Patriotic Songs at Mass

[Sarabande]

I think it depends on the patriotic song and the context in which it is being sung. Also, was it originally written as a hymn or was it a song which kind of made it into hymnals somehow? FrDavid makes a point with “God Bless America”. Do most who sing it, actually truly mean the words? I will be honest, whenever I hear the song, I personally don’t think about God. I look at it as just a patriotic song and I always think about Kate Smith and her voice singing it. I know she was an icon during her time, but her voice kind of made the song into a characterature of sorts - almost like hearing a cartoon. The voice overpowered the song and I cannot think of it being reverent enough for mass because of that. Perhaps other people feel differently about.

“America the Beautiful”, the text is asking God to “shed His grace” on the country. But is it a hymn and is it really a prayer? I don’t know. I think it is a nice song, but I’m not sure if it is appropriate during mass. Maybe for a recessional?

When I was a kid, they used to sing “Battle Hymn Republic” every Sunday close to 4th of July and Memorial Day weekend. I liked it then because it was bouncy and fun to sing and it reminded me of the Civil War which I was very much interested in reading about at the time. While all my friends were taking out “Babysitters Club” and “Sweet Valley Twins” I was taking out books about the assassination of President Lincoln and the conflicts during the war itself and that’s how I came to associate the “Battle Hymn Republic” with history rather than with church, per say. Did I think anything about God regarding the song? Honestly… no, I didn’t, even though it has a lot of text about God. Although I was a little wannabe nun, had my own prayer corner, and was a very prayerful girl who took mass seriously, that song immediately had me thinking about either marching with the Union or Confederate soldiers or being one of the girls or ladies in her hoop skirted gowns worrying away for her Pa or her love.

One patriotic hymn I absolutely love, is Parry’s “Jerusalem”. It’s a patriotic hymn for Great Britain. I love singing it, I love hearing people, especially those from Great Britain, sing it with such gusto and the words and music always make me tear up. Of course, since I’m American and live in America, we have never sung it at mass, although I see it all the time in the Anglican hymnals here in the States.

 

[FK04US]

I prefer not to mix the liturgy with secular patriotism. Our Church us a Universal Church, not a local one. If we sing God Bless America, then people in Spanish Mass could sing Mexico Lindo or Que Viva Espana … the same for any other Mass. So nop, we are TH ecatholic Church, not The American Catholic Church. We can always sing these after Mass with doughnuts iw we want.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I prefer not to mix the liturgy with secular patriotism. Our Church us a Universal Church, not a local one. If we sing God Bless America, then people in Spanish Mass could sing Mexico Lindo or Que Viva Espana … the same for any other Mass. So nop, we are TH ecatholic Church, not The American Catholic Church. We can always sing these after Mass with doughnuts iw we want.

Right there with ya! I feel the exact same way too.

 

[BSHoop96]

This is where I disagree and will side with St. Augustine. Singing is prayer, at least the type of songs used for for Mass.

I love them. And going along with your statement…boy, does our country need to be prayed for.

 

[BSHoop96]

I prefer not to mix the liturgy with secular patriotism. Our Church us a Universal Church, not a local one. If we sing God Bless America, then people in Spanish Mass could sing Mexico Lindo or Que Viva Espana … the same for any other Mass. So nop, we are TH ecatholic Church, not The American Catholic Church. We can always sing these after Mass with doughnuts iw we want.

If the Spanish Mass is in this country, there would be no reason for them to be singing the Mexican patriotric songs.

 

[FK04US]

If the Spanish Mass is in this country, there would be no reason for them to be singing the Mexican patriotric songs.

I disagree. People do not stop loving their countries just because they move. And remember, the Catholic Church is not a USA institution, actually it is stronger in Latin America. And believe me, for immigrants the church is like home, so if Americans can sing patriotic songs, they would do too. But that is not the issue, for me, we go to Mass to worship God, not our country(ies).

 

[pnewton]

And remember, the Catholic Church is not a USA institution, actually it is stronger in Latin America.

There is nothing to remember. I am quite sure everyone here know the Catholic Church is not an American institution.

We also know the purpose of Mass. None of this is at issue. We also do not worship our ancestors, yet we pray for the souls that have gone before us in death.

