Paul Corrupted/Created Christianity

[rinnie]

But he never said in Mark 7 that the Law was to be abolished. He was enlightening them as to what it is concerning their responsibility to one another and to the world. The Jews place is not one of “right”… it is one of responsibility. They were thinking of the Law as a burden and not seeing the beauty contained therein. When you are ritualistic yet lack the passion, you become rigid and what you are doing no longer gives you purpose or meaning… you become bitter and angry and then that gets put out into the world… and what goes out into the world comes back to you.

There is nothing wrong with the traditions and the commands that God gave them that they hold to for remembrance sake… but when one ignores the needs of others to fulfill one of these traditions and rituals, they are missing the point of what those traditions and rituals were for… to keep in remembrance all that God had done for them… SO THAT it could be given to the world… .the manifestation of God’s heart to the world, that is the place of the Jewish. That is what Jesus was trying to enlighten them to… not to do away with the Laws and commands that God had given to them… those serve their purpose to.

Those traditions and commands do not have anything to do with the Gentiles though… and so, it most likely is the reason why so many can not understand that Jesus was not abolishing, but enlightening… it is why He was ADAMANT that the enlightenment being brought was for the house of Israel only and not for the Gentiles. We could not understand (though… honestly, I can… it makes sense to me) because those things were not a part of our past. Gentiles do NOT have do all those things to be righteous before God; however, if they want to take a hold of the people and their covenant with God then they do. It is simple really.

The human sacrifice and Jesus being a God have nothing to do with anything other than drawing the attention away from the point of what Jesus was bringing to his people… the enlightenment.

Not true the gentiles do have all those thing do do right by God. And Jesus was not being A God Jesus Christ IS God. I understand you last point what do you mean when you say that Jesus was drawing attention away form the point (what point ) What do you mean. Will be back got a customer.

 

[simplynoone]

You must understand that the N.T. authors were Jews. But because they were writing to Jewish readers who knew their scriptures well.

You act like because we believe in the N.T. that we somehow threw out the O.T. We know without the O.T. and the N.T. we could not see the fulfillment of scripture.

But you in part want to disreguard the N.T. totally. You cannot do that. Its impossible.

Let’s see if I can explain this. You know the story of the temple scene where Jesus comes in and sees the defiling of it by those who were making money. Do you know WHY he was angry? Because they were making money via deceit. They were telling people that had little money that they had to buy such and such to sacrifice or God would not accept it. OF COURSE, God already gave the enlightenment that it was obedience that was important to Him and not sacrifice. the Sacrifices were for them… to make them feel more connected to God… to share in something with God and that, God was not against… but what HE wanted was the obedience and that included to take care of those around them; not take advantage… that is what was happening.

Jesus was enlightening HIS people to what God saw as important and that the sacrifices were for their “feeling” connected to God… obedience is what He required. This does not abolish the sacrificing as it still made the people feel closer to God, but rather it was enlightening them so that they no longer could be taken advantage of via those sacrifices.

This is what angered Paul… that this was being exposed and the people were catching on. So what did he do? He worked to abolish that movement toward enlightenment at the expense of the Gentiles. And look… it worked… look at the Church you claim is the revealing of God to the world. I just watched a documentary last night on some Priests who are now bringing this same enlightenment to their people by admitting that the Church keeps their followers in ignorance by making them think they have to do such and such to be right with God; meanwhile they are abusing their own people via the power they hold over them. Paul realized that he was not stopping the enlightenment of his own people and so he killed two birds with one stone… defile the Laws of God given to his people whilst securing control over another people.

This is true… consider the following:
Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

When their own people were coming out of their state of ignorance, they went to the Gentiles who were ignorant and made it appear as though the Jews were trying to force these traditions and such onto them… and that God was giving them a way out… and you best be grateful and submit to what Paul says… and those above you in the church… else you risk angering God. He just transfered power elsewhere… to those who WERE STILL ignorant.

