Peace and Love In Quran

[elwill]

Byzantine_Wolf

can we shrink this long discussion ?
if you have no problem with that , then please refocuse about the most important points you want to discuss with me
and please don’t just try to teach me my religion , if you wanna to know what i believe so you are wellcome
and if you wanna to sidcuss specific issues then focus on it without expanding it

 

[sedonaman]

Schaick, There is no abrogation of verses in Quran. The verse 2:106 states: See 2:106 please.

"We do not abrogate any verse nor do we cause it to be forgotten, we bring a better one in its place or a one similar (equal) to it.

It could mean that no verse is abrogated or forgotten but a better one or an equally good one can be given. So all the verses will remain in place. They will not be cut off. Some more better verses can be revealed.

But those new revealed verses will never abrogate (nullify) the earlier verses. Please remember that there are verses of the bibleOT and bibleNT too.

I believe that the verses of peace and love in the Quran and those about being just, they still stand firmly. They are not abrogated. The Muslims should love every one and should shun all hatred towards other faith people.

This is just Islamic dualism: two mutually exclusive things can both be true at the same time.

 

[sedonaman]

Only if you follow Muhammed per (Quran 3:31):

قل إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتبعوني يحببكم الله ويغفر لكم ذنوبكم والله غفور رحيم
​

**
YUSUFALI:** Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
PICKTHAL: Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL

…

Significantly, however, one does not find in this verse (nor in any other in the Qur’an) the command to love Allah with “all your heart, soul, and mind”. The reason is fairly clear from the verse itself. The hearer is exhorted to love Allah so that he may thereby obtain Allah’s love and forgiveness. The basic object, therefore, of this love is the acquittal and approval of Allah for the believer. Accordingly the motivation for such love must be the welfare and comfort of the believer. It is not suggested in the Qur’an that such love must be exercised in a disinterested and selfless manner with the glory of Allah foremost in the believer’s mind. On the contrary, the object of such love is really the believer himself

 

[staffsgt7]

Where is the Islamic/religious motive in this shooting, Sgt? Did I miss something? The story points only to a “domestic”, personal motive, mainly this guy’s problems with his ex-girlfriend.

Sorry, I thought people knew what Kosovo and that area is now that we ‘liberated’ it and helped the Muslims establish the area for themselves. He shot more than just his girlfriend.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, he is a Kosovar Albanian and probably Muslim, but I’m not seeing where that ties into the story at all. I didn’t see anything in the report that said anything about his religion playing any part in the crime.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

can we shrink this long discussion ?
if you have no problem with that , then please refocuse about the most important points you want to discuss with me

Certainly. First let’s review the OP:

Dear Muslims friends,

We, as faithful beleivers of God…would like to know what are the verses
in Quran who speak about love and Peace for every
beleiver, and [human beings] generally.

There are many verses that speak of tolerance, but there are just as many verses which do not. Many of these intolerant verses, as I said, were revealed at a later time, when Mohammad had more power and was beginning to expand his control over the peninsula.

Now first let’s review the first hot-topic passage in the Koran:

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [S. 5:51; Yusuf Ali]

Muslims are instructed not to take Jews or Christians as friends or protectors, and any Muslim who does is working for them and in turn should not be trusted. This is not religious tolerance, and it is not peace and love.

And the second hot-topic passage in the Koran:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; Yusuf Ali]

Unlike previous revelation given by Mohammad, self-defense has been thrown right out the window. Muslims are instructed to fight in war - and when? When they’re attacked? When they’re oppressed? No…fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day…even if if they are the People of the Book. The pretext is a religious reason. And when do you stop fighting these people? When they stop fighting you? No - until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Until they feel “subdued,” or again as some translations put it: “brought low”; “in a state of subjection.” Remember, when you read all of Surat 9, it is clearly military in context - you cannot claim that this one passage happens to be a metaphorical or personal jihad. Yes, I recognize that jihad can be personal, but S. 9:29 is not an example of this. To argue that is to ignore the context.

