Pause now before we go further

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To be honest, my posting of this is completely out of fear. I am afraid that my catholicity will be doubted, my tradition will be scrutinized, and that some of my fellow Eastern and Oriental Catholics who defend their orthodoxy (lower case “o”) will find themselves marginalized. Already, a member of my own church has had his catholicity doubted, by a fellow Eastern Catholic at that. This is not a matter of standing up and defending our positions, we do that regularly, it’s a matter of being told we are not “faithful” Eastern and Oriental Catholics, or having every experience we have had in our church, from patriarch to deacon, labeled as wrong; as if a casual reader who is Latin or a fervent Byzantine poster has any authority to say such.
The purpose of this forum is to discuss Eastern Catholicism, to be a community for Eastern Catholics, and to help Latin Catholics better understand and appreciate the Catholic Church’s Eastern heritage. Those members who identify themselves as being members of churches in union with the Pope are Catholics, period. Any questioning or denigration of that status is a violation of forum rules and should be reported to the mod staff using the red-and-white triangle icon attached to each post. CAF is committed to enforcing forum rules, both the general rules of all the forums and the specific rules of the EC forum, and we will rely on members for their (name removed by moderator)ut and assistance in that regard. If anyone has any questions, suggestions, or concerns, please write to forumadmin@catholic.com. Thanks!
 
Joab,

First, there is no Eastern Catholic Church. There are a variety of Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches.

What separates the EC from the EO is the intent on being in communion with Rome. Mind you, many of these churches existed and came into union far before the definitions of infallibility, IC, and such existed. As such, these were non-issues when communing with Rome. The most prevalent example would be the Melkites who shared union with both Rome and Constantinople for a dramatically long period of time after the schism, again, lacking the developments found in the West. This is why the Melkites in particular will be very fervent (rightly so) defending their lack of original sin, purgatory, IC as defined by being free from original sin (which again they don’t have), etc. I would encourage you to look up the words of the Melkite Patriarchs to hear their views of their office versus Rome’s; you will be surprised.

What separates the OC from the EO is tradition and history. Those liturgical and praxis qualities found in the Oriental Orthodox are what the Oriental Catholics share. To me, this is a non issue, from my personal experience with Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, their degree of separation is not noticeable beyond their practice, however, I come from a place where EO, EC, OC, OO commune amongst each other. Again, the issue that would separate the Orientals from the Easterners would be the original intent in communing with Rome.

I don’t subscribe to the Western debates between Oriental and Byzantine theology, from pastoral counsel and personal experience, these issues tend to be resolved, and near fruition at the ecclesiastical level. This would also involve Latin commentary on Syriac tradition, which more often than not is flagrantly misrepresented to defend things such as the IC and universal jurisdiction.

Peace and God Bless.
Thank you for the very good info.

I actually asked these questions before and reached out to the EC’s in the old forum but somehow it got swamped in the sea of futile strife.

For me the most important issue has been unity. However that is defined is worked out way above my level of opinion and I respect what ever is proclaimed dispite doctrinal symantics.

Thanks again and

Peace.
 
The purpose of this forum is to discuss Eastern Catholicism, to be a community for Eastern Catholics, and to help Latin Catholics better understand and appreciate the Catholic Church’s Eastern heritage. Those members who identify themselves as being members of churches in union with the Pope are Catholics, period. Any questioning or denigration of that status is a violation of forum rules and should be reported to the mod staff using the red-and-white triangle icon attached to each post. CAF is committed to enforcing forum rules, both the general rules of all the forums and the specific rules of the EC forum, and we will rely on members for their (name removed by moderator)ut and assistance in that regard. If anyone has any questions, suggestions, or concerns, please write to forumadmin@catholic.com. Thanks!
I appreciate you adding my concern to the forum policy. No doubt it will be moderated as much as the new purpose of this forum.

Peace and God Bless.
 
They were just told they couldn’t call themselves Orthodox Catholics because it is too confusing for those who don’t understand who is who. Why would you turn around and do it to them, knowing they can’t respond?

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Catholic
Oriental Catholic
Roman or Latin Catholic

That’s not hard and doesn’t need any stumbling about to figure out.
I am not doing anything to them. I am simply discuss the TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC perspective.
 
They were just told they couldn’t call themselves Orthodox Catholics because it is too confusing for those who don’t understand who is who. Why would you turn around and do it to them, knowing they can’t respond?

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Catholic
Oriental Catholic
Roman or Latin Catholic

That’s not hard and doesn’t need any stumbling about to figure out.
Due to oddities of History, and of Latin, the non-Roman Church member churches of the Catholic Communion are all called interchangeably Oriental Catholics and Eastern Catholics, since Oriental in Latin means “Of the East”…
 
THe thing is that the faith of the Maronite, of the Ruthenian, of the Roman, and of the Copt, these all share the same fundamental truths, and while the other elements of faith differ, all are in fact valid expressions of the Truth of Christ.
Even when the contradict one another?
 
