Paul leads GOP NH field 2016, Hillary leads Dems

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This is where prudential judgment comes in. I imagine there are many who disagree with this claim.
Can you give an example showing that Republican Party supports “degrading conditions of work which treat labourers as mere instruments of profit?” Prudential judgment should be based on more than partisan hatred or bias IMO. There should be some actual basis in reality.
 
Perhaps you could debunk the argument for all of us here?

Mulligan, I wouldn’t take much stock in a “catholic” voting guide that lumps in abortion with “the environment and equality” as a grave issue. The article, far from debunking anything, serves as exhibit A of liberal catholic non-logic.

Ishii
According to your reasoning, we really don’t need to study each candidate and read up on all of their positions and assess them in totality - all we really need to do is refer to the so-called non-negotiables. Perhaps you’d like to fill out my voting ballot for me? :rolleyes: After all, according to your logic, I don’t need to think for myself.

I don’t understand the mentality of those who subscribe to the 5 non-negotiables. Instead of asking “what can **I **do to make our country better?” - all of your non-negotiable issues are related to what “someone else” is doing. In essence you’re saying “I don’t like what so-and-so is doing and I want the all-powerful government to enforce compliance with my way of thinking.” This mindset indicates that your happiness in life is not tied to your own actions, but rather the actions of others. Why the unseemly fascination with what other people are doing? The so-called 5 non-negotiables is basically “governmental nannyism run amok”.
 
According to your reasoning, we really don’t need to study each candidate and read up on all of their positions and assess them in totality - all we really need to do is refer to the so-called non-negotiables. Perhaps you’d like to fill out my voting ballot for me? :rolleyes: After all, according to your logic, I don’t need to think for myself.

I don’t understand the mentality of those who subscribe to the 5 non-negotiables. Instead of asking “what can **I **do to make our country better?” - all of your non-negotiable issues are related to what “someone else” is doing. In essence you’re saying “I don’t like what so-and-so is doing and I want the all-powerful government to enforce compliance with my way of thinking.” This mindset indicates that your happiness in life is not tied to your own actions, but rather the actions of others. Why the unseemly fascination with what other people are doing? The so-called 5 non-negotiables is basically “governmental nannyism run amok”.
That’s an interesting outlook. Are you Catholic?

“Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit; whatever is offensive to human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution and trafficking in women and children; degrading conditions of work which treat labourers as mere instruments of profit, and not as free responsible persons: all these and the like are a disgrace, and so long as they infect human civilization they contaminate those who inflict them more than those who suffer injustice, and they are a negation of the honour due to the Creator.”

Is opposing slavery, genocide, prostitution and trafficking in women and children, etc. nothing more than issues related to what “someone else is doing?” Should we not be concerned about those issues, as it is just calling for a “nanny state?”

The “non-negotiables” people have mentioned are equally evil. We should oppose them, rather than dismissing them as “unseemly fascination with what other people are doing.”
 
The idea behind the five ‘non-negotiables’ is simply that it is wrong to support a candidate who endorses an intrinsic evil. A candidate who endorses intrinsic evil cannot be trusted to support the common good, for the common good is undermined when intrinsic evil is supported by elected officials.

It would be like supporting slaveholding because you don’t want to impose your morality on slaveholders and there are other more important issues to worry about.
 
Oh please. Where is this extreme poverty in America, gracepoole? And what definition of extreme poverty are you using? Here is a definition I found:

a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information"

Ishii
It’s on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, where the Oglala Sioux live.

"Extreme Poverty

"The poverty on Pine Ridge can be described in no other terms than third world. It is common to find homes overcrowded, as those with homes take in whoever needs a roof over their heads. Many homes are without running water, and without sewer.