Again, the jizya was a tax on non-Muslims targeting them specifically for their non-Muslim faith. That is not religious tolerance, and it is not love and peace. Before you perhaps leap to the argument that it was done for their protection, please respond to the question I put before you in a previous post:

I realize Muslims on this forum are common in arguing that it is paying “protection” (as if the tolerant Muslims need money as impedance to protect their non-Muslim citizenry), however, before you argue as such, please respond to this: suppose a western government enacted a tax aimed at Muslims for no other reason other than their being Muslim…would Muslims be OK with that? Would they be OK with the fact that a government made them pay more than non-Muslims simply for their faith? Especially if they specifically said it was to make them feel “subdued” or “brought low”?

On the subject of S. 9:30, it is placed in the Koran as an aftermath of S. 9:29. After being told they are to make war against even the People of the Book, Muslims are told why Allah despises the People of the Book:

The Jews call 'Uzair [Ezra] a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [S. 9:30; Yusuf Ali]

This is not the sign of a God with love, peace nor understanding because, as I said, the Jews do not worship Ezra as the Son of God. If the Koran has peace and love, why does it curse a group of people for something they do not even do? Shouldn’t Allah be aware of this?

Now in further regards to love and peace, there is much to be said of the hadith sources which I cited here. Since you believe there is no contradiction between the ones I gave and the ones you gave, I would therefore like you to answer the question I set before in my previous posts, and tell me where you find love, peace and tolerance in the following:

• Asking God to curse people.
• Cursing other people of faith, then declaring that there shall not exist two religions in Arabia (which his companions interpreted as meaning make war upon them).
• Kicking homosexuals out of your homes.
• Ordering any one who leaves Islam to be killed.
• Pushing Jews and Christians to the side of the road simply for who they are.
• Saying that angels curse a woman simply because she didn’t please her husband sexually.

 

[elwill]

Certainly. First let’s review the OP:

There are many verses that speak of tolerance, but there are just as many verses which do not. Many of these intolerant verses, as I said, were revealed at a later time, when Mohammad had more power and was beginning to expand his control over the peninsula.

Now first let’s review the first hot-topic passage in the Koran:

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [S. 5:51; Yusuf Ali]

Muslims are instructed not to take Jews or Christians as friends or protectors, and any Muslim who does is working for them and in turn should not be trusted. This is not religious tolerance, and it is not peace and love.

And the second hot-topic passage in the Koran:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; Yusuf Ali]

Unlike previous revelation given by Mohammad, self-defense has been thrown right out the window. Muslims are instructed to fight in war - and when? When they’re attacked? When they’re oppressed? No…fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day…even if if they are the People of the Book. The pretext is a religious reason. And when do you stop fighting these people? When they stop fighting you? No - until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Until they feel “subdued,” or again as some translations put it: “brought low”; “in a state of subjection.” Remember, when you read all of Surat 9, it is clearly military in context - you cannot claim that this one passage happens to be a metaphorical or personal jihad. Yes, I recognize that jihad can be personal, but S. 9:29 is not an example of this. To argue that is to ignore the context.

i will try to shrink the discussion by responding to the entire post as whole , and i will try my best to not miss any questions , if i missed something or if i wasnt clear in any of my sesponses then feel welcome to give me your notes . but i have very important questions i need the answers of before responding

first of all i want to know your problem with quran being revealed through 23 years ( the duration of prophethood) according to the events ?

secondly , do you agree with me that we have to backup the historical background which related to the verses of quran before judging on it ?

third question is , what is your defination for God of love ? is that mean that God loves all people , sinners of them and rightious of them , is that mean that he never cursed any one ? didn’t he cursed the antichrist ? is that mean that theire is no punishment for sinners or disbelievers in the hearafter ?

my last question is : according to your understanding for the bible ? what did jesus (pbuh) meant by saying “love your enemy” ? which category of enemity did he meant ? is that include terrorist enemies ? is that mean invadors enemy ? is that involved someone seek to kill your children and your husband ? do you love bin_laden ? do devout christians should to love bin_laden and strive hard to give him the other cheek to please jesus (pbuh)

please , answering of these questions will help me much to understand your point of view , i have to know what these concepts means to you in the first place

and try to make your answer as brief as possible , please

best regards
elwill

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Elwill, I can’t help but notice that you’ve essentially responded to my questions…with more questions. I would appreciate it if you would address what I gave you in the post you yourself quoted.

