Paul Ryan Discussion

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So, you would impose restrictions on brainwashing and animal sacrifice (Satanists do that as well, not just “Ancient Pagans.”). It’s good to know you have limits. Some of us have limits on the the taking of innocent human life. 🤷
Our personal beliefs on this issue (and others, I’m sure) are based on different religious teaching. I choose to respect your beliefs as well as those of others, while still adhering to my own.
 
Our personal beliefs on this issue (and others, I’m sure) are based on different religious teaching. I choose to respect your beliefs as well as those of others, while still adhering to my own.
But, not those of Satanists because of the whole, animal sacrifice and brainwash thing. You are all for “imposing religious beliefs” on them… I would appreciate some consistency on this, meltzerboy.
 
Fix thanks so much. You said this much more clearly and using a lot less verbiage! The arguments using wildly unlikely scenarios, hair splitting, and make believe stories are specious once you look at them more closely.

In reality, the whole ‘pro abortion rights’ position is simply a matter of might makes it right. The mother has the power and no restraints by society or other parties who should have an interest and influence (the father for one). Those who support the woman’s right to make this decision must dehumanize the child or they cannot even support their own position.

The scary thing is that given history and the horrors unchecked power have caused in other circumstances, some are very quick to jump on the “they aren’t really human” bandwagon. :eek:

Lisa
That is the essence of the argument. They can attempt to dress it up any way they want but it is about convenience and power.
 
It continually fascinates me that, for some, when science is beneficial to supporting the arguments of those on the pro-life side of the abortion issue (as well as other issues), they explain their position by referring to science; whereas when science can be used to facilitate expressing an opposing viewpoint, they decry science.
I do not see how you come to this conclusion? Science cannot tell us what is right or wrong.
 
I do not see how you come to this conclusion? Science cannot tell us what is right or wrong.
True, but it can be wielded like a double-edged sword, either to be praised when it supports one’s own moral values or derided when it does not.
 
True, but it can be wielded like a double-edged sword, either to be praised when it supports one’s own moral values or derided when it does not.
Can you give us an example of where we have derided science when it doesn’t support our oral views. Especially in the abortion debate
 
If Congress enacts legislation that bans all abortions, including cases of rape and incest, however infrequent they may occur compared to abortion on demand, or if the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, making all abortion illegal, that, to my way of thinking, is forcing a particular religious belief on everyone. My religion permits abortion in such cases, and when a mother’s life is in jeopardy, (Orthodox) Judaism requires abortion. And Judaism is not the only religion that thinks this way. However, which religion can honestly validate the Holocaust or slavery accompanied by lynchings?
Meltzerboy let’s look at this with a realistic scenario. It seems that the arguments supporting abortion focus on the most rare of incidents such as rape or a SERIOUS risk to the health of the mother to engender sympathy for her vis a vis the unborn baby. Or they use highly unlikely if not impossible scenarios as you indicated above.

Starting with the theory that Congress enacts legislation banning all abortions is setting up a strawman. Even restrictions on abortion such as the limitations on partial birth abortion were extremely difficult to get through. As I recall Bill Clinton VETOED this legislation. Now if you were to ask Americans whether a doctor should be able to pull a live baby halfway down the birth canal, stab her to death with a sharp instrument then hack her apart to get her out of the mother’s body, I suspect 99.9% of Americans would say YES ban this hideous practice. But it was difficult to even give STATES the right to make this decision, much less banning this practice completely. Recently a Fetal Pain bill was proposed and it was defeated. A BAN on all abortions from a federal basis is NOT going to happen.

If, and sadly I think unlikely, Roe and her Evil Sisters (Doe, Casey et al) are overturned, the question will go back to the states and many states will allow abortions. Reversal of Roe will NOT make abortion illegal. Before Roe my state allowed abortions. Why do you think that 50 states would suddenly ban abortion? So rest assured this “right” will survive many challenges albeit some limitations would apply.

Back to the religious question, I still maintain that while there are many people of faith who are proponents of protecting life at all stages, it is not ‘pushing a religious practice.’ What religion’s completely unique stance would be determinative? There are many variations of an anti-abortion position even within those religions most associated with the pro-life movement. Further one need not be religious to be pro life. I wasn’t when my position changed. I was raised atheist, liberal, secular and pro abortion. It was my belief that this is a human rights question rather than a religion question that changed my position…years before I became a Catholic.

Further look at other examples, slavery for one, the Southern Baptist faith originated with a Biblical foundation supporting slavery. So was freeing the slaves forcing the Baptists to abandon their religion for another’s practices? How about the modern civil rights movement? Was MLK (a pastor) forcing HIS religion on white people who felt that blacks did not deserve the same rights? No. In both cases it was a matter of HUMAN rights being attacked and thus the movement against them. I grant that there was a religious basis but in a more general sense, not a specific “you are trying to make me a Catholic” basis.