 

[rinnie]

Let’s see if I can explain this. You know the story of the temple scene where Jesus comes in and sees the defiling of it by those who were making money. Do you know WHY he was angry? Because they were making money via deceit. They were telling people that had little money that they had to buy such and such to sacrifice or God would not accept it. OF COURSE, God already gave the enlightenment that it was obedience that was important to Him and not sacrifice. the Sacrifices were for them… to make them feel more connected to God… to share in something with God and that, God was not against… but what HE wanted was the obedience and that included to take care of those around them; not take advantage… that is what was happening.

Jesus was enlightening HIS people to what God saw as important and that the sacrifices were for their “feeling” connected to God… obedience is what He required. This does not abolish the sacrificing as it still made the people feel closer to God, but rather it was enlightening them so that they no longer could be taken advantage of via those sacrifices.

This is what angered Paul… that this was being exposed and the people were catching on. So what did he do? He worked to abolish that movement toward enlightenment at the expense of the Gentiles. And look… it worked… look at the Church you claim is the revealing of God to the world. I just watched a documentary last night on some Priests who are now bringing this same enlightenment to their people by admitting that the Church keeps their followers in ignorance by making them think they have to do such and such to be right with God; meanwhile they are abusing their own people via the power they hold over them. Paul realized that he was not stopping the enlightenment of his own people and so he killed two birds with one stone… defile the Laws of God given to his people whilst securing control over another people.

This is true… consider the following:
Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

When their own people were coming out of their state of ignorance, they went to the Gentiles who were ignorant and made it appear as though the Jews were trying to force these traditions and such onto them… and that God was giving them a way out… and you best be grateful and submit to what Paul says… and those above you in the church… else you risk angering God. He just transfered power elsewhere… to those who WERE STILL ignorant.

Okay I think I see where you are comming from. But you are way out in left field here. I will be busy for awhile but will be back later. You are getting confused and I think I see where it is. You are forgetting that at first yes Paul did protest the Church, No one denys it. But you seem to forget that it is Paul who in the end was converted by Jesus Christ himself and in the end stood up for the Church. While I am gone you may want to hit acts. There is alot in there you need to read. See ya Later

 

[simplynoone]

It is you who are lacking because you cannot understand it. Do you not understand that Jewish People are converting to Christianity in Record numbers.

Yes, I understand that there are many Jewish who are lacking the knowledge and the Wisdom to know how very special they are in this world; that are tired of being ridiculed and made to feel like arrogant pricks when they are anything BUT; that are tired of being judged for something they no longer see beauty in because the work of men like Paul was a success. They are abandoning their most precious identities to try and please man. Rub a bit of salt into the gaping wounds, Rinnie. :bighanky:

That’s okay… because I hold onto God’s promise to them FOR them!

Isaiah 44:
1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
5 One shall say, I am the LORD’s; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

It must be difficult to be so good at heart and want to fit in with the rest of God’s creation yet be seen by the rest of mankind as an arrogant People who made up all the hardships just to be superior. It is no wonder so many, trying to please all those around them have given up their VERY precious identities and humbled themselves even further than they have already been forced to do.

Keep in mind this, please… while the rest of you judge them for all their misdeeds, their sins and their wrongs committed by their people, all those “sins” were never hid from your eyes. God would not allow them to do so… DO YOU KNOW WHY?? For our benefits… for our being able to relate and grow via the understanding of their humanity and relationship to God. He dealt with them personally and then Divinely inspired their hands to share with us all that they did so that we had an example (a REAL ONE… one that we can ACTUALLY relate to) to follow and so that the manifestation of the Creators gorgeous and faithful Nature could be revealed to us.

Most are more content to keep their dirty little secrets to themselves… but this People have their hearts on their sleeves; and we judge them as if we were so perfect in our lack of knowledge.

 

[simplynoone]

Do you understand what I am saying simplynoone. In Jewish expectation in the first century the Messiah would be some great miracle worker. Jesus did indeed do this, he turned water into wine, he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind. and raised the dead. He is still doing miracles ever day. Do you deny this also. How could you have proof that Jesus is indeed the Messiah without the N.T.?

