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Per_Crucem
Guest
That you have no real argument here is evidenced by the fact that you have to refer to events that happened 500-800 years ago to scramble to make a point.
We can refer to news from this morning.
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We can refer to news from this morning.
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Peebo
Guest
Yes…very sad…according to her Christians and Muslims co-existed together until the US invaded her country…that left the way open for extremist Islamic factions which have now made the whole middle east a powder keg of terrorism.I saw the interview with her. Very, very sad stuff. I have been to Iraq, and know full well how joyous the Christian community there was. All that we can say, outside of direct government intervention by destroying ISIS, and/or restoring the Christian community there, is that Christ exists and is present in and fills all things and He will watch His flock regardless of what country they are forced to go to.
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peace_at_last
Guest
Source or it never happened.Muslims and Christians agree God is good. Yet one book commands its followers to “chop off heads and finger tips and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.” The other tells us to “love one another as I have loved you”.
Following this thread really sheds light on the minuscule differences between Catholics and Protestants….
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Surah 8:12Source or it never happened.
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manualman
Guest
Catholic Farmer pretty much nailed it. When Christians commit crimes and moral atrocities they do so in spite of the fact that their actions contradict the teaching and example of Jesus Christ. Jihadis have a pretty good case when they are committing atrocities that they are imitating the example of Muhammed and thus conforming to Allah’s will.
Peaceatlast is correct to note that humans of every type and creed have a pretty poor track record of sinfulness and horror stories in history. He’s just not admitting to the glaring difference between the actual teachings of these two historical figures.
And I’d say that this is an enormous problem with Islam. Peaceatlast is clearly a decent guy just trying to defend his religious convictions, but he has to tie himself in these absurd knots to justify some of the Hadith and Koran quotes that we’ve all heard and recoiled from. Muhammed may have been morally advanced for his culture at the time, but he’s no Jesus Christ and his failings are going to be awfully hard for muslims to purge from their moral code. Good luck to you and God have mercy on us all.
Peaceatlast is correct to note that humans of every type and creed have a pretty poor track record of sinfulness and horror stories in history. He’s just not admitting to the glaring difference between the actual teachings of these two historical figures.
And I’d say that this is an enormous problem with Islam. Peaceatlast is clearly a decent guy just trying to defend his religious convictions, but he has to tie himself in these absurd knots to justify some of the Hadith and Koran quotes that we’ve all heard and recoiled from. Muhammed may have been morally advanced for his culture at the time, but he’s no Jesus Christ and his failings are going to be awfully hard for muslims to purge from their moral code. Good luck to you and God have mercy on us all.
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ptisme
Guest
8:12… If you don’t know your own Quran there is that site called google……Source or it never happened.
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peace_at_last
Guest
The pope doesn’t need the Bible. It is claimed that the pope is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he has much to say that you cannot bear yet, but he will send the Holy Spirit to declare them:No. In fact the Church has apologized for every evil act it committed back in the day. While I believe in turning the other cheek even in the midst of oppression, the Christians of that time did defend themselves against attacking Muslims. However, I disagree with any war as I believe in praying for those who hate you, persecute you, etc.
I know this was directed at a Lutheran and I am an Evangelical, but I’m sure you really want to direct this at the Catholics. But I can speak on behalf of my position and what I presume is the Lutheran position regarding this, and how it can relate to Islam.
Evangelicals believe that some disagreements are incredibly important as it keeps other Church’s in line. When there is one authoritative Church it can be dangerous, because said Church can use that power for corruption. That’s why there was a reform, which the Lutheran poster here represents. Although, corruption and killing continued within many Church’s, and doctrinal disagreements persued causing many breaks.
However, this has brought us to a point where all Church’s can unanimously condemn another Church for it’s actions. Let’s say for example the CC wanted another inquisition; every other Church would stand up and say NO. This sort of thing does not happen in Islam as there are no authorities, and many of them are very corrupt; especially considering they use their texts to back it up.
Now I will say personally as an Evangelical I looked for quotes from Pope’s, Church Fathers, etc; trying to prove that they distorted the Bible in order to fit an agenda and it turns out there’s nothing. It was one of the reasons that I wanted to become Catholic is that even though they acted evil, it was despite their religious texts; not because of them. That’s why the crusades and inquisitions don’t have Pope’s quoting Jesus Christ.
John 16: 12-13 “I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will take from what is mine and declare it to you.”
The Pope ordered the inquisitions and he was inspired by the Holy spirit and Jesus had said he has words but you cannot bear it now but the Holy spirit will declare them.
Thus I don’t see any reason why the Inquisitions were against Christian doctrine.
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peace_at_last
Guest
If you can’t read there is something called school:8:12… If you don’t know your own Quran there is that site called google……
8:12: “when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.””
God sent his ANGELS to assist the Muslims by Killing the enemies in the Battle of Badr in that manner. It was not an order to the Muslims to do that the non-believers wherever they found them as you claimed.
