PDA in Front of Family?

[maryjk]

You may not know it, but you are opening a can of worms, here.

There are two avenues of thought here. Of course.

One is that it is perfectly fine for a peck (kiss) during the sign of peace. And of course there are others that feel that anything but a handshake is totally wrong. And that if you kiss your spouse or hug your children, you need to kiss all those around you.

You may want to start a new thread on it.

 

[HoneyBea]

You may not know it, but you are opening a can of worms, here.

There are two avenues of thought here. Of course.

One is that it is perfectly fine for a peck (kiss) during the sign of peace. And of course there are others that feel that anything but a handshake is totally wrong. And that if you kiss your spouse or hug your children, you need to kiss all those around you.

You may want to start a new thread on it.

Wow really? This is all I know. My parents hugged and kissed me and all my brothers etc and now I do the same with my husband except I kiss him on the lips. Ive never paid attention around me to see if others do it too. Interesting! And yes I will start a new thread thank you : ) what should I put it under?

 

[EasterJoy]

I have to agree.

EasterJoy,
You may find it rude or not acceptable. But I see absolutely no problem with it.

And I find that your reasons don’t make sense. At least to me.

Rude is definitely too strong a word, provided we’re not talking about something that REALLY says, “I’d like to get out of here and get you alone.” I don’t think anyone here is advocating for that! (If so–well, get a room, and try to be a bit more discrete about it in the future.)

I mean that a) a couple can actually be doing something that is insensitive to others without knowing it, which I think is worth taking into consideration, since it is not a big penance to tone it down when that even might be the case and b) there are other things that are far more edifying in terms of witnessing what a good marriage is. No one minds when you do those; they like being around a couple that is positive in how they talk to and about each other, a couple that are each other’s strongest social allies when interacting with a group.

PDAs are something you do for yourselves and to some extent for the benefit of your children. They don’t really do anything for anybody else, and they become unwelcome at a level much lower than some couples realize. That is not to say they are a bad thing, so much as they are something that really have very little to do with the people witnessing them. Their value is largely exclusive to you and your spouse, and particularly to your nuclear family. I mean that in that moment, other people are excluded. Again: not inherently inappropriate, but it is no real favor to anybody watching, either.

After all, what if your children saw that your love for each other was secondarily witnessed by PDAs, which were not so overtly sexual that these gestures would be* just wrong* if extended to anyone else, but was primarily witnessed by how you refrained from being controlling or negative, how you constantly express gratitude and admiration for each other, how you give way to each other out of reverence for Christ, how obviously you see each other as supportive partners in each other’s daily work, how you look for little things to do for each other, how your are sensitive to each other’s feelings by not talking about how sexy someone else is, and so on? Which is going to be a better model for them in terms of how they carry out their own courtship and marriage? Obviously, when they start dating, the PDAs will be the least difficult thing to imitate. It is the other work of marriage that is the best and most remarkable witness to everyone else, not the physical PDAs.

 

[RoseMary131]

It is the other work of marriage that is the best and most remarkable witness to everyone else, not the physical PDAs.

Holding hands and a kiss between spouses in front of family at Thanksgiving or in public does not have to be excluded because of the fact that marriage is witness in a variety of ways.

Culture, family of origin, religious beliefs, personal experiences and opinion help form the couple’s thoughts on offering a kiss to their spouse at what place.

Your opinion may be that a kiss between spouses does not belong in front of extended family. While you may disagree, others find that this form of expression is acceptable.

 

[EasterJoy]

Holding hands and a kiss between spouses in front of family at Thanksgiving or in public does not have to be excluded because of the fact that marriage is witness in a variety of ways.

Culture, family of origin, religious beliefs, personal experiences and opinion help form the couple’s thoughts on offering a kiss to their spouse at what place.

Your opinion may be that a kiss between spouses does not belong in front of extended family. While you may disagree, others find that this form of expression is acceptable.

Kiss away, but unless you’re proposing marriage or it’s your wedding day it really doesn’t do a thing for anybody except the two of you and possibly your children. Many don’t mind, some would rather miss it, but few see it as anything particularly worth seeing.

Hearing you compliment your spouse’s cooking or helping with the dishes as if you enjoyed being with each other or being able to notice that "hey, Uncle Ed and Aunt RoseMary never have a bad word to say about anybody, let alone each other…now that is something people enjoy to be around!

 

[RoseMary131]

Kiss away, but unless you’re proposing marriage or it’s your wedding day it really doesn’t do a thing for anybody except the two of you and possibly your children. Many don’t mind, some would rather miss it, but few see it as anything particularly worth seeing.

