Paul leads GOP NH field 2016, Hillary leads Dems

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Right. I don’t see where the GOP has changed all that much from the time of Nixon to today on the issue of clean air. So, in that regard it is the same party not a totally different one.
Clean air is a non-issue. The only time it comes up in my area is when the air stagnates and the authorities issue a burn ban. Then I can’t build a fire in my woodstove. My other points still stand though. The GOP has changed a great deal since Nixon. You could also say that the GOP is against Yippies disrupting political conventions, and would be today as well, if that was an issue. But in the end, you aren’t saying much.

Ishii
 
Ishii,

I have stated my position already. Please understand that I am not interested in repeating my earlier comments. My work week has started, and I will be not be able to participate further at this time. However, if you wish, you may refer to my posts 390 and 391 where I have given my explanation.
Come on, just reference the posts. We don’t need the whole “I don’t have time” deal. We all have lives outside of CAF and you don’t have to explain leaving.
 
Yet Gingrich and Santorum could not win the GOP primary, where the voters are decidedly more conservative than in a general election. The notion that either of them would have done better than Romney in a general election would seem to defy logic.
Gingrich and Santorum split an already split conservative vote and Romney had the money and the backing of the establishment. I even think the democrat elite wanted him to win the nomination due to Occupy Wall Street.
=Mulligan2;11409916]And who were these supposed “good candidates” that you reference? Bachmann, Cain, Perry, Gingrich, and Santorum would have lost by wider margins than Romney.
If 3 million conservatives really did sit at home, those candidates could defeated Barack Hussien Obama if they had held independents.

Herman Cain would have been a truly deadly opponent against a democrat. Just think of the havoc he would have caused by getting even 33% of the Black vote. That’s probably why they had that whole (still unproven) scandal brought up.

Liberals fear minority conservative candidates.

And unlike Obama, he’s descended from slaves.
Santorum lost his last Senate race by double digits - yet somehow he could win a national election??? :rolleyes:
That analysis is somewhat flawed (at least incomplete) and used by the elite to keep him from getting the nomination and elected. Santorum lost big because he was running a blue state and people were mad over the Iraq War.

Santorum also won in a democratic house district with over 60% of the vote and was the only candidate in that field who had beaten a democrat incumbent.
The one primary candidate who I thought had a chance to beat President Obama in the general election was Jon Huntsmann. In most of the interviews I saw, he came across as more of statesman and less of a politician. And in the early primary debates, he came across as the grown-up of the group. However, I don’t think he will run again.
:rotfl:

Did an Obama supporter just call the adults in the room children???

I think you just want to liberalize the GOP. :rolleyes:

In 2016 the democrats should forget Hillary and Biden and run Joe Manchin III and Jim Matheson. 😃
 
I also think the Republican electorate fell for the ‘electability’ arguments that were made by the talking heads at the time.
As do I.

Romney got about 16% of the TEA PARTY vote, according to Rasmussen.

People thought he’d pick up a few Midwest states or maybe even a northeast state on a great day.

Dick Morris thought he’d get the entire Upper Midwest----minus Illinois.
 
I suppose we’ll have to disagree then. I think Speaker Gingrich or Senator Santorum could have won the Republican nominations if they weren’t faced with the tremendous funding that Governor Romney had. But that money gave Governor Romney the chance to go VERY negative and neither had the funding to counteract it.

I also think the Republican electorate fell for the ‘electability’ arguments that were made by the talking heads at the time. Instead of voting for the person that they felt best represented their core beliefs, they voted for the fellow that could win. Except he didn’t.
You seem to be saying that the Republican party should have nominated a conservative candidate instead of a moderate candidate. I am assuming you think that a conservative candidate would have energized the Republican base to get out and vote, and that would have more than offset any Independent voters who would not vote for a conservative.

