patriotism in Church

[twopekinguys]

In all honesty, I do not often think about the Vatican Flag nor have I ever heard Inno e Marcia PontificaleI performed in a Catholic Church. Now that you mention it though, I’m sure the flag would look splendid in the pastor’s private office.

Music can, in and of itself, be a prayer of thanksgiving. What is considered an appropriate encore for the Hank Williams Jr. Independence Day Extravaganza may be freakishly out of place in a Catholic recessional. We can have both, in their proper venue.

Maggie

Where else would be the perfect venue other than in a Catholic Church, on our Nations Birthday? The song is giving thanks to God for our country, which ultimately is giving thanks for being able to worship the way we do, and the fact that we can openly worship at all.

By the way, I always make sure I am wearing Red, White and Blue, on occasions such as Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and 4th of July. By your reasoning of no patriotic hymns, no flags, etc. Should I not wear that type of clothing to Mass?

 

[DeepeningFaith]

Back to the issue on flags in Churches. What is the rule on them? I remember seeing something somewhere a while ago, but haven’t found it again. It was either from the USCCB or the CDWDS on placement of flags. Anyone know what I’m talking about and/or where to find the document?

 

[momor]

My late grandfather and my late stepgrandfather, as well as several living uncles, were veterans. I find your insinuation rather insulting.

The fact remains that the main focus of these songs is about instilling national pride. God is not the main focus here; in fact, as I see it, He is an after-thought.

Songs used in Church should be sacred in nature and not secular.

I insinuated nothing in my post and I am surprised at your reaction. I put God in His proper place as the protector of our country and all those who protect her here on earth.

I happen to disagree with your interpretation of America the Beautiful and what it stands for. For me it is all about asking and acknowledging God’s grace and protection of our country. That you choose to see God as an afterthought in it is merely your choice.

 

[benedictgal]

I insinuated nothing in my post and I am surprised at your reaction. I put God in His proper place as the protector of our country and all those who protect her here on earth.

I happen to disagree with your interpretation of America the Beautiful and what it stands for. For me it is all about asking and acknowledging God’s grace and protection of our country. That you choose to see God as an afterthought in it is merely your choice.

However, it’s still a secular song because the focus is on patriotism and not on the sacred.

I am from Texas. I am proud of my state and I love her dearly, but, I would not want to hear this song towards the end of Mass, even though God is mentioned in the chorus:

“Texas, Our Texas”

Texas, Our Texas! all hail the mighty State!
Texas, Our Texas! so wonderful so great!
Boldest and grandest, withstanding ev’ry test
O Empire wide and glorious, you stand supremely blest.
(chorus)

Texas, O Texas! your freeborn single star,
Sends out its radiance to nations near and far,
Emblem of Freedom! it set our hearts aglow,
With thoughts of San Jacinto and glorious Alamo.
(chorus)

Texas, dear Texas! from tyrant grip now free,
Shines forth in splendor, your star of destiny!
Mother of heroes, we come your children true,
Proclaiming our allegiance, our faith, our love for you.

Chorus

God bless you Texas! And keep you brave and strong,
That you may grow in power and worth, throughout the ages long.
God bless you Texas! And keep you brave and strong,
That you may grow in power and worth, throughout the ages long

It’s a beautiful song, but, like America the Beautiful, it’s not fitting for the Mass. We need to realize that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not about focusing on national pride. As someone in these threads noted, St. Paul says that our citizenship is in heaven, not on this earth.

A priest friend of mine did not sing along to America the Beautiful when my parish chose it as the recessional. And, he is about as All-American as you can get. But, as he noted in the homily, these kinds of songs do not belong within the context of the Mass.

 

[CoffeeHound]

I am from Texas. I am proud of my state and I love her dearly, but, I would not want to hear this song towards the end of Mass, even though God is mentioned in the chorus:

That’s a logical fallacy called cherry picking. You can’t point to one inappropriate song then generalize that all songs are necessarily inappropriate because if it. For example, you can’t point to a pedophile priest then claim that all priests are pedophiles (despite the fact that many that are anti-Catholic do exactly that).

That’s the problem with this entire thread: no one wants to debate the point. People have an opinion and they attempt to defend it anyway possible and are flailing aimlessly like a 3 year old just out of reach of the cookie jar.

