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Karin
Guest
It is ok…it is not a problem…and I apologize for being “snappy”
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Faith101
Guest
at time, you do not know what you are talking about…that is correct
Muslims believe in One God plus or minus NOTHING. We believe that Jesus Christ, like all the messengers before him, called to the worship of that same ONE God…never claiming divinity (regardless of your interpretations). Whatever of Jesus’s messsage that has reached us now is not the message he taught. Whoever screwed it up along the way…i dont know…you can read a book called “the cross and the crescent” by gerald Dirks to give you an idea. There are many people, muslims and NON-muslims who can show you how the Bible was changed. Thats not my speciality. I am just a slave of God…and i have enough sense to know that claiming divinity to other than God the father is worshiping other than Him alone.
you thought it was “interesting” that more muslims didnt reply to this thread. I replied telling you that if we were to reply to ever so called “poll” showing how intolerant even mainstream muslims are…we would not have time to breathe.
Yes, i do feel they are made up. I am a Muslim, i hang out with other Muslims and we talk HONESTLY about these issues…had i done a poll based on these hoenst conversations…i would not have the same results as the poll you posted.
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here is something my mom told me when i was 5…dont believe everything you read/hear. Dont be like a sponge in front of the TV/newspaper soaking up everything they tell you without processing it.
when some priests were/are molesting young childern…NEVER did it come to my mind that Christianity supported this nonsense.
Fight ignorance with knowledge. IT is not MY job to educate you…it is yours.
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UnworthySoul
Guest
No one wants to accept them? Are you joking? Saying “that is all made up” or saying “you’re taking it out of context” is a cop out of the highest degree. You’re absolutely right I don’t accept it.
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Karin
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UnworthySoul- I never said “it is all made up” or “you are taking it out of context”…but IMO (once again I can be wrong I admit
) it seems that when Muslims give answers to questions it starts a Bible versus Koran or Islam versus Christian debate that at times gets nasty
. This being said…it does go both ways…Christians give answers to questions and the Muslims are not satisfied with the answers. It seems (once again IMO) that while both sides are trying to get the other side to understand some point all they do is instigate each other.
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UnworthySoul
Guest
at time, you do not know what you are talking about…that is correct
According to you. And my reference was to when you so arrogantly accused the early Catholics of making things up as they went along and not knowing what they were talking about. Those self-same Catholics who were already worshipping the One God while Mohammed’s ancestors were still bowing to the Arabian Pagan Moon God.
Muslims believe in One God plus or minus NOTHING.
Good, so do we Catholics. I’m sorry if Mohammed could not get his mind around the concept of Trinity, but that does not give him the right to insult God by denying the Trinity.
We believe that Jesus Christ, like all the messengers before him, called to the worship of that same ONE God…never claiming divinity (regardless of your interpretations).
Interpretation? It’s called basic reading skills.
Whatever of Jesus’s messsage that has reached us now is not the message he taught.
**Who are you to say that? What proof do you have? Your Koran? Sorry friend, but that book was not pieced together until CENTURIES after Christ walked this earth. On the flip side, The New testament was written either by those who WALKED WITH JESUS or under their direct supervision. Further, you claim the Bible is corrupt, and yet I have explained here on numerous occasions that the oldest texts that have been uncovered through archaeology show that the translations we have today are accurate and completely faithful to those ancient pieces of text. You and others here repeatedly ignore this FACT. **
Whoever screwed it up along the way…i dont know…you can read a book called “the cross and the crescent” by gerald Dirks to give you an idea. There are many people, muslims and NON-muslims who can show you how the Bible was changed.
I’m sorry but that is simply not true when it comes to Catholic versions of the Bible. Especially the Vulgate and Douay versions. Accept it or not, it remains fact.
Thats not my speciality. I am just a slave of God…and i have enough sense to know that claiming divinity to other than God the father is worshiping other than Him alone.