Hearing you compliment your spouse’s cooking or helping with the dishes as if you enjoyed being with each other or being able to notice that "hey, Uncle Ed and Aunt RoseMary never have a bad word to say about anybody, let alone each other…now that is something people enjoy to be around!

I actually find peace and smile when I see my married friends give each other a kiss in the kitchen while they load the dishwasher together or share a kiss expressing their love after telling a story to the rest of us.

You and I probably had different experience of seeing or sharing a kiss within our family and friends growing up. So, you and I see things differently… not right or wrong…just differently.

I think couples exchanging a kiss is beautiful to see and I enjoy being in a friend’s or family member’s home where a kiss is displayed. It doesn’t mean I never heard them fuss at each other, but it says they love each other - fusses or kisses - they love each other.

 

[EasterJoy]

I actually find peace and smile when I see my married friends give each other a kiss in the kitchen while they load the dishwasher together or share a kiss expressing their love after telling a story to the rest of us.

You and I probably had different experience of seeing or sharing a kiss within our family and friends growing up. So, you and I see things differently… not right or wrong…just differently.

I think couples exchanging a kiss is beautiful to see and I enjoy being in a friend’s or family member’s home where a kiss is displayed. It doesn’t mean I never heard them fuss at each other, but it says they love each other - fusses or kisses - they love each other.

You are probably right about differences in experience. When I see couples exchanging PDAs one minute and being really nasty to about each other or slobbering about how “sexy” someone else is another minute, it kind of ruins it. That isn’t the only kind of couple I see exchanging PDAs, not by a long shot, but it shows that the PDAs don’t necessarily translate to anything. Plus, some couples do seem to be trying to show off how “in love” they are, which to be frank is just a much of a bore as people who show off about anything else. That is not everybody by any means! I just mean that some couples who do this seem to think they’re doing everyone a big favor by pretending they’re Romeo and Juliet. Again: excepting at events celebrating an engagement or a wedding, that’s a fantasy that’s pretty much only a thrill for the two players, but not for the audience.

The other problem is that I have had so many single or divorced or bereaved friends and relatives relate how they stay away from group activities because they get depressed being around the couples being all “couples” with the PDAs. They feel left out when most or all of the other people at an event are demonstrative couples who spend all their time hand-in-hand. I think that is too bad. Most of them expect weddings to be difficult and don’t begrudge anyone who finds weddings to be occasions for romance, but they also appreciate gatherings where romance isn’t front and center…which means it is nice when there ARE some.

So yes, if all the couples I ever saw exchanging PDAs had just great marriages from top to bottom, weren’t implying that their marriage was any different than anyone else’s, and they made an effort to make the single people at the event feel fully included, then yes, I think I’d feel differently about this. And no, most PDAs do not rise to the level of rude; at least, most people who exchange them know where to draw the line so that no one is telling them “get a room”. That’s the only kind of PDA that I would say is really rude.

 

[thewanderer]

So yes, if all the couples I ever saw exchanging PDAs had just great marriages from top to bottom, weren’t implying that their marriage was any different than anyone else’s, and they made an effort to make the single people at the event feel fully included, then yes, I think I’d feel differently about this. And no, most PDAs do not rise to the level of rude; at least, most people who exchange them know where to draw the line so that no one is telling them “get a room”. That’s the only kind of PDA that I would say is really rude.

I’m curious, if all the above were given, and a couple gave each other a quick peck on the lips in the process, would you still consider this inappropriate?

 

[RoseMary131]

You are probably right about differences in experience. When I see couples exchanging PDAs one minute and being really nasty to about each other or slobbering about how “sexy” someone else is another minute, it kind of ruins it. That isn’t the only kind of couple I see exchanging PDAs, not by a long shot, but it shows that the PDAs don’t necessarily translate to anything.

I don’t think the OP or anyone who responded that they think it is acceptable to hold hands or wrap their arm around their spouse’s shoulder was saying “and then we are really mean to each other” or “then we start talking about how sexy someone else is”.

Its sad that you have seen that type of behavior between couples. Its not the hand holding that is sad, its that they disrespect their spouse with the harmful behavior that is sad. Maybe their positive affection between each other helps their pain or maybe they are highly dysfunctional.

Plus, some couples do seem to be trying to show off how “in love” they are, which to be frank is just a much of a bore as people who show off about anything else. That is not everybody by any means! I just mean that some couples who do this seem to think they’re doing everyone a big favor by pretending they’re Romeo and Juliet. Again: excepting at events celebrating an engagement or a wedding, that’s a fantasy that’s pretty much only a thrill for the two players, but not for the audience.