Fallacy of composition:
-Himno Nacional Mexicano, Thanh Niên Hành Khúc, Lupang Hinirang, and O Canada…

Irrelevant thesis:

• Take two seconds to think about what America has exported across the world in recent decades and it should be clear that some of the bad is really bad.

Circular arguments:

• Praying for the leaders of our country are prayed for during the General Intercessions
• If it’s OK for the G.I., wouldn’t it also be appropriate for after Mass?
• Because it’s in the G.I.

Judgmental language:

• Patriotic music is profane

 

[benedictgal]

That’s a logical fallacy called cherry picking. You can’t point to one inappropriate song then generalize that all songs are necessarily inappropriate because if it. For example, you can’t point to a pedophile priest then claim that all priests are pedophiles (despite the fact that many that are anti-Catholic do exactly that).

That’s the problem with this entire thread: no one wants to debate the point. People have an opinion and they attempt to defend it anyway possible and are flailing aimlessly like a 3 year old just out of reach of the cookie jar.

Fallacy of composition:
-Himno Nacional Mexicano, Thanh Niên Hành Khúc, Lupang Hinirang, and O Canada…

Irrelevant thesis:

• Take two seconds to think about what America has exported across the world in recent decades and it should be clear that some of the bad is really bad.

Circular arguments:

• Praying for the leaders of our country are prayed for during the General Intercessions
• If it’s OK for the G.I., wouldn’t it also be appropriate for after Mass?
• Because it’s in the G.I.

Judgmental language:

• Patriotic music is profane

But, even you are engaging in this, Coffeehound. You are looking at this through some very biased eyes, as I see it. However, we need to move past our pride as Americans and focus on what should and should not be happening during the Mass.

The General Interecessions are where we intercede for the Church, the country and whatever else. This is the appropriate venue to make a petition for the country.

 

[momor]

That’s a logical fallacy called cherry picking. You can’t point to one inappropriate song then generalize that all songs are necessarily inappropriate because if it. For example, you can’t point to a pedophile priest then claim that all priests are pedophiles (despite the fact that many that are anti-Catholic do exactly that).

That’s the problem with this entire thread: no one wants to debate the point. People have an opinion and they attempt to defend it anyway possible and are flailing aimlessly like a 3 year old just out of reach of the cookie jar.

Fallacy of composition:
-Himno Nacional Mexicano, Thanh Niên Hành Khúc, Lupang Hinirang, and O Canada…

Irrelevant thesis:

• Take two seconds to think about what America has exported across the world in recent decades and it should be clear that some of the bad is really bad.

Circular arguments:

• Praying for the leaders of our country are prayed for during the General Intercessions
• If it’s OK for the G.I., wouldn’t it also be appropriate for after Mass?
• Because it’s in the G.I.

Judgmental language:

• Patriotic music is profane

When being right becomes the point of the debate it tends to occasion all kinds of illogical and irrelevant statements.

 

[Contarini]

That’s a logical fallacy called cherry picking. You can’t point to one inappropriate song then generalize that all songs are necessarily inappropriate because if it. For example, you can’t point to a pedophile priest then claim that all priests are pedophiles (despite the fact that many that are anti-Catholic do exactly that).

That’s the problem with this entire thread: no one wants to debate the point.

Well, here’s the point:

1. It’s wrong to offer dulia to an object not explicitly Christian in the context of Christian worship.
2. The United States is a secular nation.
3. Any action constituting dulia toward the United States and its national symbols is inappropriate in the context of Christian worship.

Such actions may or may not be idolatrous. If they are, then they shouldn’t be engaged in by Christians at all.

There have been several threads about statues of Buddha. On one of those threads, I asked for arguments showing that honoring symbols of the United States was less idolatrous than paying homage to an image of Buddha. I repeat that challenge here.

Praying for the nation is of course fine. But given the command to pray for our enemies, it would be salutary to pray for, say, Iran at the same time. If you feel uncomfortable praying for Iran alongside your own nation, then something other than Christian intercession is going on–something more like dulia, if it is not in fact latria.

Edwin

 

[CoffeeHound]

But, even you are engaging in this, Coffeehound. You are looking at this through some very biased eyes, as I see it. However, we need to move past our pride as Americans and focus on what should and should not be happening during the Mass.

The General Interecessions are where we intercede for the Church, the country and whatever else. This is the appropriate venue to make a petition for the country.

