Peaceful Muslims should be encouraged and facilitated to settle in the U.S.

[paarsurrey]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4850416&postcount=153
Islam Must Be Banned In America

Originally Posted by chrisse:
It can be proven that islam is a political “ism”, if you will.

Originally posted by paarsurrey:

Hi

If as you say it is provable that Islam is not a peaceful belief/faith or religion; kindly prove it from the text and context of Quran. You are most welcome.

My friend Islam has never been a political thing, for sure, in my opinion.

I think, in the present scenario peaceful Muslims seem to have become a sandwitch between the militants and the anti-militants of the world for nothing.

It is to me ,therefore, the responsibility of the humanitarian people of the America to facilitate such peaceful Muslims who are nothing but peaceful; that they should be encouraged and facilitated to settle down in America with most prefrence, in order to win them over.

Peaceful Muslims don’t subscribe to the views of the Militants, for sure, in my opinion.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa

Thanks

 

[LDNCatholic]

Good point Paarsurrey. Nice rebuttal to the other thread.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I think it is an appropriate time that the charitable,steadfast and humane Catholics in America and the peaceful Muslims there to join hands being Theists to work jointly in order to win over the lost Atheists/Agnostics in many numbers their with reasonable arguments and rational thinking which I think the Atheists naturally lack.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India.

Thanks

 

[dzheremi]

Why should they be encouraged to settle outside of their homelands, Paarsurrey? Wouldn’t they be in a better position to affect change among their more militant co-religionists if they are not seen as fleeing to the west? Similar questions have been asked about the Arab (specifically, Palestinian) Christians in other threads, with the idea that if they really cared about the struggle for a free Palestine, they wouldn’t leave under any circumstances. I think this is a foolish and insensitive view myself, but if this is the opinion of enough of the Arab world (that you can’t leave your country and have a valid opinion on it), then couldn’t the same charge be made by the militants against the peaceful Muslims who would leave?

It may not be very Western-rite Catholic of me, but I am big proponent of the idea of the local church being fully integrated into the lives and fabric of a society, rather than there being one macro-church that dictates to everyone (because the “local” way is how I was really introduced to Catholicism, in a dirt poor orphanage in rural Mexico about 15 years ago). By the same token, I would hope that Muslims, no matter where they live, would feel the same. How can the raving lunatics who you say are misrepresenting Islam ever be confronted if everyone who disagrees with them leaves to live more “peaceful” lives in the West?

Have you thought at all of the implications of what you are suggesting? So all the peaceful, pluralism-tolerating, non-violent Muslims will live in the West…what then about the Middle East? It would be an even more violent morass of hatred than it is now. No, my friend. It is not right to suggest that others should leave their country if they have a different ideology or religion. The Christians of Lebanon should not have to leave, the Copts of Egypt should not have to leave, and the liberally-inclined Sufis across the entire region should not have to leave. Notice that I am saying that they should not HAVE to…but when they do, it is often because they feel a deterioration in their position in the whole society (see “We Loved Each Other So Much” documentary, about the effect of the civil war on Lebanese of all religions, for one such example), so that it is no longer safe to remain where they have always been. It is a great tragedy. We ought to see it as a last resort, not something to be encouraged.

 

[chrisse]

Originally Posted by chrisse:
It can be proven that islam is a political “ism”, if you will.

paarsurrey replies : If as you say it is provable that Islam is not a peaceful belief/faith or religion; kindly prove it from the text and context of Quran. You are most welcome.

Firstly, your topic has nothing to do with the discussion we were having. I am discussing the ideology. I would further say in this regard, that Western leaders are politically, and criminally, negligent in not treating Islam as the political ideology that it is. What I want is FULL EXPOSURE of this fascist theocracy for what it is.

Further, we are arguing from two different positions. So let’s see if we can agree to what we are debating.

Well, we would first have to extract the religion of Islam from the geo-political ideology of islam. Once we do that, we could then determine your topic, and the consequent issues therein.

My argument is on the geo-political ideology only; the religious arguments are not a problem - I don’t accept them, but they are within my values valid for debate. And for the record, as I have stated, the religious doctrine of Islam is a heresy.

Now, for me, the religion would be the Medinian surah’s only. From then, when Mohammet went to Mecca, he began his political career which took precedence over his religious mission.

So, if it is accepted that the religion of islam is purely held in the Medinian surah’s, then yes, it is peaceful. We can then continue discussing the geo-political ideology of Islam which is within the Meccan surahs, hadiths and sunnah, which amounts to a fascist theocracy. AND discuss how it would be possible to separate them within the general muslim community.

If this is not accepted, and we must include the Meccan surahs, then no. Islam is a geo-political ideology with a thin veneer of religion.

Either way, Islam itself is over-whelmingly a fascist theocracy; whether you believe the religion is separate or entwined, we have few, if any, examples that show that the religion can exist separate to the fascist theocratic principle (other than in the degree in which it adheres to it) where muslims form the majority of the population.

 

[IrishDude45]

To the OP, yes that sounds good. like…whats that community in Michigan thats overwhelmingly Muslim?

The name had something to do with a deer?

