Paul Ryan!!

[Scott_Lafrance]

Oook! Huffington Post, Georgetown profs.

Rather than citing these questionable opinions which had no foundation when expressed, one may reasonably ask one who poses the opinions what the foundational basis for his/her own conclusions are.

What are they? In what specific ways is Ryan’s plan immoral? No generalities or talking points please. Exact specifics.

Hold your breath…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

:yawn:

While I do think America has too much of a binary system (gov’t and market) and not enough third sector like unions and nonprofits, etc active, you can’t just spew out information the left gave you when Ryan’s own bishop was fine with his budget and Cardinal Dolan was at the very least neutral about it.

And the Catholic school of Salamanca essentially came up with supply and demand.

And everyone who studies economics knows that the School of Salamanca were disciples of Thomas Aquinas.

 

[scipio337]

Oook! Huffington Post, Georgetown profs.

Rather than citing these questionable opinions which had no foundation when expressed, one may reasonably ask one who poses the opinions what the foundational basis for his/her own conclusions are.

What are they? In what specific ways is Ryan’s plan immoral? No generalities or talking points please. Exact specifics.

…First of all, most political policies represent a multitude of choices, budgetary, practical, and as well as principled. The two major parties approach these issues differently, but it would be wrong to infer that one or the other is THE Catholic position. However, when a policy touches a principle itself, as it does in the abortion and homosexual debates, then a clear moral choice exists, devoid of the policy debate of how we accomplish the common good in a particular case. The common good can never involve killing the unborn or the approval of homosexuality. These issues touch directly on the most basic goods of all (life and family) - and thus are of unique and paramount importance. It is not possible, therefore, to claim an equal weight between a candidate’s position on these principles and policy positions on how to achieve certain good ends. Sadly, many have inverted the priority of principle over means. The Holy Father, speaking of the inversion of priorities with respect to life, has stated,

All this is causing a profound change in the way in which life and relationships between people are considered. The fact that legislation in many countries, perhaps even departing from basic principles of their Constitutions, has determined not to punish these practices against life, and even to make them altogether legal, is both a disturbing symptom and a significant cause of grave moral decline. Choices once unanimously considered criminal and rejected by the common moral sense are gradually becoming socially acceptable. … The end result of this is tragic: not only is the fact of the destruction of so many human lives still to be born or in their final stage extremely grave and disturbing, but no less grave and disturbing is the fact that conscience itself, darkened as it were by such widespread conditioning, is finding it increasingly difficult to distinguish between good and evil in what concerns the basic value of human life. [Gospel of Life 3]

To claim the right to abortion, infanticide and euthanasia, and to recognize that right in law, means to attribute to human freedom a perverse and evil significance: that of an absolute power over others and against others. This is the death of true freedom: “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin” (John 8:34). [Gospel of Life 20]

Those who are anti-life and anti-family manifest this darkening of conscience, a darkening which makes their other political decisions inherently untrustworthy. No Catholic can reasonable say "this candidate is anti-life and anti-family, but his social policies are in keeping with Catholic principles."

ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm

Don’t pay any attention to those stretches of imagination, and extraordinary leaps in logic.

 

[maber43]

My wife and I and we are on Medicare, I’ve heard Paul Ryan will destroy Medicare and Obama wants to save it. I’m confused!!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Just price - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Paul Ryan is a Catholic, but he does not represent the traditions of the Church that have been part of Catholic culture for generations. Don’t let him fool you. He wants to sound smart and Catholic by throwing out the name of Thomas Aquinas - but words are cheap. Not matter what he says, his is budget plan is Randian - not Catholic.

St. Thomas Aquinas did not start the guild system. It was in place long before him.

Aquinas was more specific than the above about the “just price”. It was his position that the “just price” is reached when each party to the transaction values the goods received more than the goods given in exchange. That’s precisely why there is an exchange. A stone age knapper values a haunch of venison more than a handful of arrowheads he just made because he can make more arrowheads but isn’t an effective hunter. The hunter values the arrowheads more than the venison because, being an effective hunter but an ineffective knapper, he can always shoot another deer, but he needs arrowheads to do it; arrowheads he can’t make himself.

In other words, the value placed on goods or services by the parties determines the “just price”, which is precisely a free market concept.

Ryan’s plan was vetted by his own bishop, who found in it nothing contrary to Church doctrine.