As stated and has been agreed to (and is correct): the Mass is over at the time of the recessional. What should and shouldn’t happen at the time of the recessional is not the same as what should and shouldn’t happen during the Mass.

Now, you could make the argument as some have tried that “We just received the Lord. We should still be respectful.” The problem there is (1) the lack of bounding on “just” (is listen to rock music in my car after Mass inappropriate? How about going to a bar 6 hours later?) and (2) a presumption that all patriotic songs are not respectful or give undue worship to a country and not God, which is true for some songs but not all.

Well, here’s the point:

1. It’s wrong to offer dulia to an object not explicitly Christian in the context of Christian worship.

Agreed.

1. The United States is a secular nation.

Agreed.

1. Any action constituting dulia toward the United States and its national symbols is inappropriate in the context of Christian worship.

Agreed. But that’s not what’s happening here.

1. It is right to respectfully pray to God to after Mass in the church structure and this prayer may or may not take the form of song.
2. The United States is a country with leaders that have sufficient power that they can impact billions of lives and it is proper to pray to God to guide the United States
3. Some songs which were composed not by the Catholic Church are respectful and appropriate for use in a church building outside of Mass for the purpose of #2.

Such actions may or may not be idolatrous. If they are, then they shouldn’t be engaged in by Christians at all.

There have been several threads about statues of Buddha. On one of those threads, I asked for arguments showing that honoring symbols of the United States was less idolatrous than paying homage to an image of Buddha. I repeat that challenge here.

A love country is not the same as idolatry. I don’t think you’ll find anyone that believes the United States is perfect and can do no wrong. Just turn on the news and you’ll find “patriots” protesting something or another.

Loving your country doesn’t mean that you necessarily mean that you love God less. It’s like loving a spouse, or loving children. You can love and support them without idolizing them or worshiping them. Honoring the US flag is the same as honoring the photo of a family member.

But what do I know? Here’s Fr. Serpa’s response on this very website:

Being a patriot is not in opposition to being a Christian. We don’t worship the country we love anymore than we worship the people we love. Because God comes first it doesn’t follow that no one or nothing can came second and third. Our Lord said to “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s” (Luke 20:25).

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/idolatry

Praying for the nation is of course fine. But given the command to pray for our enemies, it would be salutary to pray for, say, Iran at the same time.

Very few people will argue against the need to pray for the leaders of Iran to act in the best interests of their people and the people of the world.

 

[centurionguard]

I’m all for Patriotism, but do national flags really belong in the Catholic Church?
Perhaps they do; but I don’t think such flags should have a station on the Sanctuary.
The honor of a Catholic Sanctuary belongs to God (Jesus Christ) exclusively.
Give to God what belongs to God, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.

In my parish the only time I see the national flag on the sanctuary is Remembrance/Veterans/Armistice Day November 11th

If a national flag is is placed in a standard on the sanctuary, the Vatican flag must also flank it giving the Vatican flag the highest honor.

 

[nominal_effect]

As I posted earlier, for the entrance hymn this past Sunday, we sang, “Eternal Father, Strong to save” and for the recessional we sang “America the Beautiful”. Both were in our Music Issue and our pastor approved of both. And that seems to fall within the guidelines that I posted earlier. I don’t see any problem with that. I believe you may have misunderstood my post.

I think you’re right. I apologize. Thought you were joining in on the bash. American has a long way to be truly a godly nation. But what we do have we must fight for or else lose it, joining in with the European nations or secularism on a grand scale by comparison.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I was always told: “Beware of soldiers singing hymns.”

 

[twopekinguys]

Back to the issue on flags in Churches. What is the rule on them? I remember seeing something somewhere a while ago, but haven’t found it again. It was either from the USCCB or the CDWDS on placement of flags. Anyone know what I’m talking about and/or where to find the document?

I found this at usccb.org

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/flag.shtml

 

[momor]

I found this at usccb.org

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/flag.shtml

Thanks for going to the trouble to find and post this. It’s not at all uncommon for people on CAF to throw absolutes around that are not absolutes at all, merely opinions, some of which are very uninformed at that.

 

[CoffeeHound]

If a national flag is is placed in a standard on the sanctuary, the Vatican flag must also flank it giving the Vatican flag the highest honor.

