Paul's letter to the Corinthians: Speaking Tongues

[dprewett]

Paul teaches one gift of tongues with a two fold application:

1. It builds up the body (church)as whole with a phropetic word…which needs a valid
   translator to be interpeted and.
2. Paryer tongues which is for use in pirvate prayer…to build up the individual…which in
   reality also builds up the body.

The lord has seen fit to give me the gift of prayer tongues…it has done wonders to my prayer life…it does sound like gerberish to me…I have no idea what I’m parying for…
but the spirit knows I’m sure.

God loves you…God bless

It is my understanding that Paul has many warnings on this and one of them was that the speaking in tounges must have a meaning that humans can understand. It seems to me that God uses things like this to give more understanding not confussion. Also if you do not know what you are saying how are you sure this is from God and not more devious sources.

 

[dprewett]

I am so glad that someone brought up this topic. Recently I was introduced to a group of people at church (Catholic church) who belong to a community called People of Praise. They invited my husband and I to a meeting held at a community center where they talked about the power of the holy spirit, etc. We were then separated into groups, men and women, and a discussion of faith ensued. At the end of the discussion they asked if they could pray over me and I said yes and then they all broke into “tongues” or gibberish, whichever you wish to call it. I was extremely intimidated and confused. But the experience as a whole was very uplifted and positive. But, then, the entire community gathered together to sing hymns and give testimonials and during this time almost all of the people broke into tongues. I certainly did not and if this is a gift so that people can speak in languages to communicate with others, why would they have to speak in tongues when we all spoke English. What am I missing? This is all new to me so I don’t want to seem skeptical, but I am just confused over the entire experience.

The gift of tongues was given to the apostles to spread the good news to foreign lands and they were understood. I would stay away from this group. I thought this sort of thing was in decline for Catholics.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Pardon me. But speaking in real languages occurred at Pentecost. This is not the speaking in tongues which St. Paul wrote about.

Some hold your position, but from the writings of the Early Church I don’t see a distinction. What makes you say there is a difference?

 

[Scardinoz]

Here are some quotes from extra-biblical saints. I hope they contribute to the discussion. I underlined points that were interesting to me.

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God. (Irenaeus, c.180)

This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, often discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed. (Novatian, c.200-c.258)

Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer – only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God. Here, then, is my frank avowal for any one who cares to require it. (Tertullian, c.207)

He became possessed of a spirit, and suddenly began to rave in a kind of ecstatic trance, and to babble in a jargon, prophesying in a manner contrary to the custom of the Church which had been handed down by tradition from the earliest times. (Eusebius, d.c.339)

This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more? (John Chrysostom, 344-407)

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. (Augustine of Hippo, 354-430)

For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles…secondly prophets…thirdly teachers…next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases… and gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues. Clearly these are the Church’s agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them. (Hilary of Poitiers, 360)

And another night – God knows, I do not, whether within me or beside me – most words which I heard and could not understand, except at the end of the speech it was represented thus: ‘He who gave his life for you, he it is who speaks within you.’ And thus I awoke, joyful. (Patrick of Ireland, 387–493)

And on a second occasion I saw Him praying within me, and I was as it were, inside my own body , and I heard Him above me—that is, above my inner self. He was praying powerfully with sighs. And in the course of this I was astonished and wondering, and I pondered who it could be who was praying within me. But at the end of the prayer it was revealed to me that it was the Spirit. And so I awoke and remembered the Apostle’s words: “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we know not how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for utterance.” And again: “The Lord our advocate intercedes for us.” (Patrick of Ireland, 387–493)

 

[wisdomseeker]

Here are some quotes from extra-biblical saints. I hope they contribute to the discussion. I underlined points that were interesting to me.