 

[paarsurrey]

Now, for me, the religion would be the Medinian surah’s only. From then, when Mohammet went to Mecca, he began his political career which took precedence over his religious mission.

Hi

Kindly make a little correction. The peaceful and truthful Messenger Muhammad was born in Mecca and lived there for 13 years after his appointment as Messenger from GodAllahYHWH; under most hostile conditions.

Then as commanded/allowed by GodAllahYHWH, first his persecuted followers migrated to Medina; and in the end alongwith his friend Abu Bakr ,Muhammad migrated to Medina.

I think you have mentioned Mecca instead of Medina; and vice versa in your above passage.

If you agree with this correction; then you want the Medina chapters of Quran to be discussed. Am I right?

Peace

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India

Thanks

 

[chrisse]

Hi

Kindly make a little correction. The peaceful and truthful Messenger Muhammad was born in Mecca and lived there for 13 years after his appointment as Messenger from GodAllahYHWH; under most hostile conditions.

Then as commanded/allowed by GodAllahYHWH, first his persecuted followers migrated to Medina; and in the end alongwith his friend Abu Bakr ,Muhammad migrated to Medina.

I think you have mentioned Mecca instead of Medina; and vice versa in your above passage.

If you agree with this correction; then you want the Medina chapters of Quran to be discussed. Am I right?

Peace

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India

Thanks

lol, I was reading about the Constitution of Medina at the time I was writing my post as well.

Yes, that is correct, thanks for the correction.

Editing here, I’m saying that the only way I could consider the religion of Islam peaceful is if the religion is considered to be the Meccan revelations only. If the claim is that both the Meccan and Medina revelations are also the religion, then, no, it is not peaceful. The Medina revelations are not peaceful, and abrogated most of the Meccan revelations.

 

[dzheremi]

Perhaps you’re thinking of Dearborn, MI, Irishdude? There are some 30,000 Arab-Americans there, and they’re the oldest continuous community of Arabs in the USA (since ~1900). Historically, most have been Lebanese and Syrian Christians, though as the demographics of immigrants from the middle east are changing, that is changing too, and now it is home to many Muslims from all over the Arab world. There are additionally many Armenians there (all Christians, as the overwhelming majority of Armenians are) who wound up there as a result of the Armenian genocide.

 

[IrishDude45]

thats the one.

 

[paarsurrey]

How can the raving lunatics who you say are misrepresenting Islam ever be confronted .

Hi

Due to, and to avoid, the huge collateral damage of human innocent lives of children, women, and other peacefful persons, presently suffering because of the advanced war-machinery of the West.

The Militants are safe; the peaceful are being killed, instead.

I don’t say that the peaceful Muslims should be forced to migrate; I am talking of facilitating them, if they apply for it.

The peaceful people would always adopt the peaceful methods and won’t prefer to become unpeaceful under any circumstances.

This is a moral responsibility of the West, I think.

Sorry, I won’t discuss politics; I am talking of the human side of the problem only, in my opinion.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

lol, I was reading about the Constitution of Medina at the time I was writing my post as well.

Yes, that is correct, thanks for the correction.

Editing here, I’m saying that the only way I could consider the religion of Islam peaceful is if the religion is considered to be the Meccan revelations only. If the claim is that both the Meccan and Medina revelations are also the religion, then, no, it is not peaceful. The Medina revelations are not peaceful, and abrogated most of the Meccan revelations.

Hi

Thanks. So, you want Meccan chapters? Kindly mention clearly.

Regards

 

[dzheremi]

I disagree that it is the moral responsibility of the US or UK to shelter everyone who comes to it, no matter what their religion is (since many conflicts are not the “fault” of western nations to begin with, and often times it is the most talented people who can afford to leave in the first place, which makes reconstruction and peace negotations difficult to sustain). However, I do agree that we have thus far done an apalling job at dealing with the crisis largely created by the Iraq war that we started. An Iraqi-Canadian friend of mine runs a blog about the plight of Iraqi refugees, and some of the statistics and stories she finds are absolutely mindblowing (in a very, very bad way). From a story that laments the number of Iraqi refugees taken in by the UK in 2007 (24 of an estimated 295 referred there by UNHCR; this is well below the UK government’s stated goal of resettling 200 per year), she shows some very misplaced priorities of some well-meaning American people:

At this rate Britain might also be outdone by American efforts at helping a different kind of Iraqi. Baghdadpups has been helping US forces who have befriended Iraqi animals on their tour and just can’t leave them behind, and will rescue your animal of choice from tough Baghdad streets and bring it to the safety of an American home for the low low price of $4000(US.) Each. The site operates solely on donations from the public and to date they have raised enough money to rescue at least 14 dogs and cats which are featured on their site so far, brought over in the four months since February 08, with claims of many more to come whose identity will be revealed once they have arrived in the US. If they can keep up this rate it’ll put the satire at dogoriraqi.com on a whole other level.

Save the dogs? Really? I am not against dogs, but I am certainly more concerned about people! Something should certainly be done for them first. I hope we can all agree on that.