 

[captainmike]

my last question is : according to your understanding for the bible ? what did jesus (pbuh) meant by saying “love your enemy” ? which category of enemity did he meant ? is that include terrorist enemies ? is that mean invadors enemy ? is that involved someone seek to kill your children and your husband ? do you love bin_laden ? do devout christians should to love bin_laden and strive hard to give him the other cheek to please jesus (pbuh)

yes, we should love terrorists, including bin laden. because we are sinners, we often fail to do this. but we should do so.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

**[85:13] اِنَّ بَطْشَ رَبِّكَ لَشَدِيْدٌؕ‏

[85:13] Surely the seizing of thy Lord is severe**.

---

[85:13] اِنَّهٗ هُوَ يُبْدِئُ وَيُعِيْدُ‌ۚ‏

[85:13] He it is Who originates and reproduces;

---

[85:14] وَهُوَ الْغَفُوْرُ الْوَدُوْدُۙ‏

[85:14] And He is the Most Forgiving, ** the Loving **; ۔

---

[85:15] ذُوْ الْعَرْشِ الْمَجِيْدُ

[85:15] The Lord of the Throne, the Lord of honour;

---

[85:16] فَعَّالٌ لِّمَا يُرِيْدُؕ‏

[85:16] Doer of whatever He wills.

Give me one more semester of Arabic and I will be able to read the above words in arabic like THAT!

 

[elwill]

Elwill, I can’t help but notice that you’ve essentially responded to my questions…with more questions. I would appreciate it if you would address what I gave you in the post you yourself quoted.

respond to my questions briefly , and i promise you that according to your answers i will respond to every question you have ,i just want to understand your rational thinking , i want to unite our concepts first , i’m trying to find common language for the benefits of all

peace

 

[jakasaki]

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf
Elwill, I can’t help but notice that you’ve essentially responded to my questions…with more questions. I would appreciate it if you would address what I gave you in the post you yourself quoted.

respond to my questions briefly , and i promise you that according to your answers i will respond to every question you have ,i just want to understand your rational thinking , i want to unite our concepts first , i’m trying to find common language for the benefits of all

peace

Tag, you’re it Elwill - Byz_Wolf asked you questions for you to respond to.

You, over and over are not responding & providing answers to BW’s questions, instead you ask him more questions.

**So please, answer his questions since he posted first. **

 

[elwill]

yes, we should love terrorists, including bin laden. because we are sinners, we often fail to do this. but we should do so.

may be you fail to do that , but does church encourage christians to love them , did church ever breach for christians to love hamas and taliban and suicide bombers . do you consider yourself sinner christian when you fail to obey jesus and loves bin laden ?

let us suppose that there are devout christians who will suceed to obey jesus and love the terrorist , which means that they should to give them another cheek
in which way can devout christians give another cheek to bin_laden or hamas for example ?

and why you always blame muslims whom are against terrorist becuase they are silence for the acts of terrorist , while you are silence when you find most christians hate enemy ?

i can’t imagine any briest or any church will briech to christians and encourage them to love terrorists and suicide bombers and encourage them to give terrorists another cheek , do you know why ?
because it’s unlogic and unreasonable and it will be foolish command

come on , if you really believe that jesus meant by " enemy " such category of enemity , then where is the voice of church agianst those who try to kill the terrorists ?

 

[elwill]

Tag, you’re it Elwill - Byz_Wolf asked you questions for you to respond to.

You, over and over are not responding & providing answers to BW’s questions, instead you ask him more questions.