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God. (Irenaeus, c.180)

This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, often discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed. (Novatian, c.200-c.258)

Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer – only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from amongst those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God. Here, then, is my frank avowal for any one who cares to require it. (Tertullian, c.207)

He became possessed of a spirit, and suddenly began to rave in a kind of ecstatic trance, and to babble in a jargon, prophesying in a manner contrary to the custom of the Church which had been handed down by tradition from the earliest times. (Eusebius, d.c.339)

This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, and now do so no more? (John Chrysostom, 344-407)

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues”, which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance”. These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. (Augustine of Hippo, 354-430)

For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles…secondly prophets…thirdly teachers…next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases… and gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues. Clearly these are the Church’s agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them. (Hilary of Poitiers, 360)

And another night – God knows, I do not, whether within me or beside me – most words which I heard and could not understand, except at the end of the speech it was represented thus: ‘He who gave his life for you, he it is who speaks within you.’ And thus I awoke, joyful. (Patrick of Ireland, 387–493)

And on a second occasion I saw Him praying within me, and I was as it were, inside my own body , and I heard Him above me—that is, above my inner self. He was praying powerfully with sighs. And in the course of this I was astonished and wondering, and I pondered who it could be who was praying within me. But at the end of the prayer it was revealed to me that it was the Spirit. And so I awoke and remembered the Apostle’s words: “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we know not how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for utterance.” And again: “The Lord our advocate intercedes for us.” (Patrick of Ireland, 387–493)

I see nothing in here that testifies to such language is the one used today by charismatics. none whatsoever.

 

[usemelord]

I posted a reply on this thread about an hour ago, but it looks like it never registered, so I’ll try to recreate it here again. Anyway, one thing we can all agree upon is that speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Spirit, albeit the least of the gifts. When I was much, much younger (prior to becoming Catholic five years ago), I was given a translation of the New Testament written by J.B. Phillips entitled “The New Testament in Modern English for Schools” which I find is really quite well written and much, much easier to understand than, let’s say, the King James. That said, allow me to quote from the J.B. Phillips translation what is said about speaking in tongues in First Corinthians, Chapter 14; Verse 2, “The man who speaks in a ‘tongue’ addresses not men (for no one understands a word he says) but God;” Verse 9, “So, in your case, unless you make intelligible sounds with your ‘tongue’ how can anyone know what you are talking about? You might just as well be addressing an empty room!;” Verse 11, “But if the sounds of the speaker’s voice mean nothing to me, I am a foreigner to him, and he is a foreigner to me.;” Verse 16, “…if you are blessing God with your spirit, how can those who are ungifted say amen to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are talking about?;” Verse 19, “…when I am in church I would rather speak five words with my mind (which might teach something to other people) than ten thousand words in a ‘tongue’ which nobody understands;” Verse 23, “…if at a full church meeting you are all speaking with tongues and men come in who are both uninstructed and without faith, will they not say that you are insane?;” Verse 26, “…whenever you meet let everyone be ready to contribute a psalm, a piece of teaching, a spiritual truth, or a ‘tongue’ WITH AN INTERPRETER (emphasis added);” Verse 28, “If you have no interpreter, then let the speaker with a ‘tongue’ keep silent in the church and speak only to himself and God;” As someone who has always been somewhat skeptical of the “motives” of those who speak in tongues, I still nevertheless try to give them, shall we say, the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I’m really a bit jealous (in a Christian sort of way, of course) that the Holy Spirit has not come upon me in such a way. Maybe it will happen once I relinquish control.

 

[juliamajor]

The gift of tongues was given to the apostles to spread the good news to foreign lands and they were understood. I would stay away from this group. I thought this sort of thing was in decline for Catholics.

