoln pardoned everyone. Grant ordered his troops not to cheer at their own victory and they gave half their rations to the confederate soldiers whom they defeated. Union troops even saluted the defeated confederates as they marched past. And General Lee in his memoirs, expressed his gratitude for it. They let it go. I know many people who can’t seem to do so today.

When I visited Grant’s tomb in New York City, I was struck by the murals on the wall which contained the words “Let there be peace.” This is a stark contrast to the monument which stands four miles from my house in Kennesaw Georgia, on the top of Pine Hill, at the spot where Confederate General (and Episcopalian Bishop) Leonidas Polk was killed. It reads, “Veni, Vedi, Vici” (we came, we saw, we conquored). The former speaks of peace. The latter speaks of conquest.

The national cemetery in Marietta, Georgia is a most beautiful place. I have prayed there. The confederate cemetery is less so, given the financial situation of the times in which it was constructed, but I have prayed there too. But what strikes me how the confederates put a cannon on a pedastal in the cemetery, pointing at the Union cemetery a half mile away. There it stands to this day, 147 years later, a cannon in the middle of a cemetery pointed at another cemetery. I wish they would get rid of it. I wonder how the men on both sides who gave thier lives in that war, many of whom might still be in Purgatory, feel about that cannon.

And 622,000 men did give their lives. And still some of the living can’t seem to let it go to this day. Even the city of Vicksburg Mississippi let it go, raising the US flag on the day the US was attacked by Japan. But people still complain about songs, as if it matters.

If Lincoln could have the US Marine Corps band play “Dixie” on the lawn of the White House, and if Grant could express his gratitude and live peacfully in the USA, even after they buried dead soldiers in his wife’s rose garden, then why can’t we let it go.

It’s just a song. And the war is over.

-Tim-

 

[pnewton]

Because it was written by a Unitarian does not make it bad. Because it shows muddle Unitarian theology makes it bad.

That is an interesting opinion, and one I have never heard before. The idea that of Unitarian theology intrigues me, since by their very nature they promote universalism.

Amen to that. But I’ve heard it in many a Southern church. I think it is a testament to just how ignorant folks are of history…Its popularity in the South might also be a testament to just how little people reflect on the words when singing.

Now that is unfair. People are not ignorant of history because they do not hold generational grudges, nor are they failing to reflective because they do not agree with your opinion.

 

[benedictgal]

Perhapse it is you who is ignorant of history. The war ended 147 years ago.

Lincoln pardoned everyone. Grant ordered his troops not to cheer at their own victory and they gave half their rations to the confederate soldiers whom they defeated. Union troops even saluted the defeated confederates as they marched past. And General Lee in his memoirs, expressed his gratitude for it. They let it go. I know many people who can’t seem to do so today.

When I visited Grant’s tomb in New York City, I was struck by the murals on the wall which contained the words “Let there be peace.” This is a stark contrast to the monument which stands four miles from my house in Kennesaw Georgia, on the top of Pine Hill, at the spot where Confederate General (and Episcopalian Bishop) Leonidas Polk was killed. It reads, “Veni, Vedi, Vici” (we came, we saw, we conquored). The former speaks of peace. The latter speaks of conquest.

The national cemetery in Marietta, Georgia is a most beautiful place. I have prayed there. The confederate cemetery is less so, given the financial situation of the times in which it was constructed, but I have prayed there too. But what strikes me how the confederates put a cannon on a pedastal in the cemetery, pointing at the Union cemetery a half mile away. There it stands to this day, 147 years later, a cannon in the middle of a cemetery pointed at another cemetery. I wish they would get rid of it. I wonder how the men on both sides who gave thier lives in that war, many of whom might still be in Purgatory, feel about that cannon.

And 622,000 men did give their lives. And still some of the living can’t seem to let it go to this day. Even the city of Vicksburg Mississippi let it go, raising the US flag on the day the US was attacked by Japan. But people still complain about songs, as if it matters.