My thoughts on Jesus is that he was a Rabbi who had been Divinely enlightened to the abuses that were going on around him by men such as Saul (though, Saul was not one of the abusers at that time). He was born to a humble existence and so was subjected to it as well. When one’s eyes are Divinely opened to the role they have been given in life, they see much and try to share much. This is what happened with Jesus. He knew the very important role this people had to enlighten mankind to God’s Nature and Great Beauty, yet… how could they do this when they were being kept in ignorance. God quickened Jesus in His Divine knowledge; and I can relate to this… yet, I am not a messiah… I am not God… I am just me… like Jesus was just him… a man who God saw was open to what was before him.

All that is said of him was manipulated to take the focus off of the enlightenment and used instead as a wedge between the Jewish and the rest of mankind. Consider… Paul’s teachings are NOT the teachings of Jesus… they are much different. They focus on the identity of Jesus as though he was God. God is not a man! God is not and Jesus was.

Christianity has delivered nothing but more stress and anxiety to the world. This is so overwhelmingly obvious that many are now professing NO God because they cannot make sense of anything that is Christianity. Christianity has strangled to death all that is beautiful, holy, and right in the Word of God. I am sorry… but this is the Truth.

So, I think Jesus is someone that I can relate to when I focus on the reality and not the fantastical. To be Divinely enlightened and quickened in the Word… suddenly, it becomes of the utmost importance to share that with as many as you can. Jesus was enlightening his people to their role as the Messiah (the anointed of God) in the world. Was he the messiah? Well, he was part OF the Messiah.

 

[simplynoone]

Not true the gentiles do have all those thing do do right by God. And Jesus was not being A God Jesus Christ IS God. I understand you last point what do you mean when you say that Jesus was drawing attention away form the point (what point ) What do you mean. Will be back got a customer.

No, I do not think that Jesus was trying to assume the identity of God. That corruption came by those who were hell bent on destroying the enlightenment by casting lies out those ignorant of the Word of God wherever it was they could.

Paul was drawing attention away from the enlightenment… not Jesus. My problem is not with Jesus; my problem is with the interpolations into Jesus’ teachings and with more of the NT being the teachings of Paul, which were anti enlightenment and pro ignorance.

2 Cor 10:5-6
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1 Tim 2:11-12
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Cor 7:32-35
But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

2 Thes 1:6-9
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Gal 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Cor 10:6
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1 Thes 2:14-15
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary (hostile) to all men:

It is no wonder Hitler was able to use Christianity as a catalyst for his sick agenda!

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Okay I think I see where you are comming from. But you are way out in left field here. I will be busy for awhile but will be back later. You are getting confused and I think I see where it is. You are forgetting that at first yes Paul did protest the Church, No one denys it. But you seem to forget that it is Paul who in the end was converted by Jesus Christ himself and in the end stood up for the Church. While I am gone you may want to hit acts. There is alot in there you need to read. See ya Later

He did not convert to the teachings of Jesus… he used Jesus’ image to destroy the enlightenment that was taking place due to the teachings of Jesus. I have read Acts… many many many many times trying to understand the confusion and secrecies that seemed to take place anytime Paul was around. I have brought forth quite a bit concerning Paul in acts to this thread and questioned you all on them and have not been answered even yet. My inquiries have been ignored.

 

[simplynoone]

Col 1:25-26
Whereof I(Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me(Paul) for you(his listeners), to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

In other words, Paul didn’t really contradict the Old Testament teachings because he received special information from God that God’s teachings and statements in the Tanakh about a coming Messiah were no longer valid.

However, as is so often the case, Paul’s new concocted doctrine of salvation through belief in a human sacrifice rather than through obedience to God’s eternal law was based on his own authority… I have read and re-read the prophets to try and find where it is said that a man would be a human sacrifice, buried, and resurrected for all mankind and cannot find it… it is not there.

The Tanakh exposes Paul’s deception and declares that God does not hide or keep important issues a secret from his prophets.
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And seriously… the threats are a give away as to the agenda. The Jewish did not believe in the concept of the christian hell… that was paganistic thinking. So, whilst the threats could not work on the Jewish, they could work on the Gentiles.

Heb 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

However, personally, I have never been one to lie to myself regardless of punishments for not doing so.

For the Jewish, Paul uses a different tactic. Paul was trying to lure Jews away from their established teachings about God.