You might as well dismiss the whole episode as a fairytale like the rest of the Quran that you don’t believe in, but be honest not deceptive, don’t make things up that don’t exist.
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ptisme
Guest
Add to that you have on one hand, Jesus Christ, who lived without sin (including fornication). On the other hand you have Muhammad who:Catholic Farmer pretty much nailed it. When Christians commit crimes and moral atrocities they do so in spite of the fact that their actions contradict the teaching and example of Jesus Christ. Jihadis have a pretty good case when they are committing atrocities that they are imitating the example of Muhammed and thus conforming to Allah’s will.
Peaceatlast is correct to note that humans of every type and creed have a pretty poor track record of sinfulness and horror stories in history. He’s just not admitting to the glaring difference between the actual teachings of these two historical figures.
**And I’d say that this is an enormous problem with Islam. Peaceatlast is clearly a decent guy just trying to defend his religious convictions, but he has to tie himself in these absurd knots to justify some of the Hadith and Koran quotes that we’ve all heard and recoiled from. ** Muhammed may have been morally advanced for his culture at the time, but he’s no Jesus Christ and his failings are going to be awfully hard for muslims to purge from their moral code. Good luck to you and God have mercy on us all.
At the age of 51 he married a six year old and fondled her until she was nine when he consummated the marriage.
After his first wife died he never earned an honest dollar again. Instead he raised money for himself, his family, followers and troops by raiding caravans and villages.
He married (at least) eleven women and had many sex slaves that were captured during raids - sometimes having sex with them only hours after their husbands were killed in front of them.
Muhammed killed or had killed thousands of Jews and Christians who resisted islam. He also ordered the killing of his critics and anyone who left islam.
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Catholic_farmer
Guest
How could our Pope not need the bible? That very idea is absurd. Following Jeusus requires them to surrender themselves entirely to the will of God.
The only I can think of is that you must be referring to the infallibility of our Pope, which is not some supreme power to be wielded at any time. The mistake many non-Catholics make is that we Catholics believe each and every word of our Pope is infalliable. Not even close! The Pope is only infalliable when he declares the holy Spirit has led him to some truth that has not previous been declared as such. The last infalliable statement was made over 40 years ago. These statements are used to counter heresy.
Further, the Pope has this right through apostolic succession and the fact that Jesus gave St, Peter (the first Pope) the “keys to the kingdom”. Popes are still human and have, at times, not followed the holy Spirit. However, the Church has never claimed that Popes are always right or infalliable. They reserve this rarely used power only in the face of heresy.
The actions during the Dark Ages have been greatly exaggerated by the enemies of the Church. It was a dark time, but the Church as a whole still followed the holy Spiriit, even when individuals did not. Remember, even Jesus had Judas in his ranks. We humans still have the free will God gave us, which means we can choose good or evil.
Please do stay on topic and help us understand how you can support the atrocities done in the name of your religion? Surely, you would be willing to denounce the attacks on innocent Christians in Iraq and Syria and the terrorism imposed by the ISIS? Many of your follow Muslims have denounced it. Won’t you, please, for all of us here, denounce the actions of ISIS and the attack on Christians?
The only I can think of is that you must be referring to the infallibility of our Pope, which is not some supreme power to be wielded at any time. The mistake many non-Catholics make is that we Catholics believe each and every word of our Pope is infalliable. Not even close! The Pope is only infalliable when he declares the holy Spirit has led him to some truth that has not previous been declared as such. The last infalliable statement was made over 40 years ago. These statements are used to counter heresy.
Further, the Pope has this right through apostolic succession and the fact that Jesus gave St, Peter (the first Pope) the “keys to the kingdom”. Popes are still human and have, at times, not followed the holy Spirit. However, the Church has never claimed that Popes are always right or infalliable. They reserve this rarely used power only in the face of heresy.
The actions during the Dark Ages have been greatly exaggerated by the enemies of the Church. It was a dark time, but the Church as a whole still followed the holy Spiriit, even when individuals did not. Remember, even Jesus had Judas in his ranks. We humans still have the free will God gave us, which means we can choose good or evil.
Please do stay on topic and help us understand how you can support the atrocities done in the name of your religion? Surely, you would be willing to denounce the attacks on innocent Christians in Iraq and Syria and the terrorism imposed by the ISIS? Many of your follow Muslims have denounced it. Won’t you, please, for all of us here, denounce the actions of ISIS and the attack on Christians?
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ptisme
Guest
Only when he speaks Ex Cathedra… Hasn’t been done in about 50 years. You would do well to recognize that the Crusades (Something you had to go back 600 years for I might add) have already been apologized for and have been recognized as wrong doing.The pope doesn’t need the Bible.** It is claimed that the pope is inspired by the Holy Spirit**. Jesus said he has much to say that you cannot bear yet, but he will send the Holy Spirit to declare them:
John 16: 12-13 “I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will take from what is mine and declare it to you.”