And it would be a huge mistake to assume there were no “Bain Capitals” in the Middle Ages. There most certainly were, and they paid for a great deal of the great art and architecture we so admire in much of Europe today. Their ability to function turned the threadbare early Middle Ages into the much more prosperous high Middle Ages and Renaissance. Those economies were a lot more complex than latter-day romanticists think they were.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

My wife and I and we are on Medicare, I’ve heard Paul Ryan will destroy Medicare and Obama wants to save it. I’m confused!!!

Obamacare destroys Medicare…fact.

Ryan’s budget will not affect anyone over the age of 55, period.

It will give those 54 and under the option of receiving a voucher so they can go purchase private insurance IF THEY WANT IT, otherwise, they can stay on Medicare, because it will still be available.

 

[SamH]

My wife and I and we are on Medicare, I’ve heard Paul Ryan will destroy Medicare and Obama wants to save it. I’m confused!!!

You are confused because you have it backwards. Ryan wants to save Medicare and Obama is trying to destroy it.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You are confused because you have it backwards. Ryan wants to save Medicare and Obama is trying to destroy it.

No, Obama destroyed it. Obamacare is passed and upheld by SCOTUS. Medicare is destroyed and only the GOP has a plan to save it. Facts are stubborn things.

 

[maber43]

You are confused because you have it backwards. Ryan wants to save Medicare and Obama is trying to destroy it.

Whew…I can relax now. I guess these liberals still telling lies.

 

[maber43]

No, Obama destroyed it. Obamacare is passed and upheld by SCOTUS. Medicare is destroyed and only the GOP has a plan to save it. Facts are stubborn things.

Thanks, I will have to stop listening to these stupid liberals

 

[Elizabeth502]

**It can never be repeated enough. Paul Ryan’s economic philosophy is antithetical to Catholic social teaching. Regardless of what he claims, it is based on the writings of the the atheist, Ayn Rand. **

**It can never be repeated enough, the social policy of the Democratic Platform (Obama + Biden + The Party and its representatives in Congress) is antithetical to Catholic social teaching, as explained by our bishops and elaborated on in many Church documents. **Any Catholic who fails to understand that, and who believes that government support of contraception for the unmarried, abortion on demand, and the deconstruction of the traditional nuclear family does not oppose the Church’s social teaching has no clue about what that social teaching is. It does not equal expansion of government economic programs. Regardless of what they claim, the social policies of the Democratic Party are based on the writings of those whose philosophical framework is the absolute and unbounded sexual licence of the individual. To the devil with the common good. Onward Ayn Rand.

 

[maber43]

Obamacare destroys Medicare…fact.

Ryan’s budget will not affect anyone over the age of 55, period.

It will give those 54 and under the option of receiving a voucher so they can go purchase private insurance IF THEY WANT IT, otherwise, they can stay on Medicare, because it will still be available.

:thumbsup:Thanks!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Whew…I can relax now. I guess these liberals … telling lies.

You’re being redundant…

 

[Ecoclimber]

:yawn:

While I do think America has too much of a binary system (gov’t and market) and not enough third sector like unions and nonprofits, etc active, you can’t just spew out information the left gave you when Ryan’s own bishop was fine with his budget and Cardinal Dolan was at the very least neutral about it.

Hey, wait a minute! Those are statement of facts made by Paul Ryan so deal with it! They are not statements of spewed out by the left as if the left is something evil. There are independents and moderates as well. The right has been hijacked by the extremist. They believe and espouse capitalism until it fails… In a free market, companies that take risks and fail or companies that are not competitive do not get bailed out. As Henry Paulson stated there is a ‘moral hazard’ for gambling and there is no such thing as too big to fail. Unfortunately, he changed his mind and initiated one of the largest bailouts in history of this country.

Too many people have been dummied down by listening to ‘carnival barker’ Rush Limbaugh and get their news from Fux News.

As the French President said it well. “The French Revolution of 1789 hasn’t breathed its last!” “If Europe is a volcano, France is the crater of all European revolutions!” “Vive la France!”, “Vive la République!”, “Vive la Résistance!”

“Look, we have to smash this prejudice that the rich are useful just because they’re rich.”

It’s a vision of society. Just as we won’t allow poverty in our society, we won’t allow the hyper-accumulation of riches. Money should not be accumulated but circulated, invested, spent for the common good."