Acts 13:40-41
40-Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41-Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Paul masterfully warns people not to reject his teachings because God will punish them if they do. He misquotes Habakkuk 1:5 which says (in full context)…

Hab 1:4-6
Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I(God) will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
For, lo, I(God) raise up the Chaldeans(Babylon), that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not their’s.

ahem… to those of understanding, Paul actually nailed his own deceitful work in the coffin by drawing attention to this passage!

Hab 1:5 actually states:
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously:…

Hab 1:5 modified by Paul states:
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish:…

In the original verse, God tells his prophet Habakkuk, who lives among those who ignore the law, to look forward with wonder at God’s upcoming judgment that will be imposed on the land by the foreign invading nation.

And this is a favorite method of Paul’s … to distort the Word of God and use it against those who are ignorant of it’s true meaning. It is VERY sad to me that so many will not see the Truth.

 

[rinnie]

Col 1:25-26
Whereof I(Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me(Paul) for you(his listeners), to fulfil the word of God;
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

In other words, Paul didn’t really contradict the Old Testament teachings because he received special information from God that God’s teachings and statements in the Tanakh about a coming Messiah were no longer valid.

However, as is so often the case, Paul’s new concocted doctrine of salvation through belief in a human sacrifice rather than through obedience to God’s eternal law was based on his own authority… I have read and re-read the prophets to try and find where it is said that a man would be a human sacrifice, buried, and resurrected for all mankind and cannot find it… it is not there.

The Tanakh exposes Paul’s deception and declares that God does not hide or keep important issues a secret from his prophets.
Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And seriously… the threats are a give away as to the agenda. The Jewish did not believe in the concept of the christian hell… that was paganistic thinking. So, whilst the threats could not work on the Jewish, they could work on the Gentiles.

Heb 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

However, personally, I have never been one to lie to myself regardless of punishments for not doing so.

For the Jewish, Paul uses a different tactic. Paul was trying to lure Jews away from their established teachings about God.

Acts 13:40-41
40-Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41-Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Paul masterfully warns people not to reject his teachings because God will punish them if they do. He misquotes Habakkuk 1:5 which says (in full context)…

Hab 1:4-6
Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I(God) will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
For, lo, I(God) raise up the Chaldeans(Babylon), that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not their’s.

ahem… to those of understanding, Paul actually nailed his own deceitful work in the coffin by drawing attention to this passage!

Hab 1:5 actually states:
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously:…

Hab 1:5 modified by Paul states:
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish:…

In the original verse, God tells his prophet Habakkuk, who lives among those who ignore the law, to look forward with wonder at God’s upcoming judgment that will be imposed on the land by the foreign invading nation.

And this is a favorite method of Paul’s … to distort the Word of God and use it against those who are ignorant of it’s true meaning. It is VERY sad to me that so many will not see the Truth.

I cannnot see where you are understanding the teachings of Paul or Jesus at all. I do not know what you were taught in your Christian faith, but we must have been taught very different things. First of all do not blame the Catholic faith until you have know or learned it, What I mean is, from what you have written we have been taught 2 very different things,

So lets start here, Lets start with our Pope, he has never had anything but great love and respect for the Jewish faith nor taught evil of it. We accept it as our own, THat is why it is in our Bible.

Next I have told you millions of times Yeshua Himlelf declared himself Think not that I am come to destroy the Law (Torah) or the Prophets, I am come come not to destroy but fulfill or bring fullness or rightly interpret.

There were Jews which believed,

Yeshus’s Name was given by an angelic messenger from ADONAI and reveals the special relationship and ministry he has with his Jewish People.

Yeshus was very much a part of Israel and the Jewish people. He taught from the Torah and the Books of Moses and his words, his world and the N.T. is very much a legacy of Israel and the Jewish People.

Where does this hatred for Paul come from. ANd where does this hatred you feel we have for the Jewish People come from. You are very confused with the teachings of Paul and with the Teachings if the Catholic Faith.

Please do not confuse the Catholic faith again with the faith that was taught in your house, In my house we were never taught to hate anyone. We never blamed the Jew for the death of Christ, We were taught that we all were to blame for the death of Jesus Christ it was our sins that killed him, and do every day,

 

[rinnie]

This is something that may shock you. This comes from a Jewish Faith.