I’m sorry, but I’m getting confused. In this thread, if I say “Eastern Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the eastern rites that are in communion with Rome. If I say “Oriental Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the oriental rite that are in communion with Rome. Anyway, that’s the terminology I think we’re using. Right?

And if I am referring to the Eastern Orthodox, I don’t mean “Eastern Catholic”, right?

I’m not trying to offend anybody. I just want to know what I’m talking about and what I’m hearing.
 
I’m sorry, but I’m getting confused. In this thread, if I say “Eastern Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the eastern rites that are in communion with Rome. If I say “Oriental Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the oriental rite that are in communion with Rome. Anyway, that’s the terminology I think we’re using. Right?

And if I am referring to the Eastern Orthodox, I don’t mean “Eastern Catholic”, right?

I’m not trying to offend anybody. I just want to know what I’m talking about and what I’m hearing.
Aramis is saying to use Eastern and Oriental interchangeably. While it happens at higher levels that way, it has not been the standard of this forum.

The generally accepted terms here are:
Eastern Catholic
Oriental Catholic
Maronite - sometimes grouped in either of the above, often pulled out on its own
Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Orthodox
Latin or Roman Catholic
 
I’m sorry, but I’m getting confused. In this thread, if I say “Eastern Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the eastern rites that are in communion with Rome. If I say “Oriental Catholic”, I’m talking about those churches of the oriental rite that are in communion with Rome. Anyway, that’s the terminology I think we’re using. Right?

And if I am referring to the Eastern Orthodox, I don’t mean “Eastern Catholic”, right?

I’m not trying to offend anybody. I just want to know what I’m talking about and what I’m hearing.
As used in this thread, Eastern Catholic refers to those churches who follow the Byzantine tradition. Their fathers are the Greek fathers which include St. Athanasius and the Capadocians and St. Maximus. Oriental Catholic refers to those churches which follow the Syriac tradition. Their fathers are the Syriac fathers including St Ephrem, St. James of Sarug, St. Isaac of Nineveh and etc.
 
Statement of the Joint Catholic-Orthodox Commission
Ravenna,Italy
13 October 2007
orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/130.aspx#2
Unlike diocesan and regional synods, an ecumenical council is not an “institution” whose frequency can be regulated by canons; it is rather an “event”, a kairos inspired by the Holy Spirit who guides the Church so as to engender within it the institutions which it needs and which respond to its nature. ***This harmony between the Church and the councils is so profound that, even after the break between East and West which rendered impossible the holding of ecumenical councils in the strict sense of the term, both Churches continued to hold councils whenever serious crises arose. ***These councils gathered together the bishops of local Churches in communion with the See of Rome or, although understood in a different way, with the See of Constantinople, respectively. In the Roman Catholic Church, some of these councils held in the West were regarded as ecumenical. This situation, which obliged both sides of Christendom to convoke councils proper to each of them, favoured dissentions which contributed to mutual estrangement. The means which will allow the re-establishment of ecumenical consensus must be sought out.
We would do very well to establish a consensus as to
  1. What weight or authority this commission holds
  2. Under these terms or definitions, how much participation from the East constitutes a legitimate quoram in the view of the commission for a Council. The Assyrians were gone after #2, the Oriental O’s were gone after #4. Not to seem pedantic, but can we establish using these possible parameters then that there has been more than two councils? More than 4?
 
The Eastern Catholic Churches do not differ only in tradition. There is a different theology. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their best theologians discussing these issues. The Catholic side opened the door to the post-schism councils being local councils with the most recent ecumenical dialog, which would mean non-Latin Catholics would not be held to it. Calling someone berserk for wrestling with what the Vatican and many Eastern Catholics bishops say is a justifiable belief does not respect either side.
What does this mean of Vatican I. Is it local? As such the council and it’s conclusions become open to question (local councils are not without error but guides for the faithful they govern). If the conclusions of a council are not binding on all the christian faithful they are not infallable. Vatican I is very pivital to the Orthodox Catholic discussion.
If indeed the Catholics see these as nonbinding on the Orthodox, they will be much closer to coming unity.
 
What does this mean of Vatican I. Is it local? As such the council and it’s conclusions become open to question (local councils are not without error but guides for the faithful they govern). If the conclusions of a council are not binding on all the christian faithful they are not infallable. Vatican I is very pivital to the Orthodox Catholic discussion.
If indeed the Catholics see these as nonbinding on the Orthodox, they will be much closer to coming unity.
If we Latin Catholics were to accept this idea that Vatican I was simply a local council, we would be compromising our faith. BTW, it was not local as Eastern Bishops also participated, whether they agreed with the conclusions or not.
 
If we Latin Catholics were to accept this idea that Vatican I was simply a local council, we would be compromising our faith. BTW, it was not local as Eastern Bishops also participated, whether they agreed with the conclusions or not.
Western bishops did not agree as well. This council could be seen in the realm of a political ploy as well.
BTW
What bishops of the orient were there?
 
Western bishops did not agree as well. This council could be seen in the realm of a political ploy as well.
BTW
What bishops of the orient were there?
No, they didn’t all agree. But the conclusions of the Council were what they were: The Pope is infallible and has universal jurisdiction.
 
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