That is really a “judgement call” on deciding the couple is trying to pretend to everyone that they are Romeo and Juliet or in a fairy tale romance.

Again, if they are dysfunctional that is sad. If the poor couple feels a need to “show off”, maybe this outward affection helps hold them together, even when they know it is not true. Maybe they are afraid others will know they are less than a perfect couple. (Which all couples are less than perfect.)

So, they have a problem with the reality of their marriage and maybe this “pretend show” helps them. Maybe they’ll seek help and their marriage will no longer be a pretend show.

The other problem is that I have had so many single or divorced or bereaved friends and relatives relate how they stay away from group activities because they get depressed being around the couples being all “couples” with the PDAs. They feel left out when most or all of the other people at an event are demonstrative couples who spend all their time hand-in-hand. I think that is too bad. Most of them expect weddings to be difficult and don’t begrudge anyone who finds weddings to be occasions for romance, but they also appreciate gatherings where romance isn’t front and center…which means it is nice when there ARE some.

These are the types of hurts that I was referring to in my other post. What is the root of their pain? How can they find healing?

Asking other people who love their spouse and want to hold their spouse’s hand to stop because of “my pain” is not the answer to healing.

Feeling left out - that is their emotion. They feel left out of what they do not have, yet they need not wish others to forgo the natural response they have with their own spouse of holding hands or a passing kiss.

Their real pain might be “My spouse died. I miss him very much.” “My spouse divorced me. I feel deserted and abandoned.” “I long for a spouse and feel disappointed God has not brought me a spouse.”

If the one who is grieving their loss of a relationship were grieving the loss of a child through miscarriage - would they ask their pregnant friends not to come to the event? Would they ask their friends with babies and children not to come to the event?

Grieving a loss (or grieving that God has not brought a spouse to them) is painful. Yet, the real world still goes on. Couples are still couples. Denying couples what is natural to them - hand holding - is not healthy in helping the person walk through their grief.

Whether they see a loving couple or not, they actually have that pain within them. Thinking the pain will go away by avoiding seeing married couples hold hands is not how the pain will be healed.

Their depression does not go away when couples stop holding hands. Have they sought ways to help themselves with their depression?

A friend might help them, but everyone at the gathering is not called to help them walk through their depression. Sometimes depression requires professional help.

 

[RoseMary131]

So yes, if all the couples I ever saw exchanging PDAs had just great marriages from top to bottom, weren’t implying that their marriage was any different than anyone else’s, and they made an effort to make the single people at the event feel fully included, then yes, I think I’d feel differently about this.

Those three requirements are unrealistic.

There are no marriages that are great from top to bottom. So, that is too big of an order for any couple to fill.

Most couples who hold hands, etc. are not “implying that their marriage is any different than anyone else’s.” You may “think” that is what they are “implying”, but unless they told you that - you are only making your thoughts about their thoughts.

They may naturally enjoy holding hands. They may find comfort in holding hands. They may be protecting their self from some of the pain within their marriage and the hand holding is a balm for them.

Every person and every couple is different. Some people go out of their way to make others feel comfortable. Some people do the best they can to manage social anxiety to be at an event. Expecting every couple to be the welcome committee for the single person is asking too much of every couple who wants to hold hands. So, that too is unrealistic of an order to fill to meet your expectation of who can hold hands.

There could be a couple (or one of the spouses) who relieve their own social anxiety by holding their spouse’s hand.

And no, most PDAs do not rise to the level of rude; at least, most people who exchange them know where to draw the line so that no one is telling them “get a room”. That’s the only kind of PDA that I would say is really rude.

Yes, in most settings, if affection turns to “get a room” level it already does not belong at the Thanksgiving gathering or any place else except a private setting. That’s another form of dysfunctional couple.

 

[RoseMary131]

So yes, if all the couples I ever saw exchanging PDAs had just great marriages from top to bottom,…

I hope there is no couple who is waiting for the day their marriage is great from top to bottom before they hold hands or kiss in front of others. The day of a perfect marriage will never happen. Accept that all marriages have ups and downs and hold hands or kiss if you wish during the ups and downs, even in front of others who know your marriage has flaws.

Marriage is made of two people, both with faults.

 

[Rau]

You may not know it, but you are opening a can of worms, here.

There are two avenues of thought here. Of course.