If Lincoln could have the US Marine Corps band play “Dixie” on the lawn of the White House, and if Grant could express his gratitude and live peacfully in the USA, even after they buried dead soldiers in his wife’s rose garden, then why can’t we let it go.

It’s just a song. And the war is over.

-Tim-

But, you don’t play Dixie at a church service, Protestant or Catholic. Furthermore, in certain parts of the South, the song evokes bad feelings. There are some priests down here who refuse to have that song used at Masses that they celebrate. It’s also a bad piece of music with no theological merit to it.

I love Texas; I just wouldn’t want to use “Texas Our Texas” at any Mass celebrated on March 2nd, our Independence Day.

 

[exnihilo]

If Lincoln could have the US Marine Corps band play “Dixie” on the lawn of the White House, and if Grant could express his gratitude and live peacfully in the USA, even after they buried dead soldiers in his wife’s rose garden, then why can’t we let it go.

It’s just a song. And the war is over.

I’m sure you know this, because your history seems to be very accurate, but it was the rose garden of Lee’s wife.

Regarding the war I think there are great principles worth considering. I’d also say that history is important. And whether we have a strong opinion about history or not the events of the past influence today. Total war, requiring unconditional surrender and occupation, the holiness and righteousness of the US, and the rejection of the principle that we can form our own government were affirmed by that war. Also as far as letting go the War was bad enough but the occupation and its effects were terrible. That isn’t to say that one shouldn’t forgive or move on, but it explains why folks have the strong opinion they do.

 

[pnewton]

I love Texas; I just wouldn’t want to use “Texas Our Texas” at any Mass celebrated on March 2nd, our Independence Day.

Me either. I reserve that for San Jac Day, except when if falls during Holy Week.

 

[benedictgal]

Me either. I reserve that for San Jac Day, except when if falls during Holy Week.

Of course, the Eyes of Texas does have an “end of the liturgial year” feel to it since it does refer to Gabriel blowing his horn.

 

[exnihilo]

Now that is unfair. People are not ignorant of history because they do not hold generational grudges, nor are they failing to reflective because they do not agree with your opinion.

You are right. But people are very ignorant of history. And you are right that disagreeing with my opinion does not make people reflective. But again, most folks are not very reflective.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I notice you are Protestant this may be where we are having the diconnect about the Dogma of Mary - I specifically highlighted the verses that mention Mary - it talks about crushing the Serpent with the Heel - that specifically applies to the Virgin Mary.

The Trumpets Sounding is a metaphor for Jericho.

Yes I already said I can see Benedictgal’s point about playing this one in the South - you will notice I am from the North - however - the words themselves go along with the specific stanzas that I have outlined for you. If you are willing to be openminded I am willing to pull dogma and doctrine.

As far as the resurrection - the Easter Lily as often been used as a symbol for the Resurrection which has often been used as a rebirth - you cannot take that one sentence alone but look at the entire stanza which is speaking of the Resurrection not the birth - it uses the word birth in lillies to speak metaphorically of a rebirth - hence the across the Sea where He died for you and me. Also the word Resurrection probably just would not have fit in well with the music. You will notice the next line goes to speak of the Transfiguration. So yes, it is most definetly of the Resurrection.

As far as Unitarian theology - their theology is that they have none. They welcome everyone. The writer of this could have been more Catholic in his belief than say - you - who calls himself Protestant - to be fair.

 

[pnewton]

You are right. But people are very ignorant of history. And you are right that disagreeing with my opinion does not make people reflective. But again, most folks are not very reflective.

I think this raises a good question/debate/point. There is a balance between simplistic lyrics and complex lyrics. It is why some like simple lyrics, like God Bless America, Praise and Worship etc. Others prefer the complex hymns, like the one in question, along with most older traditional hymns. Perhaps the different styles of worship can influence how much we think of lyrics. I know that I love the old hymns, can tell you most of the lyrics of all verse and find solace in times of trouble from those words. I think this may something we are losing, for good or for bad. Others may find equal meaning in the simple phrase, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me.”

