patriotism in Church

[tomarin]

Why the assumption that support our troops = God bless the war?

I think because I equate church, especially a Catholic church, with holiness and with a desire to avoid anything that would offend God.

To me, putting up a poster like this in church means asking God to keep our troops safe while in harms way. You don’t have to agree with the war to want our troops to be safe.

I would like to believe that’s true. And I’m sure many of the parishioners there had family members serving in the military so in a way it’s entirely appropriate to respond to their natural desire to wish God to watch over them. But I interpret “support our troops” as a political slogan that means don’t criticize the war effort, no matter how dubious the reasons given for fighting the war, because it will affect morale. And I find that attitude a perfect example of placing love of country above love of God, i.e. idolatry.

 

[centurionguard]

The problem is that it could be seen as a sign of disrespect, since the United States is not legally subservient to the State of the Vatican City. It also gets confusing because the State of the Vatican City is not the same as the Holy See, even though the pope is the head of state of one and the bishop of the other. The correct protocol would be to fly the flags at equal height, in alphabetical order. However, this gives the impression that the congregation has split loyalty (which is not the case since Catholics are subservient to the Holy See and not the State of the Vatican City[1]).

Personally, I think these issues are best avoided by not having national flags in the sanctuary. If you want to fly a flag for the Church, maybe the coat of arms of the current pope or bishop of that diocese would be more appropriate.

[1] When you do something that the pope requests, you do it because he’s the bishop of the Holy See, not because he is the head of state of the Vatican. If the pope named a lay-person lawyer to be the head of Vatican City for administration purposes, you would not obey a request from that lawyer just because he was the president of the Vatican City.

The problem is that it could be seen as a sign of disrespect, since the United States is not legally subservient to the State of the Vatican City. It also gets confusing because the State of the Vatican City is not the same as the Holy See

I believe your somewhat mistaken about the Vatican Flag which is not only the official national flag of the smallest country of the world, but is also the Official flag of the Pope in full communion with the Holy See.

Papal Flag Historical Overview: flagspot.net/flags/va_hist.html#1669
metroflags.net/vaticanflag.html

Personally, I think these issues are best avoided by not having national flags in the sanctuary.

Complete agreement with you here.

Peace
Chris

 

[momor]

Does anyone else besides me see the reverse parallel between this thread and the debate over prayer in schools.or displays of religion on public property?

 

[CoffeeHound]

Idolatry is placing something that is not God above God. By including patriotic displays and national symbols in church they feel, I think, you’re at least equating the love and respect we owe to our country with the worship that we owe to God alone.

Again, that is not always the case. Saying the pledge of allegiance after the processional would certainly be seen this way, but asking God to bless the United States after Mass shows primacy towards God, as He is the one that bestows blessings to the United States and not vice versa.

I was a bit disconcerted by a large “support our troops” banner that had been hung inside the church and above the entrance, not because I have anything against our soldiers and sailors but because, given the context, it appeared to bless the various wars going on at that time.

I also do not like banners inside the church, but I wouldn’t necessarily equate “support our troops” with justification of the war. Would you have a problem if the parish pastor performed a special blessing in the church for soldiers about to be deployed?

 

[pnewton]

By including patriotic displays and national symbols in church they feel, I think, you’re at least equating the love and respect we owe to our country with the worship that we owe to God alone. .

No we are not. The two do logically follow. If we skipped Mass and went to a political rally, then one might say that in that case, one put love of country above God.

 

[twopekinguys]

Why the assumption that support our troops = God bless the war?
To me, putting up a poster like this in church means asking God to keep our troops safe while in harms way. You don’t have to agree with the war to want our troops to be safe.

I agree.

As a veteran, my favorite saying these days is, “If you can’t stand behind our troops, why don’t you stand in front of them?”

Supporting our troops has nothing to do with supporting the politics of a war or conflict.