**You are a slave to your arrogance. Arrogance perpetuated by the heretical teachings of an illiterate man with a penchant for blood and young girls who thought he knew better than those who walked with Christ Himself. **
According to you. And my reference was to when you so arrogantly accused the early Catholics of making things up as they went along and not knowing what they were talking about. Those self-same Catholics who were already worshipping the One God while Mohammed’s ancestors were still bowing to the Arabian Pagan Moon God.
Muslims believe in One God plus or minus NOTHING.
Good, so do we Catholics. I’m sorry if Mohammed could not get his mind around the concept of Trinity, but that does not give him the right to insult God by denying the Trinity.
We believe that Jesus Christ, like all the messengers before him, called to the worship of that same ONE God…never claiming divinity (regardless of your interpretations).
Interpretation? It’s called basic reading skills.
Whatever of Jesus’s messsage that has reached us now is not the message he taught.
**Who are you to say that? What proof do you have? Your Koran? Sorry friend, but that book was not pieced together until CENTURIES after Christ walked this earth. On the flip side, The New testament was written either by those who WALKED WITH JESUS or under their direct supervision. Further, you claim the Bible is corrupt, and yet I have explained here on numerous occasions that the oldest texts that have been uncovered through archaeology show that the translations we have today are accurate and completely faithful to those ancient pieces of text. You and others here repeatedly ignore this FACT. **
Whoever screwed it up along the way…i dont know…you can read a book called “the cross and the crescent” by gerald Dirks to give you an idea. There are many people, muslims and NON-muslims who can show you how the Bible was changed.
I’m sorry but that is simply not true when it comes to Catholic versions of the Bible. Especially the Vulgate and Douay versions. Accept it or not, it remains fact.
Thats not my speciality. I am just a slave of God…and i have enough sense to know that claiming divinity to other than God the father is worshiping other than Him alone.
**You are a slave to your arrogance. Arrogance perpetuated by the heretical teachings of an illiterate man with a penchant for blood and young girls who thought he knew better than those who walked with Christ Himself. **
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UnworthySoul
Guest
you thought it was “interesting” that more muslims didnt reply to this thread. I replied telling you that if we were to reply to ever so called “poll” showing how intolerant even mainstream muslims are…we would not have time to breathe.
Yes, i do feel they are made up. I am a Muslim, i hang out with other Muslims and we talk HONESTLY about these issues…had i done a poll based on these hoenst conversations…i would not have the same results as the poll you posted.
**First of all, saying your friends would react differently to those questions does not mean all Muslims would react as you do. Second, why is it so hard for you to admit that there are a large number of Muslim clerics who are preaching hate? France, of all places, is deporting 12 of them! I suppose you think they are innocent and being unjustly persecuted? Furthermore, what proof have you that these results are made up? It boggles my mind that you are so convinced that these results just cannot be real. Why? Will you please look around? Radical Islamists are forcing their will on people in Africa as if there was no tomorrow! Catholics, other Christians, Jews, even Animists are being FORCED to submit to their Muslim conquerors on pain of death! Now I have already conceded that Islam CAN be peaceful. Sufi Islam is a perfect example. So what is it about some other sects of Islam, Wahabbism for example, that fosters these Imams to preach hatred? **
**There is no shame in admitting there is a problem, there IS shame in turning a blind eye to it. You seem like a responsible Muslim who is sincere about your faith. I can and do repsect that even if I think you are misguided. So as a responsible Muslim, why would you not admit that there is a problem? **
here is something my mom told me when i was 5…dont believe everything you read/hear. Dont be like a sponge in front of the TV/newspaper soaking up everything they tell you without processing it.
Your mom told you a very wise thing. But the catch is not to dismiss everything you see or read simply because it is hard to accept or because you simply don’t want to believe it. That would be foolhardy.
when some priests were/are molesting young childern…NEVER did it come to my mind that Christianity supported this nonsense.