 

[BSHoop96]

I disagree. People do not stop loving their countries just because they move. And remember, the Catholic Church is not a USA institution, actually it is stronger in Latin America. And believe me, for immigrants the church is like home, so if Americans can sing patriotic songs, they would do too. But that is not the issue, for me, we go to Mass to worship God, not our country(ies).

I’m not trying to start an immigration debate but I would never go to Church in Mexico and sing the Star-Spangled banner during OR after their Mass. It would be rude.

You say the Church is stronger in Latin America and that may well be true but there was a recent news report stating that more Hispanics believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe than Jesus Christ! Something wrong there! Anyway, I will stop now as I am derailing the thread.

 

[dnomyaR]

This depends on the song and the circumstances. There should not be an issue playing a worship song which has a patriotic theme but it is inappropriate to play something like “I’m proud to be an American” which has nothing to do with religion in Mass.

Amazing Grace or God bless America, in my opinion should be good.

 

[Sarabande]

Amazing Grace or God bless America, in my opinion should be good.

A bit of interesting trivia…“Amazing Grace” is actually an English hymn written by John Newton. I think everyone knows the origins of why it was written, so I won’t go into it here. It wasn’t really a patriotic hymn originally. There’s a great movie called “Amazing Grace” which tells the story of William Wilburforce, whose mentor was Newton and encouraged him on a life of faith and humanitarian efforts - mainly helping to stop slavery in Great Britain. The hymn was used throughout the movie. It was very interesting to hear it sung how it probably would have been heard and sung during the 18th century. Definitely not like it is heard today. It is also an interesting 18th/early 19th c political movie in a way.

The hymn later became a symbol for those who fought for human rights and as everyone knows a popular hymn during the Civil War on both sides. It’s probably why some people do associate it as a political hymn. In my area, a lot of people associate it as a funeral hymn.

 

[Chatter163]

I prefer such hymns to be used sparingly as recessionals on a handful of occasions. I am also a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus, where honoring one’s Church AND one’s country are entirely compatible with the Catholic faith.

 

[jrabs]

I love them. And going along with your statement…boy, does our country need to be prayed for.

I agree as a recessional prayer/song - we really need prayer for the survival and success of our country. God Bless America!!!

 

[servantofall]

Let me give you a different take from some one who spent 22 years in the service of the US. Whenever I sing a patriotic song at mass, I think of how blessed I am to be able to attend mass in a church and not in the woods or desert with a weapon on my back where the chaplain uses the hood of a vehicle or a footlocker for an alter. I think about those who gave their lives and who endured hardships that noone can understand unless the have been there. And above all I feel really blessed that I have endured these things so that my children won’t and that all of you are free to have this discussion about singing patrioitic music at mass on a day when we pause to remember those who gave their lives so that we can stay free. So please do small favor for me, wether you agreed or disagree, or detest having patriotic songs during mass, when you hear one being sung , say a little prayer for the men and women deployed throught the world who may not have the time of availablity of a priest to celebrate the Eucharist, and thakn God that you are not in their shoes.

 

[FAB]

The time appropriate to pray for one’s county would be the prayers of the faithful. The music of the mass should refelct the message of the day that comes from the readings. This Sunday we celebrate the Acsention. I can’t see how it’s appropriate to have any patriotic song this Sunday.
If a parish wants to reconize those who served thier country, is would be much more appropriate to have a celebration outside of the Sunday Liturgy.

Peace,
FAB

 

[KingTheoden]

Applying some circular logic here…Mass is Mass.

A national song after the Mass has ended might not technically violate the ruberics. But, I think that the spirit of the Sabbath is not honored by mixing the secular with it.

It is a tricky question; *after *Dismissal, it could work. Certainly for me, I would find it inappropriate. If the US government were especially devoted to Catholic Christian principles, there would be a greater argument for it.

Patriotic songs I know of praise the nation in general; there might be a reference to God, but most are quite secular.

I’m really touchy about liturgical concerns; one liberal parish two minutes from me brought in ‘Wade in the Waters’ as a Eurcharistic song…whatever someone tries to claim, it is a very secular song and has NO place during the exact moment honoring Christ’s sacrifice. Clapping and swooning were next (no kneelers…). Did not seem very solemn to me and really confused me about what the Eucharist was.

