Paul VI on contraception for nuns in the Congo

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All of these sources that claim Paul VI gave approve NEVER cite a document. And when we look at the earliest assertions on this subject, from the 1960’s, no one says that the Pope approved it. In fact, the earliest texts occur BEFORE Paul VI became Pope.

Also, there is no evidence that these nuns in the Congo actually used contraception. Three theologians opined that such a usage would be moral.

Mere contraception can be used in cases of rape; this usage is indirect, and so not intrinsically evil. The problem with the nuns in the Congo scenario is that oral contraceptives are abortifacient. This becomes particularly problematic when widespread use of oral contraceptives by sexually active women is proposed as a safeguard against birth defects. We can reasonably anticipate that many prenatals would be killed by this use of abortifacient contraception.

Pope Francis was clear that abortion is not an option for dealing with birth defects (caused by the Zika virus or whatever else). Therefore, abortifacient contraception is also not an option.
No document must be cited. The pope does not owe the general public any visibility to documents contrary to our American view of the freedom of information. The pope said it happened. That is about as official as it gets. Unless you think the pope lied or knows less about this than all the others trying to bend what he said to thier own view…
You cannot be logical with these hair splitting ideas. The pope said what he meant and meant what he said. Period.
It contradicts our understanding of dogma. But let’s not fit a square peg in around hole here.
 
No document must be cited. The pope does not owe the general public any visibility to documents contrary to our American view of the freedom of information. The pope said it happened. That is about as official as it gets. Unless you think the pope lied or knows less about this than all the others trying to bend what he said to thier own view…
You cannot be logical with these hair splitting ideas. The pope said what he meant and meant what he said. Period.
It contradicts our understanding of dogma.
Huh?

Contradicts our understanding of dogma? What?
**
Not.**

Whether the Pope was mistaken about who spoke about Nuns -who were defending against rape (not of course married persons…)-- or not - is a moot matter.

The Pope was talking off the cuff and in a very tired state - noting what he recalled to be true historically in that case - but he can make a mistake there. I am not saying he did or not.

It does not matter in *any *case.

Nothing changes in the Teaching of the Pope …the Teaching of the Church …regarding Contraception.

It is to be considered a definitive and *irreformable * teaching.
 
Huh?

Contradicts our understanding of dogma? What?
**
Not.**

Whether the Pope was mistaken about who spoke about Nuns who were defending against rape or not - is a moot matter.

The Pope was talking off the cuff and in a very tired state - noting what he recalled to be true historically in that case - but he can make a mistake there. I am not saying he did or not.

It does not matter in *any *case.

Nothing changes in the Teaching of the Pope …the Teaching of the Church …regarding Contraception.

It is to be considered a definitive and *irreformable * teaching.
The church cannot change this teaching.
The pope can indeed be wrong. He was not invoking infallibility. Neither would a pope who gave permission for abc to be given to nuns in the Congo.

As Catholics we should have the ability to say a pope, any pope is wrong in matters such as these, there is no need to cast him as less informed or media savvy than you or I.
 
there is no need to cast him as less informed or media savvy than you or I.
a…he himself notes that interviews are not his thing…

And sure he can be misinformed about some distant historical event that he remembers hearing about - but did not know he heard wrong back then.
 
I am old enough to remember what went on in the 1960’s. I remember that many Catholics were hoping against hope that Pope Paul VI would approve the pill for birth control. The Commission on Birth Control recommended that he approve it. People were angry, disappointed, and shocked when he finally came out with his birth control ban, only approving it for medical reasons.

I also remember hearing the news about the nuns who had permission to take the pill because they were in danger of rape. This is not fiction.
 
a…he himself notes that interviews are not his thing…

And sure he can be misinformed about some distant historical event that he remembers hearing about - but did not know he heard wrong back then.
Are you suggesting he is forced to give the interviews?
One need only read them to understand how adept and savvy he is. The answer to the question about a return trip to Argentina was answered with skills any politician would envy. He spoke only about the people of Mexico at length. He sidestepped the question. The pope has instituted these interviews as part of his pontificate.

The Vatican has confirmed he was speaking about artificial contraception. Which we did not need them to clarify really.