You better get used to it.In ten years the majority of Catholics will be hispanic- the renewal is very big among hispanics and other ethnic groups. it just doesn’t seem very american does it

 

[angelforce]

Hi everyone!
My experience with the gift of Tongues is as a gift from the Holy Spirit. One way is as a personal prayer language. Another way is as a gift of intercession. Oftentimes if I witness an accident on the road, I’ll experience a gift of tears and a great need to pray in tongues, until the Holy Spirit releases me from that need. Scripture says the Holy Spirit prays in us in groanings we don’t understand. Paul also said he prayed in tongues more than anyone. The reason an interpretor is needed is when, in a group, aa a particular gift, it is to build up the body and it does not build up the body if a person rambles, and no one interprets. It is under the control of the person who has the gift, so wisdom is needed. It is a wonderful prayer language to press on through the many distractions we experience, to a place af listening to God, who is always calling to us to reveal Himself. No one is perfect and there will be times when people will express this gift inapproriately, but the Lord calls us to practice charity. Heaven knows we can be quick to judge something we don’t understand, myself included!
Sincerely, Angelforce :angel1:

 

[Reuben_J]

I am so glad that someone brought up this topic. Recently I was introduced to a group of people at church (Catholic church) who belong to a community called People of Praise. They invited my husband and I to a meeting held at a community center where they talked about the power of the holy spirit, etc. We were then separated into groups, men and women, and a discussion of faith ensued. At the end of the discussion they asked if they could pray over me and I said yes and then they all broke into “tongues” or gibberish, whichever you wish to call it. I was extremely intimidated and confused. But the experience as a whole was very uplifted and positive. But, then, the entire community gathered together to sing hymns and give testimonials and during this time almost all of the people broke into tongues. I certainly did not and if this is a gift so that people can speak in languages to communicate with others, why would they have to speak in tongues when we all spoke English. What am I missing? This is all new to me so I don’t want to seem skeptical, but I am just confused over the entire experience.

If there is any chance that this group organizes a retreat or seminar, go for it. Your questions will be answered there. Meanwhile, ask to speak with any of their leaders, preferably a very mature one, and talk with her/him. It would be good to bring along your husband as well.

God bless you and may you found what you seek.

 

[Reuben_J]

It is my understanding that Paul has many warnings on this and one of them was that the speaking in tounges must have a meaning that humans can understand. It seems to me that God uses things like this to give more understanding not confussion. Also if you do not know what you are saying how are you sure this is from God and not more devious sources.

There are two types of gift of tongues that are often experienced by those who have experienced them. They are (1) prayer tongue or singing in tongue or singing in the spirit, and (2) speaking in tongue.

Prayer tongue is for prayer. It builds up the person who prays. Have you prayed silently or are your prayers confined only to the vocalized type? When we pray silently, we know what we pray because the thought is in our heart. It is just that we don’t vocalize it. In prayer tongue it is the same. We know what is in our thought except that that sound comes out of our mouth which we do not understand. In Roman 8:26 this may be attributed to the Holy Spirit who helps us to pray when we lack of words ourselves but the Father knows what they are. The idea is to sustain prayer.

Rom8:26 NAB
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.

Gift of tongue is to build the body. It is a prophecy actually and therefore must be interpreted. One speaks, another interprets it so that the assembly hears and understands the message. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit and it is not for any of us to say that it does not happen today. The only question is : when it happens, whether it is authentic or not.

It could never lead to confusion as the Holy Spirit is not God of confusion but of order.

 

[sablouwho]

Prayer tongue is for prayer. It builds up the person who prays. Have you prayed silently or are your prayers confined only to the vocalized type? When we pray silently, we know what we pray because the thought is in our heart. It is just that we don’t vocalize it. In prayer tongue it is the same. We know what is in our thought except that that sound comes out of our mouth which we do not understand. In Roman 8:26 this may be attributed to **the Holy Spirit who helps us to pray when we lack of words ourselves **but the Father knows what they are. The idea is to sustain prayer.

Regarding the first piece of bolded text – my personal experience with this type of tongues is a little different in that I generally do not know what is in my thoughts when I pray in that way. As the second piece of bolded text explains, it is precisely because I lack the words that I find the prayer tongue to be such a gift. It is a comfort to me that I can pray even when I don’t know what to pray for, or find myself speechless, yet needing to pray.