Thankfully, I am only 20 mintues from a more traditional parish and made that my home.

So in this same vein, I would say to keep intentions for the military in the prayer intentions.

 

[pnewton]

The time appropriate to pray for one’s county would be the prayers of the faithful. The music of the mass should refelct the message of the day that comes from the readings. This Sunday we celebrate the Acsention. I can’t see how it’s appropriate to have any patriotic song this Sunday.

I don’t think anyone is wanting to sing a patriotic song this Sunday. Surely it would not be appropriate for a Holy Day. I may be wrong, but I thought that this issue might be because the Fourth of July falls on a Saturday this year. I for one will be including some music that is “patriotic” in that it involves prayer for this country.

 

[Sarabande]

I just had to place this link of my favorite patriotic hymn that I mentioned in my previous post, “Jerusalem”. In this link, it was performed during the last night of the Proms in England, using the orchestration of Elgar. (Check out the flag behind the conductor. I’m pretty sure it’s the Vatican flag.) If anyone ever has a chance to go to the Proms at Royal Albert Hall in London, go. There were some of the most wonderful concerts I ever attended.

youtube.com/watch?v=iI13MUf7XVY&feature=related

You can see the flag better from the 2006 Proms.

youtube.com/watch?v=UQ0oCmDXrVk&feature=related

Here is the hymn with an organ, as you would more likely hear at church.

youtube.com/watch?v=XfqRh0D72f8&feature=related

The words and music just make me tear up. Whenever I read the text, it just makes me feel as if I have this spiritual responsibility to “bring Jerusalem” to the “satanic mills” of my own land and wipe them away. It gets me all riled up. I’m balling my eyes out as I’m typing this and listening to it. It even makes my husband all teary-eyed. hahaha!

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England’s mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England’s pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold:
    Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds, unfold!
    Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
    Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
    In England's green and pleasant land.

 

[Appleby]

One patriotic hymn I absolutely love, is Parry’s “Jerusalem”. It’s a patriotic hymn for Great Britain. I love singing it, I love hearing people, especially those from Great Britain, sing it with such gusto and the words and music always make me tear up. Of course, since I’m American and live in America, we have never sung it at mass, although I see it all the time in the Anglican hymnals here in the States.

Remember that the Queen (God bless her) is the head of the Church in Great Britain. That is why the Episcopal Church (in America) sings Parry. Besides the fact, of course, that he writes beautiful hymns.

Having lived in Canada for 11 years and realized that patriotism in this country is generally viewed with the same contempt that our (American) freedoms in general are offered, I would be very surprised if anybody here wanted to sing patriotic music in Canada, anywhere at all.

As for the Battle Hymn of the Republic, I have sung this hymn in every setting you can imagine, including on Memorial Day at a Watchfire, a tradition begun by Vietnam Vets as both an honourable way to dispose properly of worn-out American flags, and to honour the tradition of the Watchfire which was set to call the soldiers home. In this case, to honour those who have died since the past year. Family and friends write the names and messages on boards surrounding the Watchfire and then it is doused with jet fuel and set alight with flares and burns until it is consumed.

If you actually read the words to the Battle Hymn, *I have seen Him in the watchfires of a hundred circling camps; they have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps. I can read His righteous sentence in the dim and flaring lamps; our God is marching on! * is a beautiful sentiment in an evening soldiers camp and an electrifying vision of battlefield worship. Of course if your own opinion is that hymns should be all about flowers, kittens, babies (ALL babies, ALL the time) and peace, the very notion of battlefields would be repugnant to you. It might be helpful to the flowers-kittens-babies crowd to think sometimes of the soldiers on the battlefield standing between your babies and the evil one, in terms other than Eeew! and a turning of your backs.

And do you know any of the words of America the Beautiful? Oh beautiful for patriot dreams that see beyond the years; thine alabaster cities gleam/undimmed by human tears. America, America, God mend thine every flaw! Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law! If thats not a prayer, I have never heard one.

Maybe instead of sneering at patriotic songs and kicking them outside, you might try meditating on them as reflections of the real concerns of real people.

And remembering, as Mark Twain said, that Jesus was not crucified on an altar between two candlesticks, but on a hill between two thieves.