One could also and more logically assume he knows more about what happened than any other person alive on the planet. Save perhaps BXVI
 
Are you suggesting he is forced to give the interviews?
No I am noting what HE has told us…
The Vatican has confirmed he was speaking about artificial contraception. Which we did not need them to clarify really.
So? Yes of course he was talking about contraception in terms of the nuns…Who has said otherwise? The matter remains that it was an off the cuff remark - and can be honestly mistaken as the historical details.
One could also and more logically assume he knows more about what happened than any other person alive on the planet. Save perhaps BXVI
Any why?

Do you really think the Pope has time to research all the history of what happened here or there? He was speaking off the cuff and relied on what he remembered was the case. That does not mean his knowledge was correct at to the details of that case. You assume too much.

One Professor in an article in the NCRegister just noted that it was held by theologians at the time regarding the defense of the nuns - and it was assumed that the Pope (Bl. Paul VI) gave tacit approval to their theological opinion on the matter. So if such was the case - the current Pope recalling what he heard in the past regarding the case may have heard that the Pope had permitted such back then in that particular case…and thus responded how he did in his comments there.

But in any case -as I noted it does not matter in the end for this is a case of nuns being raped…and needing self defense…

Tis a moot issue.
 
No I am noting what HE has told us…

So? Yes of course he was talking about contraception in terms of the nuns…Who has said otherwise? The matter remains that it was an off the cuff remark - and can be honestly mistaken as the historical details.

Any why?

Do you really think the Pope has time to research all the history of what happened here or there? He was speaking off the cuff and relied on what he remembered was the case. That does not mean his knowledge was correct at to the details of that case. You assume too much.

One Professor in an article in the NCRegister just noted that it was held by theologians at the time regarding the defense of the nuns - and it was assumed that the Pope (Bl. Paul VI) gave tacit approval to their theological opinion on the matter. So if such was the case - the current Pope recalling what he heard in the past regarding the case may have heard that the Pope had permitted such back then in that particular case…and thus responded how he did in his comments there.

But in any case -as I noted it does not matter in the end for this is a case of nuns being raped…and needing self defense…

Tis a moot issue.
Well he had more ability to know what happened than we do. Anyone really.

Look it is quite clear he said it happened. You are free to think he is wrong.
 
Well he had more ability to know what happened than we do. Anyone really.

Look it is quite clear he said it happened. You are free to think he is wrong.
Sure…when he gets back home he could ask someone to research the matter if he realized that his memory was not correct or in question as to the details.

I did not say he was wrong in his knowledge of the event.

As to who approved of what and how that could require more research to get at the exact details. As I noted the professor in that article today noted what he noted about the details of the matter.

Do not mistake the Popes memory (in the same interview he actually made a joke about his mistaken memory about another matter saying along the lines of- “Old age doesn’t come on its own”…) for his studied research into the matter.

I noted what I noted…and that is well…what I noted.
 
Sure…when he gets back home he could ask someone to research the matter if he realized that his memory was not correct or in question as to the details.

I did not say he was wrong.

I noted what I noted…and that is well…what I noted.
Seeing the media storm behind this I would think if he misspoke he can clarify, much like a Vatican spokesman has clarified that yes, the pope was speaking of ABC. In the same interview regarding Zika.

So, I guess we have to take him at his word for what happened in the Congo until he tells us otherwise.
 
I believe our Pope is correct that nuns were allowed to use birth control in the Congo to avoid pregnancy in the event of rape. One would think he would know since he is the Pope. First of all, the medication used was designed to inhibit ovulation. Secondly the nuns were not sexually active. This situation in no way implies an exception for contracepting.
 
So, I guess we have to take him at his word for what happened in the Congo until he tells us otherwise.
Huh?

It really does not matter much what the exact details of that case was -(as I went into above).

And it is not a matter of not “taking him at his word” to note that he can mis-remember (or mis-know) about those obscure long ago events…

As HE joked about his mistaken memory on another matter in that same interview:

“Old age doesn’t come on its own.”
 
I believe our Pope is correct that nuns were allowed to use birth control in the Congo to avoid pregnancy in the event of rape. One would think he would know since he is the Pope. First of all, the medication used was designed to inhibit ovulation. Secondly the nuns were not sexually active. This situation in no way implies an exception for contracepting.
Being Pope does not give one infallible knowledge or memory (as to the details). He was not Pope then and may be going on memories of what was talked about back then in that obscure case.