The problem with this theory is that the Republican party is not just a continuum of moderate-to-conservative voters. The party consists of many factions with disparate positions - i.e. social conservatives, defense hawks, nationalists, the low tax / Club For Growth crowd, deficit hawks, small government / libertarians, the Republican establishment, Big Business, etc. These various groups all have different issues they believe are most important. In fact, some of their positions are in opposition to each other. With that in mind, how do you know that most GOP primary voters “didn’t” vote for the candidate that best represented their core beliefs?

You mentioned Santorum. He would be most clearly identified as s social conservative. However, the social trends in the USA, along with demographics, indicate that a candidate who is most identified as a social conservative, will be increasingly less competitive in national elections.
 
That would be my question too, going all the way back to the early 1900’s. Maybe some cosmetic surgery along the way, but still basically the same ideology.
I think this is what some would like others to believe, but as I posted earlier, the GOP has changed a great deal in the past 40 years. So far I haven’t seen any comments on the substance of my post other than the idea that since Republicans today don’t want to repeal the Clean Air Act passed by Nixon, the party is exactly the same today as it was under Nixon.

Ishii
 
I think this is what some would like others to believe, but as I posted earlier, the GOP has changed a great deal in the past 40 years. So far I haven’t seen any comments on the substance of my post other than the idea that since Republicans today don’t want to repeal the Clean Air Act passed by Nixon, the party is exactly the same today as it was under Nixon.

Ishii
In 1964, Barry Goldwater was the Republican nominee for President. Was he all that different from some of the conservative Republicans of today.
Of course, it has to be admitted that political parties change. The Democratic party has changed also in some respects, but it is still the Democratic party.
 
In an early look at the 2016 race for the White House, New Jersey Republican Gov. Christopher Christie tops former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton 46 - 38 percent in Colorado, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.
This compares to results of an August 23 survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN- uh-pe-ack) University, showing Gov. Christie with 43 percent and Secretary Clinton at 42 percent, a tie.
In today’s survey, Clinton runs neck and with other possible Republican candidates;
Clinton at 44 percent to 47 percent for U.S. Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky;
Clinton and U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas tied at 44 - 44 percent;
Clinton at 43 percent to 45 percent for U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin.
quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/colorado/release-detail?ReleaseID=1978
 
You seem to be saying that the Republican party should have nominated a conservative candidate instead of a moderate candidate. I am assuming you think that a conservative candidate would have energized the Republican base to get out and vote, and that would have more than offset any Independent voters who would not vote for a conservative.

The problem with this theory is that the Republican party is not just a continuum of moderate-to-conservative voters. The party consists of many factions with disparate positions - i.e. social conservatives, defense hawks, nationalists, the low tax / Club For Growth crowd, deficit hawks, small government / libertarians, the Republican establishment, Big Business, etc. These various groups all have different issues they believe are most important. In fact, some of their positions are in opposition to each other. With that in mind, how do you know that most GOP primary voters “didn’t” vote for the candidate that best represented their core beliefs?

You mentioned Santorum. He would be most clearly identified as s social conservative. However, the social trends in the USA, along with demographics, indicate that a candidate who is most identified as a social conservative, will be increasingly less competitive in national elections.
No, I’m saying the Republican party should have nominated the candidate that best represented their values. His campaign in the primaries was totally negative. The voters weren’t buying into Governor Romney’s views, because he wasn’t articulating them; he was slamming his competition. I believe that Governor Romney didn’t have true supporters, just people that saw him as the least worst choice because they believed the ads. Ads that others couldn’t compete with because lack of money.

If social conservatives are less competitive in national elections, then there is little hope of overturning Roe v. Wade. But I don’t think there is evidence for that and would like to hear your example of a true social conservative that ran poorly for a national office.
 
In 1964, Barry Goldwater was the Republican nominee for President. Was he all that different from some of the conservative Republicans of today.
I’m not sure how he differed from the southern Democrats. 🤷

But one thing that stays the same is that business always supports Republicans, and labor always supports Democrats. For the most part at least.
 