Again, it’s ONLY might makes right. There is no other reason that anyone can support this wholesale slaughter of the unborn.

Lisa
 
As some of you know, I have been vey conflicted with the choice of our candidates this cycle. I have struggled with the thought of voting for the lesser of two evils. I would rather not vote at all. Then, I considered a third candidate vote and got slammed for throwing away a vote that would ultimately go for obama. I got this article from another thread and I thought wow, the people here must read this! Please take a few minutes and consider, as this article so eloquently articlulates what I had so much trouble explaining myself. I am not willing to debate it but, I would be interested in your thoughts about it.

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-asks-about-the-act-of-voting
 
As some of you know, I have been vey conflicted with the choice of our candidates this cycle. I have struggled with the thought of voting for the lesser of two evils. I would rather not vote at all. Then, I considered a third candidate vote and got slammed for throwing away a vote that would ultimately go for obama. I got this article from another thread and I thought wow, the people here must read this! Please take a few minutes and consider, as this article so eloquently articlulates what I had so much trouble explaining myself. I am not willing to debate it but, I would be interested in your thoughts about it.

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-asks-about-the-act-of-voting
I know Mark Shea and have argued with him about this. His viewpoint is no more Catholic than mine, when it comes to voting for the lesser of two evils. He makes the exact same argument, in fact, as a few of our posters here on CAF. There is no new ground broken here…
 
I know Mark Shea and have argued with him about this. His viewpoint is no more Catholic than mine, when it comes to voting for the lesser of two evils. He makes the exact same argument, in fact, as a few of our posters here on CAF. There is no new ground broken here…
Actually, I was more interested in his thoughts about how much our vote really matters and that we are really voting for ourselves and not for a particular candidate. What are your thoughts on the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger? I also thought it was worthwhile to point out the problem with our tendancy to sit in judgment of others who do not agree with our personal views. I do however appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Actually, I was more interested in his thoughts about how much our vote really matters and that we are really voting for ourselves and not for a particular candidate. What are your thoughts on the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger? I also thought it was worthwhile to point out the problem with our tendancy to sit in judgment of others who do not agree with our personal views. I do however appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
I think that the idea that you are “really voting for yourself” is hogwash. Your vote supports the candidate you are voting for, and a third party vote can help elect the greater of two evils. I could care less how it affects your self esteem. As far as Cardinal Ratzinger’s quote, I agree with Archbishop Chaput (and Mark, though he equivocates his position by saying Ratzinger is saying ‘don’t judge others’ reasoning), when he says that he can’t imagine a proportionate issue that trumps abortion.
 
As some of you know, I have been vey conflicted with the choice of our candidates this cycle. I have struggled with the thought of voting for the lesser of two evils. I would rather not vote at all. Then, I considered a third candidate vote and got slammed for throwing away a vote that would ultimately go for obama. I got this article from another thread and I thought wow, the people here must read this! Please take a few minutes and consider, as this article so eloquently articlulates what I had so much trouble explaining myself. I am not willing to debate it but, I would be interested in your thoughts about it.

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/a-reader-asks-about-the-act-of-voting
I read the article. A couple of points - We don’t know the heart of someone who votes for a particular candidate, so we need to careful in judging the person. However, we can judge a voter’s judgement, or the soundness of their “proportional reasons.” If someone votes for a pro-abortion candidate because he/she is promising free lemonade stands for kids, then I think we could all agree that is not a legitimate proportionate reason for voting for the pro-abortion candidate. So can we agree that its okay to judge someone else’s proportional reasons?

Another point - in a close election, votes are not “tiny copper coins.” Our votes matter, not just in terms of what it says about us, but in terms of the effect it has on who wins. Ever heard of Florida in 2000? Tell me your vote doesn’t matter. Shea’s mistake is in assuming that “my vote doesn’t matter.” Catholics are a large voting bloc last I checked. Our votes matter - individually and collectively.

I think Shea’s thinking is borderline scrupulous. I also don’t think he understands the issues - what’s at stake in this election. Given what’s at stake, this election is a moral no-brainer, not an agonizing moral dillemma.

Ishii
 
Can someone explain this latest allegation about Ryan and why I should trust him:

Exclusive: Paul Ryan Quietly Requested Obamacare Cash

Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan is barnstorming the country, promising to repeal every provision of the Affordable Care Act if the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected. But a letter he wrote to the Obama administration may undermine this message.

On December 10, 2010, Ryan penned a letter to the Department of Health and Human Services to recommend a grant application for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan’s district. “The proposed new facility, the Belle City Neighborhood Health Center, will serve both the preventative and comprehensive primary health care needs of thousands of new patients of all ages who are currently without health care,” Ryan wrote.

thenation.com/blog/169757/exclusive-paul-ryan-quietly-requested-obamacare-cash
 
Can someone explain this latest allegation about Ryan and why I should trust him:

Exclusive: Paul Ryan Quietly Requested Obamacare Cash

Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan is barnstorming the country, promising to repeal every provision of the Affordable Care Act if the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected. But a letter he wrote to the Obama administration may undermine this message.