One is that it is perfectly fine for a peck (kiss) during the sign of peace. And of course there are others that feel that anything but a handshake is totally wrong. And that if you kiss your spouse or hug your children, you need to kiss all those around you.

You may want to start a new thread on it.

It certainly will be hilarious if/when the priest on the pulpit specifies the form of kiss that’s appropriate for spouses, versus others. Shaking hands with wife, kissing strangers…so many variations are possible. There’s some wisdom in relying on people’s common sense.

 

[Rau]

Kiss away, but unless you’re proposing marriage or it’s your wedding day it really doesn’t do a thing for anybody except the two of you and possibly your children. Many don’t mind, some would rather miss it, but few see it as anything particularly worth seeing.

OK, but why do the interactions between 2 people need to do something for anyone else? Isn’t the standard of behaviour to be appropriate, rather than to benefit 3rd parties?

Now behaviour is on a scale, and the “appropriate” bit is not a single point, but is itself a range, and can be quite nuanced according to circumstances. I am reasonably confident that **EasterJoy **and **MaryJK **and **RoseMary131 **would all be appropriate, while adopting different behaviours.

 

[EasterJoy]

OK, but why do the interactions between 2 people need to do something for anyone else? Isn’t the standard of behaviour to be appropriate, rather than to benefit 3rd parties?

Now behaviour is on a scale, and the “appropriate” bit is not a single point, but is itself a range, and can be quite nuanced according to circumstances. I am reasonably confident that **EasterJoy **and **MaryJK **and **RoseMary131 **would all be appropriate, while adopting different behaviours.

Well, the acronym is “Public Display of Affection”. If it rises to the level that it is a “display”, it seems courteous to consider whether or not those who are watching are going to find it something they want to see or not. IOW, some hand-holding is something that others can barely see without craning their necks around to look–it is hard to see how that is a “display”–and some, while not offensive or rude per se, is also something that no one could possibly miss.

But yes you are right: ways of showing affection physically are on a continuum. Nobody here (I would think) expects that married couples in the company of family ought to do absolutely no more than mere acquaintances would and I would hope that everybody would think that public displays of groping are both gross and rude, even when all the onlookers are family. Brothers might rightly want to tell their sisters to tone it down with the sister’s husband, because the brothers do not care to see it, and I don’t think the sisters ought to tell their brothers that they simply do not care about the brothers’ comfort.

The question, then, is where on that continuum it is wise to stay. I am only saying that a couple shouldn’t act as if they were alone and should not assume that no one objects to displays that are clearly beyond what people who are very close but not married ought to do. The line even for married people is not so far beyond that as some suppose, for a variety of reasons. That is all I am saying.

 

[RoseMary131]

You are probably right about differences in experience.

We base things in our life on our experiences.

If one person has negative experience of seeing hand holding, a quick kiss, arms around the other, “I love you”, then that person may associate seeing those forms of express as negative. Those relationship forms of expression can trigger negative thoughts, feelings, memories.

If one person has positive experience of seeing the same thing. When they see it again or discuss it, they have positive thoughts, feelings, memories.

If one person has the belief that such behavior can only be part of a “marriage that is just great top to bottom”, then a judgement has been placed on “when this can happen.” With such a high level of “when it can happen”, that level will never be reached and maybe to them “no one has meet the level, so no one should be doing this.”

How our parents and other older relatives (aunts, uncles, grandparents) saw holding hands or a kiss at Thanksgiving dinner, etc. will affect us as well.

What we heard our parents say about others who kissed or hugged will affect us as well. **

Why** our parents held their belief on holding hands and sharing a kiss in front of others affects us as well, even if they never told us why they held that belief.

If we only see dysfunctional people at family gatherings as the ones holding hands or wrapping an arm around their spouse - our idea of those forms of affection are connected to dysfunctional people.

If the single people in our life were not upset seeing couples hold hands, we may hold the same idea - hand holding is acceptable in front of single people.

If our single friends are more likely to have unhealthy feelings that they are “left out”, “alone”, “a 5th wheel” - then we might adopt this attitude as well - single people can not see couples holding hands.

I grew up seeing people I loved (parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents) share a kiss at Thanksgiving while going about the busyness of the gathering. I heard the “fussing about the way you cut the turkey” while at the same time saw the working together of the spouses and the happiness between them. The laughter, the loudness, the happiness, the fussing over who would sit where - the non-perfect spouses and families - the love that was there - shapes how I feel positive about couples sharing a kiss, etc.