Fat Cat Tax on the Rich
Will rich people flee France, as his critics warn? “If they do, no problem. Bye bye,” he smiled.

Capitalist propaganda always managed to make people think the markets’ interests were humanity’s interests." For too long people have been made to feel that they were some kind of drain or problem for expecting free education, free healthcare or being able to stop working when they were old and spent."

 

[Ridgerunner]

My wife and I and we are on Medicare, I’ve heard Paul Ryan will destroy Medicare and Obama wants to save it. I’m confused!!!

Obama is taking $716 billion out of Medicare funding to finance Obamacare. Obamacare is essentially a transfer of wealth from the middle/middle, upper/middle classes and the poor to the lower middle class. But, depending on how much insurance costs increase due to mandates, even the lower middle classes might lose. Certainly, some will because 17 million of them will be crowded into Medicaid.

The chief actuary for Medicare says that by 2022 under Obamacare, Medicare reimursement will be lower than Medicaid reimbursement. If that happens, it will make Medicare a worthless program for seniors because providers already are resistant to accepting Medicaid because it’s often less than their costs.

Obamacare also gets rid of Medicare Advantage entirely. About 1/3 of seniors have Medicare Advantage. It was scheduled by Obamacare to go out of existence before the election, but Obama put it off until after the election because he didn’t want seniors to get the bad news before the election. That’s just a fact, and nobody argues otherwise.

Ryan’s plan, (which is not necessarily Romney’s plan, which one needs to remember) keeps Medicare the same as it is now for those who are on it and for those who will be on it by 2023. No change. It will, however, change it to a reimbursement system with more reimbursement to those with lower incomes, less for those with high incomes. Those presently under age 55 will have the choice whether to spend their reimbursement for classic medicare or for insurance of their choosing. There is nothing in Ryan’s plan to reduce the reimbursement to medical providers.

Ryan worked out his plan together with a very liberal Democrat, Ron Wyden. So it’s really the “Ryan/Wyden plan”, not just the “Ryan plan”. Their objective was to save Medicare from its oncoming demise in about 2026, but to reduce the cost and extending its life by requiring more contribution from the wealthy to their own health plans and by giving younger people some choices.

But again, there is no certainty that Romney will have quite the same plan. My limited understanding of Romney’s plan is that it would be similar to the Ryan/Wyden plan, but have more funding to it and would therefore be more costly to the nation.

 

[maber43]

Obama is taking $716 billion out of Medicare funding to finance Obamacare. Obamacare is essentially a transfer of wealth from the middle/middle, upper/middle classes and the poor to the lower middle class. But, depending on how much insurance costs increase due to mandates, even the lower middle classes might lose. Certainly, some will because 17 million of them will be crowded into Medicaid.

The chief actuary for Medicare says that by 2022 under Obamacare, Medicare reimursement will be lower than Medicaid reimbursement. If that happens, it will make Medicare a worthless program for seniors because providers already are resistant to accepting Medicaid because it’s often less than their costs.

Obamacare also gets rid of Medicare Advantage entirely. About 1/3 of seniors have Medicare Advantage. It was scheduled by Obamacare to go out of existence before the election, but Obama put it off until after the election because he didn’t want seniors to get the bad news before the election. That’s just a fact, and nobody argues otherwise.

Ryan’s plan, (which is not necessarily Romney’s plan, which one needs to remember) keeps Medicare the same as it is now for those who are on it and for those who will be on it by 2023. No change. It will, however, change it to a reimbursement system with more reimbursement to those with lower incomes, less for those with high incomes. Those presently under age 55 will have the choice whether to spend their reimbursement for classic medicare or for insurance of their choosing. There is nothing in Ryan’s plan to reduce the reimbursement to medical providers.

Ryan worked out his plan together with a very liberal Democrat, Ron Wyden. So it’s really the “Ryan/Wyden plan”, not just the “Ryan plan”. Their objective was to save Medicare from its oncoming demise in about 2026, but to reduce the cost and extending its life by requiring more contribution from the wealthy to their own health plans and by giving younger people some choices.

But again, there is no certainty that Romney will have quite the same plan. My limited understanding of Romney’s plan is that it would be similar to the Ryan/Wyden plan, but have more funding to it and would therefore be more costly to the nation.

Thanks RidgeRunner!