On a separate note–some posters up-thread have described this type of prayer tongues as gibberish. I have no doubt that some prayer tongues does sound this way, and I have heard that some people “fake it” in order to fit in, in situations where there is pressure to demonstrate that one has this gift. I would definitely imagine that some of it really does sound like gobble-de-gook!

However, I have found in my own case that it doesn’t seem to be like that. At times, I have paid attention to the actual sounds and what I notice there is definitely a “vocabulary” of words. And, where before I even had tongues, I was able to make “nonsensical sounds” that would be classified as gibberish or gobble-de-gook, I note that since I have had tongues, I am unable to make such nonsensical sounds. Whenever I try to do the “nonsense”, instead, tongues is what comes out.

Of course, that is just my own experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Byzman]

I am sorry, but I must say that I am very skeptical to this so called speaking or praying in tounges that is only understood by God and His angels. Yes, I believe that it is a true gift of the Holy Spirit, but I see it as a gift of speaking a foreign language, so that it can be used to preach to others of that same language. As for the praying of an angelic language…I am very and will remain skeptical for a long time to come. Lets think about it for a second…and I know that there will be some on these forums that will come at me defending why they think they pray in tongues…but where was this gift before the 1900’s? Why did it disappear? Some may say it was always there, it just wasn’t focused on as it should have been. Than why did it reappear? Some will say that there is a need for it now. Than I ask for what?..because some Pentecostal Protestants decided to fall and roll around, going crazy, not maintaining order in church. Believe me, I been to a couple of protestant communities where this happens. Why did this phenomena begin “again” in a protestant denomination? Wait a second, than we have the Oneness Pentecostals, who are psuedo-Christians, that also share this “phenomena.” They are not even baptized in the Spirit, for they baptize invalidly, baptizing in the “name of Jesus Christ.” They don’t even believe in the Trinity, but yet claim to speak and pray in tongues. How can they claim to have the Spirit when they dont even believe in the Holy Spirit existing distinctly for all time. So, now we have confusion as to who is really praying in tongues. Than we have the Charismatic Catholics(no pun intended to those who come from this background), all of a sudden the Pentecostal Protestants are claiming this gift, so the Catholics also decide to claim and experience this “phenomena.” Why the late surge of experiencing these gifts among the protestants, do Catholics decide to experience it? The Catholics decided to experience this in the late 60’s, early 70’s, after the changes of the Mass, but the protestants were doing this early on in the 20th Century? Was something wrong with the Tridentine Mass? See why I dont believe this is truly happening…to much confusion that the Holy Spirit is bringing and stirring up.

 

[Reuben_J]

Regarding the first piece of bolded text – my personal experience with this type of tongues is a little different in that I generally do not know what is in my thoughts when I pray in that way. As the second piece of bolded text explains, it is precisely because I lack the words that I find the prayer tongue to be such a gift. It is a comfort to me that I can pray even when I don’t know what to pray for, or find myself speechless, yet needing to pray.

On a separate note–some posters up-thread have described this type of prayer tongues as gibberish. I have no doubt that some prayer tongues does sound this way, and I have heard that some people “fake it” in order to fit in, in situations where there is pressure to demonstrate that one has this gift. I would definitely imagine that some of it really does sound like gobble-de-gook!

However, I have found in my own case that it doesn’t seem to be like that. At times, I have paid attention to the actual sounds and what I notice there is definitely a “vocabulary” of words. And, where before I even had tongues, I was able to make “nonsensical sounds” that would be classified as gibberish or gobble-de-gook, I note that since I have had tongues, I am unable to make such nonsensical sounds. Whenever I try to do the “nonsense”, instead, tongues is what comes out.

Of course, that is just my own experience. Your mileage may vary.

You are right bro, we do not know exactly the words that we pray while praying tongue. I tried to explain this thing perhaps to an average audience who may lack the experience in this gift. The example might not be effective enough but hope they get the idea.

True, it can range from we know our thought to where we just don’t know what to pray. That’s what it means by Rom 8:26. Then the Holy Spirit takes over, and in communion with our thought and our speech, the Spirit leads our spirit to pray to God.