Our church has all of the men and women currently serving on display in the Church as a constant reminder of prayer to keep them safe.

 

[twopekinguys]

Getting back to “America the Beautiful”, being sung, I found this, and thought it fits quite perfectly. (bolding mine)

"Miss Bates (author) died on March 28, 1929, but lived long enough to see her poem become the best-loved patriotic **hymn **in America. Most people don’t know that neither Miss Bates nor Samuel Ward ever received a cent in royalties. They both felt that God had inspired this song, and that it was a gift from God to America."

lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18274

What better way to end the Mass than with a song that was a gift from God.

 

[tomarin]

No we are not. The two do logically follow. If we skipped Mass and went to a political rally, then one might say that in that case, one put love of country above God.

For the sake of the argument, can you review Contarini’s post #114 where he lays out the argument in syllogistic form and tell me where it’s illogical? I.e. which premises did he get wrong?

 

[tomarin]

Again, that is not always the case. Saying the pledge of allegiance after the processional would certainly be seen this way, but asking God to bless the United States after Mass shows primacy towards God, as He is the one that bestows blessings to the United States and not vice versa.

I think most people view the song (hear the song?) as a patriotic song, not a primarily religious one. Maybe they’re wrong to do so, but I think that’s the association.

I also do not like banners inside the church, but I wouldn’t necessarily equate “support our troops” with justification of the war. Would you have a problem if the parish pastor performed a special blessing in the church for soldiers about to be deployed?

It depends on the circumstances. Certainly soldiers need blessings whether or not their leaders are making wise decisions.

 

[pnewton]

For the sake of the argument, can you review Contarini’s post #114 where he lays out the argument in syllogistic form and tell me where it’s illogical? I.e. which premises did he get wrong?

He never showed that singing of a song with patriotic elements constitutes “dulia.” In fact, since the second item was a statement about the United State (it is secular) and the conclusion refers to an action, it is not even a syllogism.

He did offered as an unproven axiom that that it is wrong to offer dulia to an object or person not explicitly Christian.

 

[benedictgal]

Getting back to “America the Beautiful”, being sung, I found this, and thought it fits quite perfectly. (bolding mine)

"Miss Bates (author) died on March 28, 1929, but lived long enough to see her poem become the best-loved patriotic **hymn **in America. Most people don’t know that neither Miss Bates nor Samuel Ward ever received a cent in royalties. They both felt that God had inspired this song, and that it was a gift from God to America."

lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18274

What better way to end the Mass than with a song that was a gift from God.

It is still a patriotic song, not even a religious one, let alone a sacred one. Even if one could make the argument that it is a religious song, we should remember that while all sacred songs are religious, not all religious songs are sacred.

 

[pnewton]

It is still a patriotic song, not even a religious one, let alone a sacred one. Even if one could make the argument that it is a religious song, we should remember that while all sacred songs are religious, not all religious songs are sacred.

I think you are confusing sacred with non-catholics. Jewish people can have sacred songs. Protestants can have sacred songs. I assure you, that this was a hymn we sang in Church when I was growing up. I do not you can qualify it as not religious. Let me just say that I very much disagree and will use this hymn because of its religious nature until such a time that the Church says otherwise.

 

[twopekinguys]

It is still a patriotic song, not even a religious one, let alone a sacred one. Even if one could make the argument that it is a religious song, we should remember that while all sacred songs are religious, not all religious songs are sacred.

It is also a song Thanking God for our wonderful nation, which to me makes it both religious, and sacred.

I would also venture to say, that since it is in many, if not most of the hymnals currently in use, that someone, somewhere higher up in the Church hierarchy approved it for use.

Personally, I don’t believe that I know more than those that approved it for use.

 

[CoffeeHound]

It is still a patriotic song, not even a religious one, let alone a sacred one. Even if one could make the argument that it is a religious song, we should remember that while all sacred songs are religious, not all religious songs are sacred.

And not all songs sung outside the Mass need to be sacred.