The Pope ordered the inquisitions and he was inspired by the Holy spirit and Jesus had said he has words but you cannot bear it now but the Holy spirit will declare them.
Thus I don’t see any reason why the Inquisitions were against Christian doctrine.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/an-inquisition-primer
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peace_at_last
Guest
I did denounce the ISIS, from post one. The rest of the discussion was off-topic brought up by others.How could our Pope not need the bible? That very idea is absurd. Following Jeusus requires them to surrender themselves entirely to the will of God.
The only I can think of is that you must be referring to the infallibility of our Pope, which is not some supreme power to be wielded at any time. The mistake many non-Catholics make is that we Catholics believe each and every word of our Pope is infalliable. Not even close! The Pope is only infalliable when he declares the holy Spirit has led him to some truth that has not previous been declared as such. The last infalliable statement was made over 40 years ago. These statements are used to counter heresy.
Further, the Pope has this right through apostolic succession and the fact that Jesus gave St, Peter (the first Pope) the “keys to the kingdom”. Popes are still human and have, at times, not followed the holy Spirit. However, the Church has never claimed that Popes are always right or infalliable. They reserve this rarely used power only in the face of heresy.
The actions during the Dark Ages have been greatly exaggerated by the enemies of the Church. It was a dark time, but the Church as a whole still followed the holy Spiriit, even when individuals did not. Remember, even Jesus had Judas in his ranks. We humans still have the free will God gave us, which means we can choose good or evil.
Please do stay on topic and help us understand how you can support the atrocities done in the name of your religion? Surely, you would be willing to denounce the attacks on innocent Christians in Iraq and Syria and the terrorism imposed by the ISIS? Many of your follow Muslims have denounced it. Won’t you, please, for all of us here, denounce the actions of ISIS and the attack on Christians?
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ptisme
Guest
47:4 as well…. You may want to spread the news to all your fellow Muslims who are beheading “infidels” all over the internet….If you can’t read there is something called school:
8:12: “when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.””
God sent his ANGELS to assist the Muslims by Killing the enemies in the Battle of Badr in that manner. It was not an order to the Muslims to do that the non-believers wherever they found them as you claimed.
You might as well dismiss the whole episode as a fairytale like the rest of the Quran that you don’t believe in, but be honest not deceptive, don’t make things up that don’t exist.
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peace_at_last
Guest
Sorry, you really need to go to school. All you utter are lies. All your posts will be ignored.47:4 as well…. You may want to spread the news to all your fellow Muslims who are beheading “infidels” all over the internet….
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peace_at_last
Guest
Yes thousands. It doesn’t make a difference.Thousands at one rally in Iran? Come on.
Sunni hadiths? I’m a Shia.Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:Code:Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:Code:Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:Code:Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6983:Code:Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6984:Code:Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:Code:Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.
Code:Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
When the Christian president of the most powerful nation has schizophrenia and Gets orders from God to start wars, we are not living in the dark ages, we are living in an age that is inferior to the dark ages.LOL! Oh, Bush. There’s a difference between interpreting Jesus’s words as “Go liberate Afghanistan” and apparent schizophrenia. Come to think of it, Bush reminds me a lot of Muhammad; getting random messages to go “liberate” others with killing.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
This totally doesn’t prove dronald’s point about hadiths or anything.Sunni hadiths? I’m a Shia.
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dronald
Guest
Nope. Not at all.This totally doesn’t prove droanald’s point about hadiths or anything.
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ptisme
Guest
Really? Our beliefs, if based on truth, can withstand all scrutiny…Sorry, you really need to go to school. All you utter are lies. All your posts will be ignored.
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ptisme
Guest
Straight from the horses mouth. What does it say to do to those who disbelieve?
quran.com/47/4
Maybe I’m “lying” here, but I’m pretty sure if I stated that I was going to “smite” my wife’s neck I’d be spending a night or two in jail….
quran.com/47/4
Maybe I’m “lying” here, but I’m pretty sure if I stated that I was going to “smite” my wife’s neck I’d be spending a night or two in jail….
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Peebo
Guest
You really are starting to lose credibility in some of your assertions…the Pope celebrates mass every single day…the whole of the mass in fact is scripturual…every Christian in the world needs the bible…the Pope is inspired by the Holy Spirit in matters of the truth of church doctrine…he has no more claim to inspiration than any other Christian in other matters of faith…to say the “Pope” ordered the inquisition under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is complete and utter nonsense…if some of the posts here are upsetting you then you need to step back and take a deep breath…The pope doesn’t need the Bible. It is claimed that the pope is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he has much to say that you cannot bear yet, but he will send the Holy Spirit to declare them:
John 16: 12-13 “I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will take from what is mine and declare it to you.”
The Pope ordered the inquisitions and he was inspired by the Holy spirit and Jesus had said he has words but you cannot bear it now but the Holy spirit will declare them.
Thus I don’t see any reason why the Inquisitions were against Christian doctrine.
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