 

[Shiphrae]

Patriotic songs do not belong in the Mass. Isn’t the whole idea of hymns in the Mass, to praise and honour God? How is songs to a country praising and honouring God?

I think that singing songs to a country is reducing the sacrifice of the Mass to earthly and material things. God is so much greater than is a piece of the earth.

At a Mass prayers are leading to the Consecration - the great miracle when the bread and wine will change into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, how is a patriotic song any preparation for this great event? After we have witnessed such a huge miracle, we then sing a song of praise to a piece of land? COME ON!!!

I think that patriotic songs in a Mass borders on sacrilege. They are an insult to God!

We should remember the 1st commandment - I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. I have attended Mass at some churches that appear to be breaking the above commandment. The focus of the Mass should always be God - not a country.

Peace of Christ be with you all,
Shiphrae

 

[Sarabande]

Remember that the Queen (God bless her) is the head of the Church in Great Britain. That is why the Episcopal Church (in America) sings Parry. Besides the fact, of course, that he writes beautiful hymns. .

Of course I know that. I studied in London and am probably one of the biggest Anglophiles this side of the pond and am very much into reading British history. I totally understand why the Episcopal/Anglican church sings it here. Parry’s melody is actually in a couple of the Catholic hymnals, but the text I’ve read in the Catholic hymnal is so darn saccharine and corny, it ruins the hymn.

If you actually read the words to the Battle Hymn, *I have seen Him in the watchfires of a hundred circling camps; they have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps. I can read His righteous sentence in the dim and flaring lamps; our God is marching on! * is a beautiful sentiment in an evening soldiers camp and an electrifying vision of battlefield worship. Of course if your own opinion is that hymns should be all about flowers, kittens, babies (ALL babies, ALL the time) and peace, the very notion of battlefields would be repugnant to you. It might be helpful to the flowers-kittens-babies crowd to think sometimes of the soldiers on the battlefield standing between your babies and the evil one, in terms other than Eeew! and a turning of your backs. .

Where and when did I say that I thought hymns should be about flowers, kittens and babies? That’s a big eeew for me and a tad insulting that you’d think I and others wouldn’t know enough about liturgy that baby and kitten hymns are not appropriate for mass. Saccharine and sweetness has always been a big turnoff to me. I can’t even stand sweet singing. Angelic singing, yes, but not saccharine singing. It’s too superficial for me, and I think most Catholics and most people would also think that sugary sweet hymns and singing and playing is not great nor appropriate. Most people want meat and substance about God and the sacrifice of the Mass.

I like the Battle Hymn Republic, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for mass and because it reminds me more of military history rather than of God. I’m not repugnant of battlefields at all. I’m very much interested in military history especially during the 18th and 19th centuries. I get really choked up and sometimes full-blown blubbering when I study and read about it. In fact, I’m a Revolutionary War Reenactor and we reenact people getting blown up, hurt, shot up, living history in the camps (since I’m a camp follower and my husband is a British/American soldier) etc. all the time. We have to know a lot about the history. It’s to show people what our forefathers gave up for us and to try to be as close to what life was like at the time for both men and women. So, I have a lot of awe and respect for my forefathers and all men and women who died for their respective countries. So, I have no idea where you got the above in your head about myself.

And do you know any of the words of America the Beautiful? If thats not a prayer, I have never heard one…

Uh… yes, I know it by heart, but I personally don’t think it should be done during the context of the liturgy. It’s not really a prayer to me, but it’s fine if you think it is. Perhaps during the recessional. I just personally believe after a lot of thought and study as well as guidance from my musical and spiritual mentors, that sacred music which fits in within the liturgy should be chosen over music with just religious text. Some of these patriotic songs just have religious text to them and are wonderful in their own ways outside of mass, but they were not necessarily written for liturgy.

Maybe instead of sneering at patriotic songs and kicking them outside, you might try meditating on them as reflections of the real concerns of real people.

Gosh, you are reading way too much into what I wrote. I wasn’t sneering at the patriotic songs at all. That’s a really strong word. I have nothing against them alone and actually like many of them having performed them many times as a professional musician, but I don’t think most are appropriate for within the liturgy. I’m sorry if that offends you, but that’s my belief in the subject.