As cousins and siblings and myself grew up, we expressed those same kisses and hand holding with our spouses at Thanksgiving gatherings - lots of laughter, happiness, fussing, love.

I see the same when I am with friends today, friends who share a kiss with their spouse and who might fuss to their spouse about a detail that needs to be tended too. Yet, what I see is love shared between these spouses. Their happiness, their closeness transcends throughout their home. Its a good home to visit.

 

[maryjk]

I grew up seeing people I loved (parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents) share a kiss at Thanksgiving while going about the busyness of the gathering. I heard the “fussing about the way you cut the turkey” while at the same time saw the working together of the spouses and the happiness between them. The laughter, the loudness, the happiness, the fussing over who would sit where - the non-perfect spouses and families - the love that was there - shapes how I feel positive about couples sharing a kiss, etc.

As cousins and siblings and myself grew up, we expressed those same kisses and hand holding with our spouses at Thanksgiving gatherings - lots of laughter, happiness, fussing, love.

I see the same when I am with friends today, friends who share a kiss with their spouse and who might fuss to their spouse about a detail that needs to be tended too. Yet, what I see is love shared between these spouses. Their happiness, their closeness transcends throughout their home. Its a good home to visit.

My parents always held hands. (Or at least whenever they could) Right up until my mom died. Did my parents have a perfect marriage? Of course not. But they loved each other. And they were generally happy.

My husband and I hold hands a lot. We kiss and hug “Hello” and “Goodbye,” whenever we can. When we talk on the phone, we hang up with an “I love you.” Is our marriage perfect? Nope. But we try to make it as perfect as we can.

We shouldn’t have to hide our feelings for each other because we don’t have perfect marriages from top to bottom.

 

[EasterJoy]

My parents always held hands. (Or at least whenever they could) Right up until my mom died. Did my parents have a perfect marriage? Of course not. But they loved each other. And they were generally happy.

My husband and I hold hands a lot. We kiss and hug “Hello” and “Goodbye,” whenever we can. When we talk on the phone, we hang up with an “I love you.” Is our marriage perfect? Nope. But we try to make it as perfect as we can.

We shouldn’t have to hide our feelings for each other because we don’t have perfect marriages from top to bottom.

I don’t want to imply that spouses should not touch each other in public. Also, I think that part of my “experience” is not only less demonstration between spouses but also *a lot more demonstration *between all other family members! We’re kind of Germanic, but we’re not that Germanic!

My teens kiss and hug both me and my husband “hello” and “goodbye” and “good morning” and “good night”; it’s been their decision since 4th grade (when I explained why I thought it a good idea that they initiate these in public, so they wouldn’t think I thought it wrong) and they still do it. It is probably because they grew up with their grandmother in the house and because they’ve always known it was their idea and nothing that would come their way if they weren’t so inclined. Sure, I snuggle up next to my husband on the couch with my kids there, but I’d better be quick or they will beat me to it! (Yes, I do have seniority but I usually don’t exercise my prerogative to kick them out to make room for me ).

My SIL hugged my parents and would give anyone a kiss on the cheek, and that set a more “touch”-oriented tone in the whole family after that. On my husband’s side, hugs and cheek kisses on coming and going are the norm, both among family and friends who come for Thanksgiving. If you’re at our Thanksgiving table, you’re family, and you get an offer of hugs and kisses accordingly, with your regrets allowed if you aren’t into that.

On that account, I think that what I consider PDAs that fall in the “everyone” category are far beyond what everyone else here thinks that I mean. I get the feeling that people think I’m against cupcakes; I’m just saying to choose the sort that allows you to bring enough for everybody. It really is very nice.

 

[EasterJoy]

Plus remember we had a widow living in our home for many years. That “upped” the general PDAs and lowered the PDAs that wouldn’t be extended to her, because while she liked that we were happily married, she didn’t need a reminder that she was not and never would be again. That really raised my awareness of how marital PDAs can affect someone who has no one and has no prospects of having that change.

 

[maryjk]

That is interesting.

My dad lived with us after my mom died. Now it was only for 6 months. But it was right after she died. And until he died.

But he never had a problem with my husband and I holding hands, kissing or having an arm around each other.

In fact, he would smile when he saw us doing it.

It all seems to be how PDA’s are handled in your own family. They are expected in mine, and not in yours.

 

[dshix]

It seems you two have reached somewhat of an impasse.

The truth is that there is no single answer to the question set forth by the OP; the appropriateness of public displays of affection varies by culture, family, circumstances, and personal preference.

The answer, however dissatisfying, is: it depends.