You seem to be saying that the Republican party should have nominated a conservative candidate instead of a moderate candidate. I am assuming you think that a conservative candidate would have energized the Republican base to get out and vote,
It would have.
and that would have more than offset any Independent voters who would not vote for a conservative.
Independents vote on economics unless we are losing a major foreign war.
The problem with this theory is that the Republican party is not just a continuum of moderate-to-conservative voters. The party consists of many factions with disparate positions - i.e. social conservatives, defense hawks, nationalists, the low tax / Club For Growth crowd, deficit hawks, small government / libertarians, the Republican establishment, Big Business, etc. These various groups all have different issues they believe are most important. In fact, some of their positions are in opposition to each other.
The democrats have the same issues.
With that in mind, how do you know that most GOP primary voters “didn’t” vote for the candidate that best represented their core beliefs?
  1. Just enough TEA PARTY folks supported Romney
  2. Romney was actually more conservative than people thought.
You mentioned Santorum. He would be most clearly identified as s social conservative. However, the social trends in the USA, along with demographics, indicate that a candidate who is most identified as a social conservative, will be increasingly less competitive in national elections.
Not if his/her economic/health care policies work!

Ah yes, demographics! It’s always interesting to get lectured by the party of so-called “gay marriage”, abortion, feminism and free contraception on demand about dying out.

And have you seen African-Americans leaving the democrats in droves?

We’ll see how it shakes down without Obama on the ballot.
 
No, I’m saying the Republican party should have nominated the candidate that best represented their values. His campaign in the primaries was totally negative. The voters weren’t buying into Governor Romney’s views, because he wasn’t articulating them; he was slamming his competition. I believe that Governor Romney didn’t have true supporters, just people that saw him as the least worst choice because they believed the ads. Ads that others couldn’t compete with because lack of money.

If social conservatives are less competitive in national elections, then there is little hope of overturning Roe v. Wade. But I don’t think there is evidence for that and would like to hear your example of a true social conservative that ran poorly for a national office.
The problem with Roe is that it is fundamentally unconstitutional. However, a plurality of Americans will support abortion in limited cases.
 
The problem with Roe is that it is fundamentally unconstitutional. However, a plurality of Americans will support abortion in limited cases.
Do you agree with Mulligan that social conservatives would fair poorly in a national election?
 
Do you agree with Mulligan that social conservatives would fair poorly in a national election?
No, because elections are usually about economics more than anything else. In 2014 and 2016 I can pretty much promise you that not too people are going to be thinking about condoms, gay rights or abortion.

If the GOP ran a minority social conservative for president, it’d be lights out. Why do you think they attack Palin, Bachmann, Cain, West and O’Donnell so harshly? They need such huge percentages in their coalition just to scrape by.

Also, voters want politicians who stand for things. Being all muddled just confuses the electorate and that’s where you get “I’m going to vote democrat or stay home because there’s no difference between the two parties”. :rolleyes:
 
In 1964, Barry Goldwater was the Republican nominee for President. Was he all that different from some of the conservative Republicans of today.
Of course, it has to be admitted that political parties change. The Democratic party has changed also in some respects, but it is still the Democratic party.
Yes. He was for abortion rights and remained consistent on this throughout his political career. He was a social liberal. Of course its hard to compare the Goldwater of 1964 with the Republicans of more recent times. Gay marriage wasn’t an issue until fairly recently. Abortion was an issue at the state level prior to Roe V Wade but it certainly wasn’t the national hot button issue it is today.

The Democrat party has changed a great deal since the 1950’s and 60’s - it moved further left and took on the social agenda of the secular left. Why do you think so many Democrats left the party in the 70’s and 80’s? It also changed on foreign policy - becoming the party of appeasement and accommodation with communism.

So party’s change - I hope we can agree with that. The Democrat party today is not your grandfather’s Democrat party. Nor is the Republican party.

Ishii
 
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