On a related note, I also noted that we had no flag inside the Church this weekend. I know that this too happens at some parishes.

 

[exnihilo]

I notice you are Protestant this may be where we are having the diconnect about the Dogma of Mary - I specifically highlighted the verses that mention Mary - it talks about crushing the Serpent with the Heel - that specifically applies to the Virgin Mary.

The song has lots of Christian imagery in it. But it seems to me quite muddled.

Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,

It is Christ here that is doing the crushing. It mentions the Hero born of woman. This much is true, but the divinity is not mentioned. And since this is a war song this is saying the South was the serpent or Satan and the North was Christ destroying evil. Those are very bold statements.

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:

Is the Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel? I’m not arguing for pacifism. But will the Gospel be transmitted by rows of guns?

As far as the resurrection - the Easter Lily as often been used as a symbol for the Resurrection which has often been used as a rebirth - you cannot take that one sentence alone but look at the entire stanza which is speaking of the Resurrection not the birth - it uses the word birth in lillies to speak metaphorically of a rebirth - hence the across the Sea where He died for you and me. Also the word Resurrection probably just would not have fit in well with the music. You will notice the next line goes to speak of the Transfiguration. So yes, it is most definetly of the Resurrection.

The lily is a tradition that has sprung up but not Biblical or even ancient. If you do a search for ‘Christ born in lilies’ you’ll not find any theological works, only references to this song.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ **was **born across the sea,

The only past birth of Christ was in a manger. This just seems like very confused theology.

 

[exnihilo]

I think this raises a good question/debate/point. There is a balance between simplistic lyrics and complex lyrics. It is why some like simple lyrics, like God Bless America, Praise and Worship etc. Others prefer the complex hymns, like the one in question, along with most older traditional hymns. Perhaps the different styles of worship can influence how much we think of lyrics. I know that I love the old hymns, can tell you most of the lyrics of all verse and find solace in times of trouble from those words. I think this may something we are losing, for good or for bad. Others may find equal meaning in the simple phrase, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me.”

I love the old hymns with the more complex theology. I think the Church should have us grow in all aspects. But of course the Church has to meet us where we are. I think it is a difficult question as to what is right in terms of complexity. I know I like the song ‘Do Lord’ and it is as simple as can be. Then again I first learned it as a child and it was for children at summer church camp. I’m sure songs for children have always existed, but it seems like they have become a primary part of worship intended for adults.

On a related note, I also noted that we had no flag inside the Church this weekend. I know that this too happens at some parishes.

I actually want to start a thread with a post asking about how common that is as I have questions about that myself. And my church does have a flag in the sanctuary which I object to.

 

[joanofarc2008]

The song has lots of Christian imagery in it. But it seems to me quite muddled.

It is Christ here that is doing the crushing. It mentions the Hero born of woman. This much is true, but the divinity is not mentioned. And since this is a war song this is saying the South was the serpent or Satan and the North was Christ destroying evil. Those are very bold statements.

Is the Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel? I’m not arguing for pacifism. But will the Gospel be transmitted by rows of guns?

The lily is a tradition that has sprung up but not Biblical or even ancient. If you do a search for ‘Christ born in lilies’ you’ll not find any theological works, only references to this song.

The only past birth of Christ was in a manger. This just seems like very confused theology.

It is a song for soldiers invoking of the Lord as they go into battle surely you have heard that there are no atheists in foxholes. You are looking at birth as simply the birth when we are born and again not at the Resurrection. You seem to have a very Fundamentalist view of reading. This very much brings to mind Romans, “If the Lord be for us, who can be against us.” So I ask - have you ever served in any of the Armed Forces on a field of combat because maybe that is what it takes to understand the meaning of this song.