An example - you ask me to pray with you for a better relationship with your wife. I can start with saying what you have told me and ask God for grace and blessing but then again it may not be the appropriate prayer or that there may be important issue that is left out either because you have not told me enough of your history or I just don’t know how to proceed. This is when tongue becomes very powerful prayer because the Holy Spirit knows what we really need and want. Even then, we know our intention even if we do not know our thought exactly.

Another example is when we pray to praise God. Some of us can cite all the litany of praise to God even up to five minutes. Others would unable to continue after twenty seconds. Again tongue comes in and praising God continues.

These are words that we cannot understand and it may sound funny but I think it is not right to despise it outright.

You are right too, each individual experience varies though the essence is the same.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

…and I know that there will be some on these forums that will come at me defending why they think they pray in tongues.

No, not at all. Why should we? Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Please carry on.

There is enough check and balance in the Forum’s rule for us to continue discussing in a charitable manner and with the love of God.

may God bless you.

 

[grannymh]

Paul teaches one gift of tongues with a two fold application:

1. It builds up the body (church)as whole with a phropetic word…which needs a valid
   translator to be interpeted and.
2. Paryer tongues which is for use in pirvate prayer…to build up the individual…which in
   reality also builds up the body.

The lord has seen fit to give me the gift of prayer tongues…it has done wonders to my prayer life…it does sound like gerberish to me…I have no idea what I’m parying for…
but the spirit knows I’m sure.

God loves you…God bless

It is wonderful to hear someone say that the gift of prayer tongues has done wonders for one’s prayer life. That is exactly what St. Paul is trying to tell us.

The gift of praying in tongues can be used for special intentions. For example, one can pray for a sick friend. One’s intention would be similar to a prayer in English. Then one yields to the gift of prayer tongues knowing that the Holy Spirit is praying within you so to speak. In other words, one is letting the “expert” offer the prayer which is needed. And yes, you will not know exactly what God’s will is, but you are praying for it in the case of your friend.

Prayer tongues can be used to praise God. Prayer tongues can be used in situations where you need help knowing what to do or say. Prayers tongues can be calming in traffic. Or like you are doing, one can give the prayer tongues to God with no strings attached.

Blessings,
a Charismatic granny

Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

 

[juliamajor]

I am sorry, but I must say that I am very skeptical to this so called speaking or praying in tounges that is only understood by God and His angels. Yes, I believe that it is a true gift of the Holy Spirit, but I see it as a gift of speaking a foreign language, so that it can be used to preach to others of that same language. As for the praying of an angelic language…I am very and will remain skeptical for a long time to come. Lets think about it for a second…and I know that there will be some on these forums that will come at me defending why they think they pray in tongues…but where was this gift before the 1900’s? Why did it disappear? Some may say it was always there, it just wasn’t focused on as it should have been. Than why did it reappear? Some will say that there is a need for it now. Than I ask for what?..because some Pentecostal Protestants decided to fall and roll around, going crazy, not maintaining order in church. Believe me, I been to a couple of protestant communities where this happens. Why did this phenomena begin “again” in a protestant denomination? Wait a second, than we have the Oneness Pentecostals, who are psuedo-Christians, that also share this “phenomena.” They are not even baptized in the Spirit, for they baptize invalidly, baptizing in the “name of Jesus Christ.” They don’t even believe in the Trinity, but yet claim to speak and pray in tongues. How can they claim to have the Spirit when they dont even believe in the Holy Spirit existing distinctly for all time. So, now we have confusion as to who is really praying in tongues. Than we have the Charismatic Catholics(no pun intended to those who come from this background), all of a sudden the Pentecostal Protestants are claiming this gift, so the Catholics also decide to claim and experience this “phenomena.” Why the late surge of experiencing these gifts among the protestants, do Catholics decide to experience it? The Catholics decided to experience this in the late 60’s, early 70’s, after the changes of the Mass, but the protestants were doing this early on in the 20th Century? Was something wrong with the Tridentine Mass? See why I dont believe this is truly happening…to much confusion that the Holy Spirit is bringing and stirring up.