**So please, answer his questions since he **posted first.

i will not go to the discussion before we unite our concepts
if we didn’t do that , **so we will never suceed to make constructive discussion **

if any of you refuse to answers this questions , so you can consider it the end of the discussion

 

[jakasaki]

i will not go to the discussion before we unite our concepts
if we didn’t do that , **so we will never suceed to make constructive discussion **

if any of you refuse to answers this questions , so you can consider it the end of the discussion

Elwill, you remind me of a life experience I once was exposed to.

I once had a boss, VP of IT and he would asked this **one **employee a question.

The employee did NOT answer the VP’s questions ever, instead he, the employee asked the VP more questions.

Let me just say that the VP would say to the “employee”…

Damn it!!! Can you answer at least **answer ****ONE **of my questions…!!!

And you can see his jugular vein pop as he was saying this…

Let me just say this “employee” did not survive in the IT industry too long. Terminated!!!

---

B.Wolf asked you questions and you need to provide answers.

In turn you asked questions to his questions to determine your answer to his original questions. Typical muslim response.

Nonsense!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

respond to my questions briefly , and i promise you that according to your answers i will respond to every question you have ,i just want to understand your rational thinking , i want to unite our concepts first , i’m trying to find common language for the benefits of all

if any of you refuse to answers this questions , so you can consider it the end of the discussion

Elwill, you’ve been changing your focus continually during this thread. You respond to the OP poster, so I responded to you within that context. You respond to every single thing I said with, “Well that wasn’t what I was talking about.” Then you say, “OK we’re making long posts, just tell me what points you want to make.” I do so, then you say, “OK, but first answer these questions.” Now you’re demanding people respond to them or you’re leaving.

In the words of Margarete Thatcher: no, no, no.

I have been patient with you throughout this thread. I obliged you when you wanted me to post my arguments in a single post. In return of my accepting your request to post my questions, you responded with more questions. Responding to questions with more questions is one of the oldest logical fallacies in the book. As of now, it is beginning to appear that you simply want to avoid dealing with the real issues. It’s beginning to appear that you don’t have any real arguments to put forward.

***I have presented my questions to you as you requested. I’m not responding to anything outside of this. If you take this subject seriously, please respond to what I have posted in response to you. ***

 

[nohamaria]

i

third question is , what is your defination for God of love ? is that mean that God loves all people , sinners of them and rightious of them , is that mean that he never cursed any one ? didn’t he cursed the antichrist ? is that mean that theire is no punishment for sinners or disbelievers in the hearafter ?

my last question is : according to your understanding for the bible ? what did jesus (pbuh) meant by saying “love your enemy” ? which category of enemity did he meant ? is that include terrorist enemies ? is that mean invadors enemy ? is that involved someone seek to kill your children and your husband ? do you love bin_laden ? do devout christians should to love bin_laden and strive hard to give him the other cheek to please jesus (pbuh)

elwill

First of all , I would like to wish to all the posters a
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Meantime I would try to answer on above 2 questions
when am completely convinced that answering a question
by another question is a very unconvenient manner if not
cowardly one.
God is Love in the meaning that he loves the hole
humanity which is a sinning one from the original
sin of Adam following all other sins.
Since we are all sinners, we don’t have the right
to consider ourselves better than others in the
perfect Eye of God. Hence judgment is not our
business, and when we make it so , we will be
judged by God and we will meet His Justice
instead of His Mercy in the hereafter.
When Jesus tell us to forgive even to our ennemies
His statement means that we can’t approach God
and live in his heavens, if we have the Slightest hate
for anyone.
Jesus never want us to fight others, but he asked us
to save them. He never preached to us to judge others,
but instead to judge ourselves first and correct ourselves
than look to the mistakes of others and pray for them to
convirt.
A beleif who judge others and make wars for
others in the name of God cannot be a trustful
beleif not even to his followers.This is Honestly
said for you. God never need a dead sinner, but he ask
for a convirted one.
And , to tell you the truth, If we don’t forgive to others
their sins , will never be in heavens in the hereafter.