Quote Paul (saul) was a good Jew as well, faithfull to Israel’s Torah and Faithful to Israels Messiah. His teachings are in complete harmony with the teachings of Jesus, despite the assertions of some authors who claim that Paul deviated from the pattern established by Jesus and his disciples. founding an alien new religion called Christianity. The consistent testimony of the New Testanent which includes the things Paul said about himself as well as the things said about him affirms this point. What was unique about Paul was his calling to spread the good news about Jesus to the Gentiles but even in this he passed on them the truths he had received as oppposed to creating his own innovations and always kepts Israels salvation foremost in his mind. unquote

So YOUR teaching are in no way what the Catholic Church teaches, or what the Jewish faith teaches, So what really more can I say, You feel that you know the OT and the NT and I am sorry you sure do not understand the teachings of Paul in the N,T, Your teachings are not the teachhings if the Church, Sure you can quote scripture, all day, ANd your scripture quote is correct. Its your intrepretation that is all screwed up.

I do not know what you want from us. What can we show or teach you that you do not know? For you seem to know it all. In your mind you are here to teach, And when we do not accept your teachings you seem to get angry. We will not accept your version of the truth, Because it is not our truth. We have much in common with the Jewish faith, and they are seeing that Jesus Christ is the Lord, More and More are turning to the Christian faith in record numbers. Why is this so hard for you to accept. And the Jewish faith like us accept pauls teachings, Its you who have the hard time.

 

[simplynoone]

I cannnot see where you are understanding the teachings of Paul or Jesus at all. I do not know what you were taught in your Christian faith, but we must have been taught very different things. First of all do not blame the Catholic faith until you have know or learned it, What I mean is, from what you have written we have been taught 2 very different things,

It is ironic honestly because minus the traditions and praying to the saints, the Catholic teachings are quite similar to what I was brought up in.

Next I have told you millions of times Yeshua Himlelf declared himself Think not that I am come to destroy the Law (Torah) or the Prophets, I am come come not to destroy but fulfill or bring fullness or rightly interpret.

And I have told you, Rinnie, that Paul claimed he did abolish the Law.

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Something that is blotted out cannot still be claimed to be in full effect.
As the verse states, the ordinances have been taken out of the way and are no longer applicable. The verse does not say that only the penalty of the law was removed.
It says the handwriting of the law was removed and nailed to the cross.

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

As the verse states, even the commandments of the law were deemed abolished by the death of Jesus.

The New Living Translation Bible states in Eph 2:15 that Jesus “ended the whole system of Jewish law” and merged the old system into a new system that he established at his death. The assertion that the law wasn’t ended and is still in full effect simply doesn’t hold up to the scriptural evidence that states otherwise and in fact, if Jesus fulfilled it for mankind, it has been abolished since the Church claims that you are no longer bound to it.

This contradicts what Jesus said though.

Matt 5:17-19(Jesus speaking)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[rinnie]

You claim do you not that if Jesus is God we are guilty of making God into man Correct?

 

[simplynoone]

You claim do you not that if Jesus is God we are guilty of making God into man Correct?

I have only repeated what it says in the Tanakh. So, it is not my claim; I just trust what He said in the part of the Bible that comes with a Seal and the Promise to prove Himself. I can not argue with it.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

That is two fold right there:

1. God is NOT a man
2. And He is not a man, that He should lie.

Also, he is not the son of man!! He is not the son of man that He should repent.

This means that what He did not change His mind about what He declared perfect. This, to me, is proof positive that I can trust His declarations that He made… He did not change His mind about Ezekiel 18… that if the wicked person considers his wickedness and turns to walk in the ways of God, he shall save his soul alive… there was no talk of human sacrifice and/or resurrection … no talk anywhere of a man who is God to do these things that are attributed to Jesus as claimed by paul and christians.

He reinforces His point in Hosea 11 that He is not a man.

for I am God, and not man

Tell me Rinnie, why should I not believe this when He has given me every reason TO trust Him… He has proved to me the promises that He made in the Tanakh.

Malachi 4, Proverbs 2, Isaiah 28, Psalm 119… He has done these things for me and now I should not trust Him when He says in that same Word that He is not a man?