 

[nominal_effect]

correct, and someone wrote earlier to the effect that there is not supposed to be anything in the sanctuary that is not directed toward God and to my memory made it sound like an absolute statement.

there is nothing wrong with presenting the colors in the place of worship. It lets you know which country you’re in for one. It’s symbolic just like many other things people wear on their person. People wear flag pins and ties. Do a bit of study on what the flag stands for before flushing it out the door. For one thing it shows that we promote a sense of community to those present. It is a sign of good will towards supporting our government leaders, reminds us to pray for those in leadership in government and soldiers, marines, seamen and airmen in harms way or even merely in training. Training is said to be more deadly than war. Separation of families, etc. all of these people need to be prayed for and we need to be reminded to remember God in our daily life even in government.

 

[tomarin]

He never showed that singing of a song with patriotic elements constitutes “dulia.” In fact, since the second item was a statement about the United State (it is secular) and the conclusion refers to an action, it is not even a syllogism.

He did offered as an unproven axiom that that it is wrong to offer dulia to an object or person not explicitly Christian.

Hmm. It seems perfectly logical to me. That unproven axiom is the first commandment, isn’t it?

I want to make it clear that I believe patriotism is a good thing, that I try to cultivate patriotic values in myself and my children, yet I also feel that there’s a real danger of loving your country so much that you displace your love of (and obedience to) God. I guess that’s where we differ? Or is it just that you don’t think the things we’re discussing here come anywhere close to dulia?

 

[benedictgal]

It is also a song Thanking God for our wonderful nation, which to me makes it both religious, and sacred.

I would also venture to say, that since it is in many, if not most of the hymnals currently in use, that someone, somewhere higher up in the Church hierarchy approved it for use.

Personally, I don’t believe that I know more than those that approved it for use.

But, it is not even a religious song. It is a secular song. It’s a song that is sometimes even sung at seventh inning stretches. Please, would you sing Holy God, We Praise Thy Name at the seventh inning stretch?

Incidentally, many of these hymnals do not even carry the approval of someone in the Church hierarchy for use. OCP is a prime example of that. Music companies do not act with the authority of the Church. Therein lies the confusion.

 

[twopekinguys]

But, it is not even a religious song. It is a secular song. It’s a song that is sometimes even sung at seventh inning stretches. Please, would you sing Holy God, We Praise Thy Name at the seventh inning stretch?

Just because something is sung outside of a Church doesn’t make it secular. Have you happened to watch the auditions for American Idol? America’s Got Talent? Street Preachers? I have heard the Alleluia Chorus sung in many venues. Does that make it secular? No, so unfortunately your argument doesn’t hold water.

Incidentally, many of these hymnals do not even carry the approval of someone in the Church hierarchy for use. OCP is a prime example of that. Music companies do not act with the authority of the Church. Therein lies the confusion.

But, as I am sure you are aware, OCP is not the only publisher of hymnals in use.

 

[zab]

But, it is not even a religious song. It is a secular song. It’s a song that is sometimes even sung at seventh inning stretches. Please, would you sing Holy God, We Praise Thy Name at the seventh inning stretch?

Incidentally, many of these hymnals do not even carry the approval of someone in the Church hierarchy for use. OCP is a prime example of that. Music companies do not act with the authority of the Church. Therein lies the confusion.

There is no question, IMO, that “America, the Beautiful” is a patriotic hymn. But the statement from Zenit Daily Dispatch ( post #96) does allow for patriotic hymns with certain stipulations and recommendation.

 

[blackrobe]

Today at my parish, we sang “America the Beautiful” at the end of Mass. As Americans, we should appreciate the fact that our government gives us the right to worship God as Christians and as Catholics.

Important distinction: Government does not and cannot “give” rights. We in the U.S.A. are fortunate that our system of government affirms and guarantees certain God-given rights. That’s the theory, at least.

AMDG
jsa