Peace.
Nohamaria

 

[captainmike]

i can’t imagine any briest or any church will briech to christians and encourage them to love terrorists and suicide bombers and encourage them to give terrorists another cheek , do you know why ?
because it’s unlogic and unreasonable and it will be foolish command

first, notice that, with respect to christianity, the challenge is to understand the meaning of verses which require love, peace, and non-violence. conversely, when we lok at the koran, we are trying to understand how a verse which seems to condone, or even require, violence, might somehow mean something else.

second, you’re right, the command to “turn the other cheek” is a difficult one. you say it is “unlogic” [sic] and “unreasonable.” to me, though, one of the great proofs for the divinity of Christ is that so many of his teachings were counterintuitive. love your enemy, turn the other cheek, forgive your brother 70 x 7 times, etc., etc., are not teachings that human beings would have come up with on their own. that’s a powerful proof for the fact that Christ is divine–because only God, not man, could come up with a morality like this.

with respect to the particular verse at hand, “turn the other cheek” obviously could mean a lot of things. the church has taught that it doesn’t mean that we can’t engage in “just wars.” however, war must always be a last resort, must involve as little death and destruction as possible, etc. again, verse like this show why we need a church with teaching authority to interpret them. that’s the catholic church.

 

[planten]

Elwill requested BW to shrink the posts so as to come to some deision. See elwill post #61 below:

elwill to Byzantine_Wolf

can we shrink this long discussion ?
if you have no problem with that , then please refocuse about the most important points you want to discuss with me
and please don’t just try to teach me my religion , if you wanna to know what i believe so you are wellcome
and if you wanna to sidcuss specific issues then focus on it without expanding it

In reply BW sent a very long post #66. That was not what elwill asked for.

Now elwil has asked three questions (post #67) and BW has not replied to any of them. The other Catholic friends are trying to reply in some way (?) BW has backed out. BW has not replied to three questions. The topic concerns some love matter. elwill has asked for the christian definition of L O V E. A reply could be useful.

The latest post #76 from BW also does not help. It only accuses elwill with some bad practices. But no reply is given to elwill.

 

[elwill]

B.W , i’m really in hurry now
so . i will give you just brief example for the reasons which make me need the answers of these questions

you said in your last post

There are many verses that speak of tolerance, but there are just as many verses which do not. Many of these intolerant verses, as I said, were revealed at a later time, when Mohammad had more power and was beginning to expand his control over the peninsula.

so that i asked this question
first of all i want to know your problem with quran being revealed through 23 years ( the duration of prophethood) according to the events ?

and when you said to me

Now first let’s review the first hot-topic passage in the Koran:

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [S. 5:51; Yusuf Ali]
Muslims are instructed not to take Jews or Christians as friends or protectors, and any Muslim who does is working for them and in turn should not be trusted. This is not religious tolerance, and it is not peace and love.

And the second hot-topic passage in the Koran:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; Yusuf Ali]

so that it was important to ask you the second question
secondly , do you agree with me that we have to backup the historical background which related to the verses of quran before judging on it ?

then you said to me

The Jews call 'Uzair [Ezra] a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [S. 9:30; Yusuf Ali]
This is not the sign of a God with love, peace nor understanding because, as I said, the Jews do not worship Ezra as the Son of God. If the Koran has peace and love, why does it curse a group of people for something they do not even do? Shouldn’t Allah be aware of this?

and again , it was important to me to asking my third question
third question is , what is your defination for God of love ? is that mean that God loves all people , sinners of them and rightious of them , is that mean that he never cursed any one ? didn’t he cursed the antichrist ? is that mean that theire is no punishment for sinners or disbelievers in the hearafter ?

i’m very buzy now really , may be i will catch you later
and without expanding the discussion , B.W , you have to answer these questions
if you refused , then it’s the end of the discussion for me , any of other muslims here can continue the argument with you if they want

peace

and thanx for everyone helped to answers my questions , i will read them again later