"Pine Ridge Statistics as of 2007
Code:
* Unemployment rate of 80-90%
* Per capita income of $4,000
* 8 Times the United States rate of diabetes
* 5 Times the United States rate of cervical cancer
* Twice the rate of heart disease
* 8 Times the United States rate of Tuberculosis
* Alcoholism rate estimated as high as 80%
* 1 in 4 infants born with fetal alcohol syndrome or effects
* Suicide rate more than twice the national rate
* Teen suicide rate 4 times the national rate
* Infant mortality is three times the national rate
“Life expectancy on Pine Ridge is the lowest in the United States and the 2nd lowest in the Western Hemisphere. Only Haiti has a lower rate.”

re-member.org/pine-ridge-reservation.aspx

Please note. While I am posting the above link as a reference source for my quote, I am not endorsing the particular charity connected with the website, and in fact, prefer not to donate to it myself. If anyone is interested who would like information on how best to donate (in my opinion) so you know exactly where and how the money is used, you are welcome to PM me.

~~ the phoenix
 
It’s on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, where the Oglala Sioux live.

"Extreme Poverty

"The poverty on Pine Ridge can be described in no other terms than third world. It is common to find homes overcrowded, as those with homes take in whoever needs a roof over their heads. Many homes are without running water, and without sewer.

"Pine Ridge Statistics as of 2007
Code:
* Unemployment rate of 80-90%
* Per capita income of $4,000
* 8 Times the United States rate of diabetes
* 5 Times the United States rate of cervical cancer
* Twice the rate of heart disease
* 8 Times the United States rate of Tuberculosis
* Alcoholism rate estimated as high as 80%
* 1 in 4 infants born with fetal alcohol syndrome or effects
* Suicide rate more than twice the national rate
* Teen suicide rate 4 times the national rate
* Infant mortality is three times the national rate
“Life expectancy on Pine Ridge is the lowest in the United States and the 2nd lowest in the Western Hemisphere. Only Haiti has a lower rate.”

re-member.org/pine-ridge-reservation.aspx

Please note. While I am posting the above link as a reference source for my quote, I am not endorsing the particular charity connected with the website, and in fact, prefer not to donate to it myself. If anyone is interested who would like information on how best to donate (in my opinion) so you know exactly where and how the money is used, you are welcome to PM me.

~~ the phoenix
All of this is according to the website you linked to. Can you vouch for its accuracy? Do you really think that the condition on the reservation are similar to that of Haiti? Interesting that the site making the claims about the Pine Ridge reservation is also accepting donations. :hmmm:

But even if the conditions are bad, I don’t have any reason to doubt that poverty does indeed exist on the reservation, how does that relate to the “non-negotiables” and how we vote for senators and presidents? I mean, is the poverty there a function of how much government aid is available? Or is perhaps due to other factors?

Ishii
 
According to your reasoning, we really don’t need to study each candidate and read up on all of their positions and assess them in totality - all we really need to do is refer to the so-called non-negotiables. Perhaps you’d like to fill out my voting ballot for me? :rolleyes: After all, according to your logic, I don’t need to think for myself.
Where did you get that idea? I am merely saying we shouldn’t include among the non-negotiables, candidates’ allegiance to pet liberal issues. Of course we should read up on each candidate and take their positions and assess them in totality. But you shouldn’t place, say, federal $$ for school lunch funding ahead of abortion in terms of moral gravity. Are you able to grasp that?
I don’t understand the mentality of those who subscribe to the 5 non-negotiables. Instead of asking “what can **I **do to make our country better?” - all of your non-negotiable issues are related to what “someone else” is doing. In essence you’re saying “I don’t like what so-and-so is doing and I want the all-powerful government to enforce compliance with my way of thinking.” This mindset indicates that your happiness in life is not tied to your own actions, but rather the actions of others. Why the unseemly fascination with what other people are doing? The so-called 5 non-negotiables is basically “governmental nannyism run amok”.
Not at all. All we’re saying is, in the voting booth, consider where the candidates stand on the non-negotiables. That does not speak at all to what individuals must do on their own to promote, for example, a culture of life. Would you say that laws against rape, murder, etc. are mere “govt. nannyism” ?