 

[rinnie]

It is ironic honestly because minus the traditions and praying to the saints, the Catholic teachings are quite similar to what I was brought up in.

And I have told you, Rinnie, that Paul claimed he did abolish the Law.

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Something that is blotted out cannot still be claimed to be in full effect.
As the verse states, the ordinances have been taken out of the way and are no longer applicable. The verse does not say that only the penalty of the law was removed.
It says the handwriting of the law was removed and nailed to the cross.

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

As the verse states, even the commandments of the law were deemed abolished by the death of Jesus.

The New Living Translation Bible states in Eph 2:15 that Jesus “ended the whole system of Jewish law” and merged the old system into a new system that he established at his death. The assertion that the law wasn’t ended and is still in full effect simply doesn’t hold up to the scriptural evidence that states otherwise and in fact, if Jesus fulfilled it for mankind, it has been abolished since the Church claims that you are no longer bound to it.

This contradicts what Jesus said though.

Matt 5:17-19(Jesus speaking)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Show me where did Paul ever teach that the Torah was null and void?

 

[rinnie]

I have only repeated what it says in the Tanakh. So, it is not my claim; I just trust what He said in the part of the Bible that comes with a Seal and the Promise to prove Himself. I can not argue with it.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

That is two fold right there:

1. God is NOT a man
2. And He is not a man, that He should lie.

Also, he is not the son of man!! He is not the son of man that He should repent.

This means that what He did not change His mind about what He declared perfect. This, to me, is proof positive that I can trust His declarations that He made… He did not change His mind about Ezekiel 18… that if the wicked person considers his wickedness and turns to walk in the ways of God, he shall save his soul alive… there was no talk of human sacrifice and/or resurrection … no talk anywhere of a man who is God to do these things that are attributed to Jesus as claimed by paul and christians.

He reinforces His point in Hosea 11 that He is not a man.

for I am God, and not man

Tell me Rinnie, why should I not believe this when He has given me every reason TO trust Him… He has proved to me the promises that He made in the Tanakh.

Malachi 4, Proverbs 2, Isaiah 28, Psalm 119… He has done these things for me and now I should not trust Him when He says in that same Word that He is not a man?

If that is not your claim who’s is it, It sure is not the Jews claim. This is what the Jews claim about Jesus being God.

Quote: We believe that the eternally preexistent Son of God through whom the universe was made came forth from God his Father and was clothed with HUMAN FLESH. making himslef know to us as Yeshua The Messiah. He lived on this earth died, rose from the dead and returned to his Father. Unquote

THey also said that since the Son came forth from the Father and shares his Divine nature in ONE SENSE it is QUITE CORRECT TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR DIVINE OR DEITY.

 

[simplynoone]

Show me where did Paul ever teach that the Torah was null and void?

sighs

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

What the Torah says:
Gen 17:10,14
This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And the Testimony:
Ezek 44:9
Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

1 Cor 10:25
Whatever in the meat-market is sold eat ye, not inquiring, because of the conscience,

What the Torah says:
Lev 11:7-8
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances(Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What the Torah says:
Deut 6:17
Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes(laws), which he hath commanded thee.

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What the Torah says:
Deut 6:25
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Deut 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

2 Cor 3:6
Who(God) also hath made us(Paul and his followers) able ministers of the new testament(covenant); not of the letter(law), but of the spirit: for the letter(law) killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What the Torah says:
Deut 26:16-17
This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes(laws), and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:

And the Psalmist says:
Psa 119:110-115
The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.
Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

 

[simplynoone]

If that is not your claim who’s is it, It sure is not the Jews claim. This is what the Jews claim about Jesus being God.

Quote: We believe that the eternally preexistent Son of God through whom the universe was made came forth from God his Father and was clothed with HUMAN FLESH. making himslef know to us as Yeshua The Messiah. He lived on this earth died, rose from the dead and returned to his Father. Unquote

THey also said that since the Son came forth from the Father and shares his Divine nature in ONE SENSE it is QUITE CORRECT TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD OR DIVINE OR DEITY.