The problem is that it could be seen as a sign of disrespect, since the United States is not legally subservient to the State of the Vatican City. It also gets confusing because the State of the Vatican City is not the same as the Holy See, even though the pope is the head of state of one and the bishop of the other. The correct protocol would be to fly the flags at equal height, in alphabetical order. However, this gives the impression that the congregation has split loyalty (which is not the case since Catholics are subservient to the Holy See and not the State of the Vatican City[1]).

Personally, I think these issues are best avoided by not having national flags in the sanctuary. If you want to fly a flag for the Church, maybe the coat of arms of the current pope or bishop of that diocese would be more appropriate.

[1] When you do something that the pope requests, you do it because he’s the bishop of the Holy See, not because he is the head of state of the Vatican. If the pope named a lay-person lawyer to be the head of Vatican City for administration purposes, you would not obey a request from that lawyer just because he was the president of the Vatican City.

 

[tomarin]

A love country is not the same as idolatry.

True. But a number of posters have pointed out they consider themselves patriotic but feel uncomfortable with patriotic displays during mass, so clearly they don’t feel patriotism is inherently wrong. Idolatry is placing something that is not God above God. By including patriotic displays and national symbols in church they feel, I think, you’re at least equating the love and respect we owe to our country with the worship that we owe to God alone.

I myself am not sure if singing “God Bless America” during the recessional crosses that line but I agree that it is getting close and I understand their qualms. A few years ago I attended mass at a small rural church near my parents’ house. I was a bit disconcerted by a large “support our troops” banner that had been hung inside the church and above the entrance, not because I have anything against our soldiers and sailors but because, given the context, it appeared to bless the various wars going on at that time. Now these wars may be just and necessary but what if the person making the prudential judgement about it was wrong? Does a war become just simply because we’re in it? What if we’re in it but not for the right reasons? I felt that was an example of a kind of knee-jerk patriotism making an unwelcome intrusion into church.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for going to the trouble to find and post this. It’s not at all uncommon for people on CAF to throw absolutes around that are not absolutes at all, merely opinions, some of which are very uninformed at that.

The post addresses the issue of the flag, not a song.

 

[momor]

True. But a number of posters have pointed out they consider themselves patriotic but feel uncomfortable with patriotic displays during mass, so clearly they don’t feel patriotism is inherently wrong. Idolatry is placing something that is not God above God. By including patriotic displays and national symbols in church they feel, I think, you’re at least equating the love and respect we owe to our country with the worship that we owe to God alone.

I myself am not sure if singing “God Bless America” during the recessional crosses that line but I agree that it is getting close and I understand their qualms. A few years ago I attended mass at a small rural church near my parents’ house. I was a bit disconcerted by a large “support our troops” banner that had been hung inside the church and above the entrance, not because I have anything against our soldiers and sailors but because, given the context, it appeared to bless the various wars going on at that time. Now these wars may be just and necessary but what if the person making the prudential judgement about it was wrong? Does a war become just simply because we’re in it? What if we’re in it but not for the right reasons? I felt that was an example of a kind of knee-jerk patriotism making an unwelcome intrusion into church.

Why the assumption that support our troops = God bless the war?
To me, putting up a poster like this in church means asking God to keep our troops safe while in harms way. You don’t have to agree with the war to want our troops to be safe.

 

[benedictgal]

Why the assumption that support our troops = God bless the war?
To me, putting up a poster like this in church means asking God to keep our troops safe while in harms way. You don’t have to agree with the war to want our troops to be safe.

I don’t think that he was suggesting that we be against the war, only that the inside of a Catholic church may not be the proper venue for a sign. There is certainly nothing wrong in praying for our troops. I have a cousin in Iraq right now. However, we need to keep the focus on God.

Unfortunately, patriotism can sometimes turn into idolatry if we let things run too far. That is why I believe that my example of “Texas our Texas” is a good one. I love Texas very much. But, inasmuch as I am a very proud Texan, I cannot let my pride in my state get in the way of my worship at Mass. I can certainly pray for Texas; in fact, I had a Mass said for Texas on March 2nd, our Independence Day, but, that is as far as I will go.

 

[momor]

The post addresses the issue of the flag, not a song.

correct, and someone wrote earlier to the effect that there is not supposed to be anything in the sanctuary that is not directed toward God and to my memory made it sound like an absolute statement.