I would hope not. We Catholics voiced our opinions about it by cutting off support en masse for the people who harbored them. We stopped giving money to those parishes that protected the sick molesting priests. And we shouted from the rooftops that they needed to be held accountable. We took a proactive stance to help make a change.
Fight ignorance with knowledge. IT is not MY job to educate you…it is yours.
**Arrogance again, because as soon as I voice what I have learned, you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about or that I’m making things up. To claim there is no problem when there clearly is, is willful ignorance. That is much worse and much more damaging than true ignorance. **
Yes, i do feel they are made up. I am a Muslim, i hang out with other Muslims and we talk HONESTLY about these issues…had i done a poll based on these hoenst conversations…i would not have the same results as the poll you posted.
**First of all, saying your friends would react differently to those questions does not mean all Muslims would react as you do. Second, why is it so hard for you to admit that there are a large number of Muslim clerics who are preaching hate? France, of all places, is deporting 12 of them! I suppose you think they are innocent and being unjustly persecuted? Furthermore, what proof have you that these results are made up? It boggles my mind that you are so convinced that these results just cannot be real. Why? Will you please look around? Radical Islamists are forcing their will on people in Africa as if there was no tomorrow! Catholics, other Christians, Jews, even Animists are being FORCED to submit to their Muslim conquerors on pain of death! Now I have already conceded that Islam CAN be peaceful. Sufi Islam is a perfect example. So what is it about some other sects of Islam, Wahabbism for example, that fosters these Imams to preach hatred? **
**There is no shame in admitting there is a problem, there IS shame in turning a blind eye to it. You seem like a responsible Muslim who is sincere about your faith. I can and do repsect that even if I think you are misguided. So as a responsible Muslim, why would you not admit that there is a problem? **
here is something my mom told me when i was 5…dont believe everything you read/hear. Dont be like a sponge in front of the TV/newspaper soaking up everything they tell you without processing it.
Your mom told you a very wise thing. But the catch is not to dismiss everything you see or read simply because it is hard to accept or because you simply don’t want to believe it. That would be foolhardy.
when some priests were/are molesting young childern…NEVER did it come to my mind that Christianity supported this nonsense.
I would hope not. We Catholics voiced our opinions about it by cutting off support en masse for the people who harbored them. We stopped giving money to those parishes that protected the sick molesting priests. And we shouted from the rooftops that they needed to be held accountable. We took a proactive stance to help make a change.
Fight ignorance with knowledge. IT is not MY job to educate you…it is yours.
**Arrogance again, because as soon as I voice what I have learned, you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about or that I’m making things up. To claim there is no problem when there clearly is, is willful ignorance. That is much worse and much more damaging than true ignorance. **
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UnworthySoul
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Karin said:UnworthySoul- I never said “it is all made up” or “you are taking it out of context”…but IMO (once again I can be wrong I admit
That is true. But we have no choice but to continue the dialogue. If we do not, then we risk a clash of civilizations more devastating than any isolated terrorist attack.
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Karin
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I agree…!!!
UnworthySoul said:
In regards to the above comment…how can two faiths believe what the other believes as truth? Is that not the whole problem between all major religions (Judiasm, Catholic, and Islam) no one can believe what the other believes? How do you go about accepting something that goes against what you believe?
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UnworthySoul
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The comment about not believing everything you see/read/hear was not about religion. It was about accpeting whatever anyone says as truth in all things. If the newspaper said the sky was made of cement, that would certainly be something not to be believed. But if I am convinced the sky is made of concrete, and someone proves it is not, then prints it in the newspaper (or wherever), while I might not want to believe it, to not believe it would be foolish.
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Karin
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I know but I thought I could apply the comment to a religious aspect.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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It’s also untrue - like Communism, Islam in the West has its “useful idiots” and fellow-travellers, who may well deplore its violence, but who, because they do not realise that Islam is as much a religious problem as a “secular” one, are never going to understand the true sources of its inspiration.
Secularists are incapable of understanding Christianity or Judaism or Islam - as a result, they make many blunders. ##Expecting it not to seek to expand is like expecting the Church to abolish the Mass.