Ishii
 
Catholics can have differing views on i.e. immigration, tax, health care and infalliable teaching that Catholics can not differ on i.e. abortion, marriage, embryonic stem cell research, human cloning
If that is true, how do you explain the fact that the most pro-abortion American Congressman in US history was a Roman Catholic priest, Father Drinan?
 
All of this is according to the website you linked to. Can you vouch for its accuracy? Do you really think that the condition on the reservation are similar to that of Haiti? Interesting that the site making the claims about the Pine Ridge reservation is also accepting donations. :hmmm:

But even if the conditions are bad, I don’t have any reason to doubt that poverty does indeed exist on the reservation, how does that relate to the “non-negotiables” and how we vote for senators and presidents? I mean, is the poverty there a function of how much government aid is available? Or is perhaps due to other factors?

Ishii
Here’s another link from the Red Cloud Indian School … I won’t post all the statistics here, but you’re welcome to compare them, keeping in mind that the previous website’s information was from 2007. This information mentions 2008 at the bottom of the page.

redcloudschool.org/reservation

Here is a call for help that went out in 2010. It gives the names, addresses, and phone numbers of actual poor people, as well as the names, addresses, and phone numbers of a grocery store, electric company, and propane company for those wishing to help. I can tell you personally it’s for real:

lists.opn.org/pipermail/poclad_lists.opn.org/2010-January/001334.html

And as for what this has to do with the non-negotiables? Quite honestly, I posted this Pine Ridge information because you asked the question as to where extreme poverty exists in America. Here’s my answer.

Personally, as a pro-lifer, I believe in helping those in extreme poverty … as well as voting pro-life. As for the reasons for the poverty on Pine Ridge, that’s a topic worth an entire thread by itself. The government aid part is one factor, and yes, there are indeed many other factors. I discovered the information on Pine Ridge quite by accident, while researching the Badlands of South Dakota while planning a vacation there.

Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta,
pray for us.

~~ the phoenix
 
We’ve heard from several posters who claim that it is possible for a Catholic to support the Democratic Party because of the Republican Party’s support of things that they consider to be more grave than abortion. Below are links to the platform statements of both parties. Reading them both, I see explicit support for abortion in the platform statement of the Democrats:
Democratic National Platform:
The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay.
One poster in particular has claimed that the Republican’s support of “extreme poverty” is sufficiently grave to ignore the Democrats’ stated position on abortion. I’ve searched the Republican platform statement thoroughly, and I can’t see anything that points to them supporting keeping people in “extreme poverty”. Neither is there language supporting human trafficking, slavery, or kicking puppies. So, based on the platform statements from the parties themselves, what Republican position justifies the Democratic Party’s support of the murder of over 1 million children per year through legalized abortion?
 
Where did you get that idea? I am merely saying we shouldn’t include among the non-negotiables, candidates’ allegiance to pet liberal issues. Of course we should read up on each candidate and take their positions and assess them in totality. But you shouldn’t place, say, federal $$ for school lunch funding ahead of abortion in terms of moral gravity. Are you able to grasp that?

Not at all. All we’re saying is, in the voting booth, consider where the candidates stand on the non-negotiables. That does not speak at all to what individuals must do on their own to promote, for example, a culture of life. Would you say that laws against rape, murder, etc. are mere “govt. nannyism” ?

Ishii
The role of government is to protect individual rights. Laws against rape, murder, etc. are designed to protect an individual’s right to not be raped, murdered, etc. These laws are designed to prevent “someone” from doing something to “someone else” against their will. That is not governmental nannyism - it is the government doing its purpose. However, marriage equality, for instance, is purely about “the two individuals” getting married. It doesn’t affect “you” in any way. You may be displeased with their choice, but there is no constitutional law against not being offended. That is the tradeoff for living in a pluralistic country as opposed to a theocracy.
 
Is opposing slavery, genocide, prostitution and trafficking in women and children, etc. nothing more than issues related to what “someone else is doing?” Should we not be concerned about those issues, as it is just calling for a “nanny state?”
All of these things you mentioned - slavery, genocide - are what someone is doing to someone else - and they must be opposed.