You know there was a time the Tridentine Mass was brand new.Don’t you think it could have been disconcerting to some folks at the time?

 

[Byzman]

You know there was a time the Tridentine Mass was brand new.Don’t you think it could have been disconcerting to some folks at the time?

I was not talking negative here about the Novus Ordo Mass, but I was merely making a statement as to where was this gift of praying in tongues before the changes of the Mass. Obviously there was nothing wrong with the Tridentine Mass, so why didn’t this happen sooner?

 

[Reuben_J]

…but where was this gift before the 1900’s? Why did it disappear? Some may say it was always there, it just wasn’t focused on as it should have been. Than why did it reappear? Some will say that there is a need for it now.

I for one cannot answer you on this question. We need to ask God why it is as it is. Suffice it to say that the gift is Biblical and it is there from the Holy Spirit as you have said. Other than that, we don’t know, only God knows. In fact there are many things that we don’t know. Sometimes we claim to know something that we don’t have any true knowledge at all.

Than I ask for what?..because some Pentecostal Protestants decided to fall and roll around, going crazy, not maintaining order in church. Believe me, I been to a couple of protestant communities where this happens. Why did this phenomena begin “again” in a protestant denomination? Wait a second, than we have the Oneness Pentecostals, who are psuedo-Christians, that also share this “phenomena.” They are not even baptized in the Spirit, for they baptize invalidly, baptizing in the “name of Jesus Christ.” They don’t even believe in the Trinity, but yet claim to speak and pray in tongues. How can they claim to have the Spirit when they dont even believe in the Holy Spirit existing distinctly for all time.

If you are talking to Catholic Christians, you can forget the whole thing about referencing to Protestants, unless you want to address them. I have no idea about what Protestants do or their belief about this subject and I am not interested to know, as it do not have any bearing whatsoever on Catholicism. It is easy to make suggestion but by all fairness, it must come with proof and evidence.

So, now we have confusion as to who is really praying in tongues. Than we have the Charismatic Catholics(no pun intended to those who come from this background), all of a sudden the Pentecostal Protestants are claiming this gift, so the Catholics also decide to claim and experience this “phenomena.”

This is utterly rubbish and you know it. By far I have tried to avoid discussion that goes anywhere near this line but perhaps somebody has to address this here.

You are in no position to say that the **‘Catholics also decide to claim and experience this “phenomena.”‘ **Nobody can make a judgment on something they do not know and do not experience. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not taught but caught. Either you have it or you don’t. You cannot go into a person’s mind to know what he is thinking. At best it is just an assumption and good Christians do not make assumption about their fellows’ brothers and sisters.

Why the late surge of experiencing these gifts among the protestants, do Catholics decide to experience it? The Catholics decided to experience this in the late 60’s, early 70’s, after the changes of the Mass, but the protestants were doing this early on in the 20th Century? Was something wrong with the Tridentine Mass? See why I dont believe this is truly happening…to much confusion that the Holy Spirit is bringing and stirring up.

You base your argument on a wrong premise; on something that is not there. The only reason why I do not want to laugh at this is because I think you are ignorant about Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When you throw statement like that, it is like Muslims who say we worship three gods, based on a premise that is not there.

Catholics did not decide to experience anything. It just happened and that’s it. Even those who experienced this action of the Holy Spirit also did not know it at first and did not know what to do with it. What they did know is that they experienced changes, like greater affinity to the Bible, prayers, obedience to the Magestrium and the Pope, greater love for mass, awareness of sins and the need for repentance. Fortunately or unfortunately these same people may experience the gift of tongue, though not all of them.

FYI, most of these people were at one time lapsed or nominal Catholics before they experienced the grace of the Holy Spirit that led to their renewal. Whatever the reason and cause, nobody can say that it was a bad thing, and we should NOT attribute a person’s renewal to the Devil because that is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit – attributing His work to the Devil’s. The Devil does not lead a person to God.