On December 10, 2010, Ryan penned a letter to the Department of Health and Human Services to recommend a grant application for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan’s district. “The proposed new facility, the Belle City Neighborhood Health Center, will serve both the preventative and comprehensive primary health care needs of thousands of new patients of all ages who are currently without health care,” Ryan wrote.

thenation.com/blog/169757/exclusive-paul-ryan-quietly-requested-obamacare-cash
Since when is a letter of recommendation a request for funds?
 
Since when is a letter of recommendation a request for funds?
Since that congressman was writing a recommendation for a grant (cash) application, what would you call it?

John
 
I read the article. A couple of points - We don’t know the heart of someone who votes for a particular candidate, so we need to careful in judging the person. However, we can judge a voter’s judgement, or the soundness of their “proportional reasons.” If someone votes for a pro-abortion candidate because he/she is promising free lemonade stands for kids, then I think we could all agree that is not a legitimate proportionate reason for voting for the pro-abortion candidate. So can we agree that its okay to judge someone else’s proportional reasons?

Another point - in a close election, votes are not “tiny copper coins.” Our votes matter, not just in terms of what it says about us, but in terms of the effect it has on who wins. Ever heard of Florida in 2000? Tell me your vote doesn’t matter. Shea’s mistake is in assuming that “my vote doesn’t matter.” Catholics are a large voting bloc last I checked. Our votes matter - individually and collectively.

I think Shea’s thinking is borderline scrupulous. I also don’t think he understands the issues - what’s at stake in this election. Given what’s at stake, this election is a moral no-brainer, not an agonizing moral dillemma.

Ishii
I remember Florida 2000. I remember feeling the election was rigged. I also am very suspicious of the sudden concern for voter fraud that seems to be a desparate act to prevent a fair election considering only republicans are behind this farce and the obvious fact that these new laws are aimed at keeping down the percentage of likely democratic voters. In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to read the article and I understand and respect your passion to end abortion in this country. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
I remember Florida 2000. I remember feeling the election was rigged. I also am very suspicious of the sudden concern for voter fraud that seems to be a desparate act to prevent a fair election considering only republicans are behind this farce and the obvious fact that these new laws are aimed at keeping down the percentage of likely democratic voters. In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to read the article and I understand and respect your passion to end abortion in this country. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
That’s because you’re believing the talking points put out by those who don’t mind a little voter fraud (in their favor, of course).

Firstly, there is no “sudden concern” for voter fraud. Florida has approximately 180,000 NON-CITIZEN registered voters, and an attempt to update and purge the voter rolls began in 2011.

miamiherald.com/2012/06/12/2846319/how-rick-scotts-noncitizen-voter.html

The Federal government has denied any help to Florida in updating the voter rolls, despite growing evidence of fraud.

nbc-2.com/story/16662854/2012/02/02/nbc2-investigates-voter-fraud

The new laws are an attempt to prevent fraud, and to the screams of those who whine about disenfranchisement (despite voter participation increasing after voter ID laws), I would quote Cicero, and ask "Cui bono?.
 
That’s because you’re believing the talking points put out by those who don’t mind a little voter fraud (in their favor, of course).
You are assuming. I could say the same regarding your position.
You don’t find it suspicious the timing of enacting these new laws. And what about PA? There is no evidence of any cases of voter fraud and yet, it must be “prevented”? The timing is what is suspicious to me. I just think the elections must be fair. The overall statistics of voter fraud in this country does not constitute the actions that have been taken so swiftly right before an election. Please don’t get me wrong, I do think everyone should have to show an ID when voting, but I think there isn’t enough time for some to obtain these specific IDs,( who are used to using say a student id and arent aware of the new laws) to learn about the new restrictions and comply. It’s not just about getting IDs but new early voting laws, preventing the votes on Sunday’s after church that many are used to doing, ect. Aren’t you concerned many legally elligable voters will show up to vote this year and be turned away? I wonder about the constitutionality of some of these new laws.
 
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DeSanto:
You missed the Help America Vote Act (2002)?

Voter reform has been a bit issue since the 2000 election. Its only during election time that it becomes a partisan issue. (Democrat) PA gov Ed Rendell had a voter reform task force from 2004-2011, and one of the recommendations was voter ID reform.

The PA voter ID law is from 2010. It’s now making it’s way through the courts. The Federal governernment dragged its feet in assisting FL with its voter purge, which began in 2011.

These laws are both well over a year old, and Democrats are bringing it up now as a scare tactic. There is no “timing” issue, at all, unless you have a reason to let voter fraud continue.
 
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