But yes your correct that it is a different matter than married persons using contraception (a grave sin).
 
Huh?

It really does not matter much what the exact details of that case was -(as I went into above).

And it is not a matter of not “taking him at his word” to note that he can mis-remember (or mis-know) about those obscure long ago events…

As HE joked about his mistaken memory on another matter in that same interview:

“Old age doesn’t come on its own.”
This is getting ridiculous. He said what he said. I understand it will cause much confusion and reactions.
He did not misremember if he did, he will be quick to correct it as it has caused a firestorm.

So…

Waiting for his correction.
Until then, I’ll accept his statement.
 
He did not misremember
And you know how?
Waiting for his correction.
Until then, I’ll accept his statement.
Statement? …off the cuff remarks from memory is not a statement…

Again it does not really matter that much…(not something needing any clarification …one does not clarify every mistaken thing one might say in an off the cuff remark!..the Vatican is not reading this thread…)

Tis a moot matter.
 
I’d like His Holiness to clarify this.

Anyone with even one day of study in moral theology would recognize that the two situations aren’t even in the same ballpark, let alone comparable from a moral standpoint.

Situation A: Nuns in the Congo may or may not have been given permission to use oral contraceptives because they were being systematically raped. In this case, the contraceptive is NOT being used to prevent conception through a loving act of marriage. Rather, it was being used more as a defense mechanism than anything. Morally speaking, it would be more similar to using mace to ward off an attacker. There’s nothing immoral at all about using mace to ward off an attacker. There’s something gravely immoral about using mace on someone who is doing nothing wrong just to get a laugh.

In other words, whether or not Pope Paul VI gave them formal permission to use contraceptives is beside the point. Basic logic and moral reasoning tells us that there would be no moral issue in using contraceptives in this case.

What if the contraceptive in question was/is abortafacient? That’s a different question for a different day. However, we have to be careful when discussing this. For instance, Fr. Nicanor Austriaco, O.P., published an article in the Winter 2007 edition of National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly arguing that Plan B was not abortafacient, and therefore, the Connecticut bishops were justified in approving its use in Connecticut hospitals, even Catholic ones, to comply with a law that was passed on October 1, 2007. Others, however, have argued against Austriaco’s position. The point is that there are reputable scientists and moral theologians suggesting that Plan B (as opposed to specific abortion-inducing drugs, such as Ella and RU-486) is not abortafacient, based on scientific study of what the hormone levonorgestrel does to the woman’s body.

Situation B: The pope, seemingly, is giving tacit approval to using contraceptives to combat the zika virus. Again, morally speaking, these two situations are not at all similar. Arguing that contraception should be permitted in this case is taking a consequentialist approach, which, again, any first year moral theology student could tell you is wholly incompatible with a Catholic understanding of morality. But, leaving that aside, in this situation, there is a very easy solution…abstain! Believe it or not, you won’t die from lack of sex! I’m 34, a virgin, and a consecrated celibate. I’m still very much alive!

In situation A, contraception is being used as a defense against an attack. In situation B, it’s being suggested as a means to an end, being able to still have all the sex I want without any of the negative consequences. Again, every first year morality student knows the basic principle that the ends do not justify the means.

I love our Holy Father, and I will follow him, be obedient to him, and faithful to him. But, I hope he clarifies this statement, or we see the entirety of what he said in it’s context. Certainly, I give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s the Vicar of Christ! But, to be sure, at least as the MSM is reporting it, this statement needs clarification.
 
People say the nuns used pills as self-defense. The pill doesnt fight agaisnt the sperm to enter the egg, it fights the egg not to implement in the uterus. Therefore, there is a fecund egg (aka human being in the most simpliest form) so using the pill will cause you to commit an abortion… how is this OK? I appreciate some (name removed by moderator)ut on this too. Thanks.
It can be argued that the abortifacient nature of some drugs raises moral questions about their use in the “nun scenario”. Even if this act is immoral, it would not be the immoral act of contraception, but rather the immorality (if any) may derive from the potential consequences of the act.

If the question were instead - may a woman, fearing rape, “wear” a barrier device which impedes semen - the answer would be, “yes, certainly”. Such an act (in the event of rape) is not the immoral act of contraception.
 
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