 

[mary_bobo]

:yawn::yawn:

Hey, wait a minute! Those are statement of facts made by Paul Ryan so deal with it! They are not statements of spewed out by the left as if the left is something evil. There are independents and moderates as well. The right has been hijacked by the extremist. They believe and espouse capitalism until it fails… In a free market, companies that take risks and fail or companies that are not competitive do not get bailed out. As Henry Paulson stated there is a ‘moral hazard’ for gambling and there is no such thing as too big to fail. Unfortunately, he changed his mind and initiated one of the largest bailouts in history of this country.

Too many people have been dummied down by listening to ‘carnival barker’ Rush Limbaugh and get their news from Fux News.

As the French President said it well. “The French Revolution of 1789 hasn’t breathed its last!” “If Europe is a volcano, France is the crater of all European revolutions!” “Vive la France!”, “Vive la République!”, “Vive la Résistance!”

“Look, we have to smash this prejudice that the rich are useful just because they’re rich.”

It’s a vision of society. Just as we won’t allow poverty in our society, we won’t allow the hyper-accumulation of riches. Money should not be accumulated but circulated, invested, spent for the common good."

Fat Cat Tax on the Rich
Will rich people flee France, as his critics warn? “If they do, no problem. Bye bye,” he smiled.

Capitalist propaganda always managed to make people think the markets’ interests were humanity’s interests." For too long people have been made to feel that they were some kind of drain or problem for expecting free education, free healthcare or being able to stop working when they were old and spent."

:yawn::yawn:

 

[DeSanto]

So, if you worked your whole life and were successful, and then the goverment wanted to take more than half of what you rightfully earned, who wouldn’t use all legal means to pay less in taxes?

So, if you worked hard your whole life and were never able to get ahead or were less “successful” and the government wanted you to pay more percentage wise than a billionaire has to, from what you have earned, woudn’t you use all legal means to provide for you’re family? What is your idea of success, how many treasures you can build up here on earth?

If its ok for Romney why not your average, hard working person. Are you implying people on food stamps don’t work hard enough? That is just so insulting. Some are working two and three jobs and still have trouble keeping their homes, paying for necessities, feeding and clothing their children. And must go without luxuries like oh, lets say…health insurance for example. I don’t have a problem if Romney wants to take advantage of the system, I have a problem with people demonizing the less fortunate for doing the same thing. Do you think they are proud they have to ask for help feeding their children? It’s like kicking somebody when they’re down. At least the money they spend goes into OUR economy not some other countries. Taking polls on if people on food stamps should get to have televisions or microwaves or an xbox that was probably a present given by some kids grandparent. How disgusting. I doubt anyone on food stamps have multi million dollar homes with ten cars and jets and Swiss bank accounts or accounts at Tiffany’s. How can you compare the two? I am simply asking for more compassion when debating economic realities. People get struck down with sickness, disabilities, single parents are suffering, the elderly need support, peoples entire savings got wiped out in the recession. These are the people taking advantage of the legal means at their disposal to survive. They are not lazy, they are disadvantaged. They worked hard all their lives and had to sacrifice much. How nice in a country such as ours that because poor people can get help they are able to afford something like a television. Would you be proud to live in a country that says “Hey, if you can’t even feed your children, then you AND your children should suffer without airconditioning?” So basically if you need assistance you should be ashamed of yourself? I would be ashamed to live in luxury while so many others suffered. It just feels wrong to complain when God has blessed me with so much. I don’t need luxury to feel rich. People on assistance do work very hard, and they do pay taxes. And their taxes go the same place yours do.

 

[LisaA]

So what? Who is more selfish, a person who risks and works hard and desires to keep what he earns, or a person who risks nothing, chases nothing, produces nothing, and demands to have a portion of that which he hasn’t earned?

THe selfish person is the one who thinks that he is entitled to the fruit of someone else’s labor…and the politician who enables that sort of thinking.

Bravo Scott! Why is it somehow “noble” to extract money from one group to give it to another? It’s so easy to spend OPM isn’t it?

Lisa

 

[SamH]

So, if you worked hard your whole life and were never able to get ahead or were less “successful” and the government wanted you to pay more percentage wise than a billionaire has to, from what you have earned, woudn’t you use all legal means to provide for you’re family? What is your idea of success, how many treasures you can build up here on earth?.

You do realize that is what Obama is doing with Medicare and Medicaid - right?