Yes, and there is a remnant of Jews who are remaining faithful to God and not laying aside the Word of God to please man. The Word that I posted is from the Word of God… so, I trust that it is the claim of God; that He is not a man. Just because a Jew says that God changed His mind and became a man named Jesus (insert variation of name @ your pleasure) does not mean that God is, in fact a liar… it means that some of the Jews have been led astray.

I do not trust man… even if he is a Jew. I have been let down by a Jew just the same as I have been let down by other races of men/religions of men/ declarations of men. I trust God’s Word. That is my security and where I find my salvation. It was declared right the first time around. I trust Him because He has given me reason to trust Him… more so than anyone else.

 

[rinnie]

You claim Paul abolished the LaW

Big misconception on your part may I add.

Paul took the message of the Messsiah to the Gentiles without requiring them to follow the torrah,

Paul clearly explained that we are ultimatley made right with God though fiath, which is followed by good works.

Some of Pauls teaching are quite deep and misunderstood (especially by you)

Paul emphasized how God had broken down the barrier that reunited them as one spiritual family.

Paul clearly viewed the Torah from a different perspective in light of the Messianic ers. (again Paul never null or voided it)

Paul LIVED and DIED as a TORAH-OBSERVANT JEW and never TAUGHT OR THREATENED the Jewish should abandon the Torah.

ALTHOUGH IT APPEARS THAT IF TAKING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE MESSIAH TO THE GENTILES MEANT THAT HE SOMETIMES HAD A BREAK A CERTAIN LAW OR TRADITION SUCH AS A DIETARY RESTRICITON THEN HE WOULD HE WILLING TO DO THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR SALVATION. A PRINCIPLE THAT COULD EVEN BE DEDUCED FORMT HE RABBINIC THINKING AS WELL.

 

[simplynoone]

If anyone of you are willing to do all of the following to show that you FULLY believe what you are teaching and do this with multiple eyewitnesses, then maybe you have got something here… but thus far, this goes widely ignored and understandably so… I could never even get the “laying hands on the sick to work.”

Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Yet God brought to my attention the promise in Malachi 3 (correction to above post)
10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

He brought it to my attention at the exact moment when I had a choice to make regarding something personal… a risk, if you will… and it was brought to my attention unexpectedly. I immediately decided to test and immediately… w/in that day, the promise was being brought to full effect in a way that was TRULY what I would consider a miracle (though not a hocus pocus kind that is so abundant in the NT).

This is not the only promise in which He has made known and immediately given me the fulfillment of upon meeting the conditions…I never had that type of assurance with anything in the NT. These left me without doubt as to where the Word of God really is at. I can not doubt… Proverbs 2:1-7 is very true as well. He has given me HIS understanding and not the understanding of men (which is where you have admitted to getting yours).

Do you really have enough faith to take hold of Mark 16?

 

[orange_man]

Ok, here is the deal. Some posters have begun throwing this claim around. What we need to see is proof. Not generalities, but specific examples of Paul teaching something that is in opposition to Jesus.

Further, the claim is made that Paul was never a member of the group of followers in Jerusalem. This is disproven in passages in Acts. Why do you hold to that idea?

Paul was an apostle of Christ, ordained by God as apostle to the Gentiles. To deny this is heresy.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, and there is a remnant of Jews who are remaining faithful to God and not laying aside the Word of God to please man. The Word that I posted is from the Word of God… so, I trust that it is the claim of God; that He is not a man. Just because a Jew says that God changed His mind and became a man named Jesus (insert variation of name @ your pleasure) does not mean that God is, in fact a liar… it means that some of the Jews have been led astray.

I do not trust man… even if he is a Jew. I have been let down by a Jew just the same as I have been let down by other races of men/religions of men/ declarations of men. I trust God’s Word. That is my security and where I find my salvation. It was declared right the first time around. I trust Him because He has given me reason to trust Him… more so than anyone else.

But what are you missing here. I am not asking you to trust me, or trust a Jew. You say you trust the word of God, then trust it. I am showing you that there are Jews who see it as we see it also who accept God. He became Man for our Salvation. What faith do you believe in, you say the word of God if not the bible or Church where do you get it. And on what authorty do you speak from. Do you acknowledge scripture, do you acknowledge the word of God, if so again where is your authority?