Expecting it to distinguish between “Church” & “State” is impossible - it is a theocratic religion. Shar’ia law is not an aberration - it is the sort of law any state which is Muslim in more than name ought to have. Democracy has no place in Islam - not because Islam is opposed to freedom, but because true freedom consists in submission to the Will of Allah. If Islamofascism is in accord with the Will of Allah, it is the way to freedom - and democracy, is not. What we might call tyranny, is the truer freedom. ##Islam is no different from Communism - except that Communism claims not to be a religion, and Islam does.
Pius XI had this to say:- Hence We wish to expose once more in a brief synthesis the principles of Islam as they are manifested chiefly in Islamofascism. We wish also to indicate its method of action and to contrast with its false principles the clear doctrine of the Church, in order to inculcate anew and with greater insistence the means by which the Christian civilization, the true civitas humana, can be saved from the satanic scourge, and not merely saved, but better developed for the well-being of human society…
I have changed three words into two - just as bolshevism is a satanic plague, so is Islamofascism.
Islam calls for no interior conversion, for its adherents, like all other human beings, are deemed to be born Muslims. To be Muslim is man’s natural state - each man, did he but know it, is an *anima naturaliter Musulmanica: *hence the importance of the absence of a notion of original sin. Conversion is how the “non-Muslim” comes to realise his true identity - as a Muslim.
This page about “Hitler’s Mufti” shows that the murderous spirit of Islamofascism is neither recent, nor untypical, nor repented of. The Grand Mufti was not only fully in favour of the extermination of the Jews by Hitler - he was also the mentor of a certain Yasser Arafat who died a little while ago. Islamofascism is, quite simply, Nazi. And if Nazism is to be resisted, so too must its Islamic manifestations be; there is no point in resisting Hitler tooth and nail, yet capitulating to Islamofascism. Islam has a long history of aggression - no Christian guilt about the past, however fully justified (and Christians have behaved quite vilely at times) can alter this. It is precisely because Christians are meant to behave far better than Muslims, that the sins of Christians are so notable - Christian sin is (all things being equal) worse than Muslim sin, precisely because, for a Christian to resort to the violent form of jihad which is legitimate for a pious Muslim, is to betray one’s Christian calling. The two religions are not fundamentally alike - that they are superficially alike in both having a record of violence, does not make them truly alike in nature or spirit - it shows only that both are capable of outwardly similar acts: which should surprise no one, as complete conversion to Christ is not an instantaneous process.
jihadwatch.org/archives/007499.php
nationalreview.com/29july02/pryce-jones072902.asp
regnery.com/books/mythhitler.html
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mufti2.html ##
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volzcpa
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I agree with this statement, but most Muslims will deny it emphatically. Of course, what would you expect? Another study released early this year from the Center for Religious Freedom was a report called “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques”. Although it focuses upon the U.S., I would expect that these types of publications are being distributed in England as well as other countries where Islam is not the dominating religion.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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I’m afraid that they are. I’m starting to think that the popularity of anti-Jewish frauds such as “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” (a book which is traceable to Russian anti-Jewish feeling) in the Near East is not an accident.
A Muslim refusal to distinguish between “Church” & “State” (to use non-Muslim terms) is intelligible - but it is not very helpful when the conclusion drawn is that Western states must be converted from being (however imperfectly) democratic to being ruled by Sharia law.If there are much-needed distinctions that I’m failing to make, I hope Muslim posters will say as much - if they are being unjustly described, only they can say so convincingly, and only they can really say how they are being unjustly dealt with. ##
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WolfStar777
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Riiiiight. So, chief, how about the nuttier elements of the Christian faith, ranging from your typical loudmouthed morons like Jerry Falwell and John Hagee to your violent extremists like Eric Rudolph? Does this mean we can finally take measures to rid ourselves of these pests? What measures do you recommend, and do they involve flogging with some sort of trout?
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