 

[benedictgal]

It is a song for soldiers invoking of the Lord as they go into battle surely you have heard that there are no atheists in foxholes. You are looking at birth as simply the birth when we are born and again not at the Resurrection. You seem to have a very Fundamentalist view of reading. This very much brings to mind Romans, “If the Lord be for us, who can be against us.” So I ask - have you ever served in any of the Armed Forces on a field of combat because maybe that is what it takes to understand the meaning of this song.

One of the priests who does not like this song is the son and grandson of veterans. Thus, we can’t assume that because one is a veteran or related to a veteran (I am the granddaughter of a World War II veteran) that the song is okay.

 

[PacoG]

Me either. I reserve that for San Jac Day, except when if falls during Holy Week.

Do you mean the Day of the Battle of San Jacinto which is April 21 or the day for the optional memorial of San Jacinto (the actual saint, St. Hyacinth) which is August 15 (which means it never gets celebrated because of its conflict with the Solemnity of the Assumption)?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Yes we had a Patriotic song for the recessional and do every year. Since the Mass is technically ended with the dismmissl from the Priest this is not during the Mass. Also if the Song is “God Bless America” or " The Battle Him of the Republic" or some such song they do focus on god and asking for his blessing upon us and our nation. Why would that be a problem? That is one of the Major problems in this country today is people try the keep the Counrty and God apart from one another.

 

[joanofarc2008]

One of the priests who does not like this song is the son and grandson of veterans. Thus, we can’t assume that because one is a veteran or related to a veteran (I am the granddaughter of a World War II veteran) that the song is okay.

I apologize - I was not meaning to make that general overall assumption. I was making that statement based on the posters interpretations of the lyrics - nothing more.

 

[exnihilo]

It is a song for soldiers invoking of the Lord as they go into battle surely you have heard that there are no atheists in foxholes.

Everyone invokes God. The Germans had ‘Gott mit uns’ on their belt buckles in WWII. The conversions in foxholes are probably not the ideal method of spreading the word.

You are looking at birth as simply the birth when we are born and again not at the Resurrection. You seem to have a very Fundamentalist view of reading.

I dont know that I’ve ever been called Fundamentalist before! I think it is pretty important to keep to the truth of how Christ was born. He was a King, but born in a manger. He was not born into a palace. He was God incarnate but born in a lowly manger. The key words in this phrase of the song are ‘born’ and ‘was’. If rebirth was meant then it should have been made more clear by using reborn. If it is not bad theology it is at least very sloppy writing.

This very much brings to mind Romans, “If the Lord be for us, who can be against us.” So I ask - have you ever served in any of the Armed Forces on a field of combat because maybe that is what it takes to understand the meaning of this song.

Indeed, if the Lord is with you then who can be against you. I think folks ought to spend more time thinking about whether the Lord would want to be with them rather than declaring it to be true. I’d not want to presume the Lord is on my side. I’d much rather pray that He is because I’ve conformed myself to His will.

I’m not sure why it would matter what my experience is. If it takes combat then it hardly makes sense to sing this song since the vast majority of people in a church have not seen combat.

 

[Redratfish]

I was always taught that the closing prayer ended the Mass, and when the priest said “the Mass is ended, go in peace to… ect” that the final song is not always needed, and not part of the Mass (the Mass is ended). I can understand people being mad about patriotic songs IN Mass, but once the Mass is over I don’t see a problem with it. Especially since most songs envoke God

 

[exnihilo]

So I ask - have you ever served in any of the Armed Forces on a field of combat because maybe that is what it takes to understand the meaning of this song.

One more point about this. The person who wrote it was a woman who never saw combat. So it does not really make sense to say you need to have seen combat to understand the song but not write it.

 

[joanofarc2008]

There is a big difference between being called a Fundamentalist and being told you have a Fundamentalist interpretation of things. There are about 15 different ways of interpreting Scripture. Fundamentalism is one of them. I can see since you are going to pull word for word and not look at the big picture then there is no need of continuing further conversation with you.