Why the obsession with tongue beats me as those who possess this gift most of the time do not even talk about it. There is no need to flaunt it or even highlight it. Praying in tongue is a personal gift and speaking in tongue is an upbuilding gift for the community; as been mentioned. And never, I said, never, that it is ever imposed on anybody, least of all on Catholics who do not know, do not believe it and do not want it. Yes, there may be isolated cases but it is never the norm.

I hope this is clear enough. Let’s discuss something reasonable and truthful. If you do not know, please ask questions. Many of us here are only too glad to answer you.

 

[grannymh]

I was not talking negative here about the Novus Ordo Mass, but I was merely making a statement as to where was this gift of praying in tongues before the changes of the Mass. Obviously there was nothing wrong with the Tridentine Mass, so why didn’t this happen sooner?

There is actual history of the gifts of the Holy Spirit from St. Paul’s time to the present.

Due to some individual misuse of the gifts, the full activity of the Holy Spirit became obscure and limited. But there was never a complete loss. Abundant charismatic activity is present in the lives of the saints and occasional manifestations of God’s power are known among the laity. The loss was an obscuring of the total life of the Spirit in the average Catholic.

As to why there is a Catholic Charismatic Renewal in our time. Look at prime time news and the commercials. The why is obvious.

Please refer to book listed below.

Blessings,
Charismatic granny

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**

by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

 

[OnceLostSoul]

Paul teaches one gift of tongues with a two fold application:

1. It builds up the body (church)as whole with a phropetic word…which needs a valid
   translator to be interpeted and.
2. Paryer tongues which is for use in pirvate prayer…to build up the individual…which in
   reality also builds up the body.

The lord has seen fit to give me the gift of prayer tongues…it has done wonders to my prayer life…it does sound like gerberish to me…I have no idea what I’m parying for…
but the spirit knows I’m sure.

God loves you…God bless

At least 4 different uses of this charismatic gift of tongues have been observed among Catholic charismatic prayer groups. Listed by order of frequency, they are:

1. 
   *]Prayer tongue- used to praise and worship the Lord - relatively common among charismatics
   *]Ministerial tongue- used when praying over for healing - rarer
   *]Prophetic tongue- prophecy is spoken in tongues - quite rare, requires interpretation
   *]Language tongue- uttering foreign languages unknown to the speaker- very rare
   
   All 4 types of tongues sound quite differently from each other.
   
   Prayer tongue is the least of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as it builds up the individual and not the church. Sometimes the prayer tongue sounds like sighs or groans, but among persons highly gifted by the Holy Spirit, they can sound like sweet harmony as in song- think of “angelic voices”. To pray properly in tongues requires a surrender of the self (particularly the intellect) to the control of the Holy Spirit- to be able to let go and utter non-intelligible gibberish. Hence prayer tongue is often a ‘threshold gift’ that opens the way to higher gifts like healing and prophecy which builds up the church. The Spirit grants His gifts to those whom He chooses, particularly those who are surrendered to the Spirit- they use His gifts in the service of the Lord and not for their own personal glory.
   
   Ministerial tongue is used by those with the gift of healing when praying over sick or afflicted persons with laying-over of hands. Strictly speaking, the persons doing the praying-over are just human instruments and it is Jesus who is the healer,
   
   Prophecy in tongues in normally accompanied by interpretation of tongues. It is rare but is quite an awesome experience when it happens. Often the prophecy is not a prediction about the future, but words of edification or encouragement. On rare occasions, the prophecy may be specific instructions to the community from the Holy Spirit- see for example Acts 13:1-3.
   
   Language tongue- very rare today, but must have been quite common during the apostolic era when the apostles were strongly empowered by the Holy Spirit so that the church could grow rapidly. Note that in Acts 2:4-18, Peter spoke in tongues and was simultaneously understood in many foreigners, each in his own foreign language. This was truly a miracle that reversed the effects of the Tower of Babel.
   
   Grace be with all of you!