Many of the other things are choices people make for themselves - they do not affect you, me, or anyone else. A nanny state would be making laws because you do not approve of these choices that others make.
 
We’ve heard from several posters who claim that it is possible for a Catholic to support the Democratic Party because of the Republican Party’s support of things that they consider to be more grave than abortion. Below are links to the platform statements of both parties. Reading them both, I see explicit support for abortion in the platform statement of the Democrats:One poster in particular has claimed that the Republican’s support of “extreme poverty” is sufficiently grave to ignore the Democrats’ stated position on abortion. I’ve searched the Republican platform statement thoroughly, and I can’t see anything that points to them supporting keeping people in “extreme poverty”. Neither is there language supporting human trafficking, slavery, or kicking puppies. So, based on the platform statements from the parties themselves, what Republican position justifies the Democratic Party’s support of the murder of over 1 million children per year through legalized abortion?
The poor have gotten poorer under Obama. The idea that a vote for Democrats is a vote against poverty has no basis in facts of any kind. It is delusional to think that Democrats have the solution for poverty.

Republicans of course do not have the solution for poverty either. However to believe that Republicans somehow ‘believe in’ extreme poverty is either delusional to the extreme, or just as likely a hateful, calculated lie on behalf of Democrats.

As far as abortion goes, it is not tangential to the goal of the Democrats and their feminist allies. It is absolutely crucial to feminists that women be freed from the constraints of their biology. It is absolutely crucial that women be freed from the domestic scene that focuses on children.
The fact is that having children is not only brutalizes a woman’s body, but it ends up defining so much of a woman’s life from the moment of conception until the little birds leave the nest. Feminism assessed that a woman’s equality and freedom from the patriarchal family hinged upon the liberation of woman from the domestic slavery, which means making children and motherhood minor or non-existent parts of a woman’s identity.
Abortion is the core platform for feminism, and the femists and the Democrats are joined to the hips.
 
All of these things you mentioned - slavery, genocide - are what someone is doing to someone else - and they must be opposed.

Many of the other things are choices people make for themselves - they do not affect you, me, or anyone else. A nanny state would be making laws because you do not approve of these choices that others make.
So restricting our religious freedom doesn’t affect us? Right…
 
The role of government is to protect individual rights. Laws against rape, murder, etc. are designed to protect an individual’s right to not be raped, murdered, etc. These laws are designed to prevent “someone” from doing something to “someone else” against their will. That is not governmental nannyism - it is the government doing its purpose. However, marriage equality, for instance, is purely about “the two individuals” getting married. It doesn’t affect “you” in any way. You may be displeased with their choice, but there is no constitutional law against not being offended. That is the tradeoff for living in a pluralistic country as opposed to a theocracy.
So restricting our religious freedom doesn’t affect us? Right…
 
Example?

Nothing in my earlier posts referenced religious freedom.
You said that “marriage equality” (I’m making the assumption you mean gay marriage by that) doesn’t affect “you” (you weren’t talking to me but I’m assuming you meant Catholics/people in general) in any way.
 
The role of government is to protect individual rights. Laws against rape, murder, etc. are designed to protect an individual’s right to not be raped, murdered, etc. These laws are designed to prevent “someone” from doing something to “someone else” against their will. That is not governmental nannyism - it is the government doing its purpose. However, marriage equality, for instance, is purely about “the two individuals” getting married. It doesn’t affect “you” in any way. You may be displeased with their choice, but there is no constitutional law against not being offended. That is the tradeoff for living in a pluralistic country as opposed to a theocracy.
Now I think you’re trying to change the subject. Forget about marriage equality, Mulligan. How about abortion? Is passing laws against abortion, “nannyism” ?

Ishii
 
Now I think you’re trying to change the subject. Forget about marriage equality, Mulligan. How about abortion? Is passing laws against abortion, “nannyism” ?

Ishii
Yes, because it’s not about you.

Who’s trying to change the subject?
 
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