If you or anyone else is interested in reading more about the plight of Iraqi refugees, the blog in question is called Forget Baghdad.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4850416&postcount=153
Islam Must Be Banned In America

Peaceful Muslims don’t subscribe to the views of the Militants, for sure, in my opinion.

Gabriel of 12;

This is the point paarsurrey, **from your opinion **Peaceful Muslims dont subscribe to views of the Militants. I am grateful to hear this from a Muslim, but does Islam religion share your opinion?

I would pray your opinion does not remain an opinion and become a reality of Islam.

Does Islam consider peaceful Christians and enemy of peaceful Muslims?

Now grant it the East has a mindset of the Christian West, and the Christian West has a mind set of the Eastern Muslim Countries.

Speaking from a western mindset, according to the “Islam” religion concensus; Christians are considered enemies of Islam by Muslim standards. And a Muslim is justified for Lying to an enemy of Islam by deception.

That said, how can one determine the difference from a Muslim who follows the “Quran” of decieving his enemies to convert or destroy them, from a peaceful Muslim who "should be encouraged and facilitated to settle in the U.S. Who also believes in the “Quran” that teaches justice in lying or decieving its enemies?

Another question I have? Why do Eastern Muslims consider Christians enemies of Islam?

 

[paarsurrey]

Peaceful Muslims don’t subscribe to the views of the Militants, for sure, in my opinion.

Gabriel of 12;

This is the point paarsurrey, **from your opinion **Peaceful Muslims dont subscribe to views of the Militants. I am grateful to hear this from a Muslim, but does Islam religion share your opinion?

I would pray your opinion does not remain an opinion and become a reality of Islam.

Does Islam consider peaceful Christians and enemy of peaceful Muslims?

Now grant it the East has a mindset of the Christian West, and the Christian West has a mind set of the Eastern Muslim Countries.

Speaking from a western mindset, according to the “Islam” religion concensus; Christians are considered enemies of Islam by Muslim standards. And a Muslim is justified for Lying to an enemy of Islam by deception.

That said, how can one determine the difference from a Muslim who follows the “Quran” of decieving his enemies to convert or destroy them, from a peaceful Muslim who "should be encouraged and facilitated to settle in the U.S. Who also believes in the “Quran” that teaches justice in lying or decieving its enemies?

Another question I have? Why do Eastern Muslims consider Christians enemies of Islam?

Hi

Naturally that point would be discussed. It is already being dicussed here with friend chrisse and others. Would you like to discuss from Meccan Chapters of Quran or Medina Chapters of Quran. Others are also welcome to discuss it.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India

Thanks

 

[dzheremi]

Would you like to discuss from Meccan Chapters of Quran or Medina Chapters of Quran. Others are also welcome to discuss it.

Personally, I would like for you to put the Qur’an away for a while and think using the brain that Allah gave you. Anyone can point to the same verses in the Qur’an over and over again about how there is no compulsion in religion, about how Christians are a respected “People of the Book” (we do not like this term, by the way; we are people of faith in God! The book came later, out of the tradition of that faith), or whatever else that will make Islam look good. This proves nothing.

I would instead like to discuss by looking at the world today and specifically at the treatment of Muslim minorities in the west and contrasting it with the treatment of Christian minorities in the Middle East. If you close the book and open your eyes and your heart, we can proceed and maybe understand each other better. Reliance on the Qur’an is what creates our problems to begin with, because it is not possible to reason with a book. You are a human being. We can talk to you. Use your own voice for once. If Islam is really about peace and love, speak about that from your own life and your own actions, not from the examples in the Qur’an for which we can all provide many counter-examples, which makes all of our conversations useless.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would instead like to discuss by looking at the world today and specifically at the treatment of Muslim minorities in the west and contrasting it with the treatment of Christian minorities in the Middle East.

Hi

That would be a political discussion; already being discussed or not discussed, it is out of the scope of this purely religious and moral forum. Kindly discuss it with the politicians, if you may.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India

Thanks

 

[dzheremi]

Hahahaha. My friend, that is a new low. A “political discussion”? How else are we to move forward? Tell me, good sir, is a “political” matter that apostates from Islam are ordered to be murdered for their decision, as per hadith? I think it is. Furthermore, I think the reason why issues such as these NEED to be discussed (sooner rather than later) is because there is no real separation between the religious and the political - not in Christianity and certainly not Islam, which does not have a distinction between civil law and religious law to begin with!

Surely, Jesus ordered us to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which is God’s. This provides the basis for the separation of Church and State in most Western countries of the Judeo-Christian tradition. But did you ever stop to think how it is that your faith effects your daily life? Do you live in a bubble perhaps, where you just pray all day and no dimension of the world affects you? I know I don’t, so in my life, my faith actually informs (in fact, forms the basis of) my moral and political decisions. My faith says “give money to that homeless man on the corner” or “don’t sign that petition to provide abortions to anyone who wants them”, or any number of other things. My faith is personal, spiritual, political…it is truly all-encompassing. Islam is not the only religion that is also a “system” of life.

It seems to me, Paarsurrey, that you only want to say “that is a political discussion! It is outside the scope of this forum!” because you are unwilling or unable to recognize the political dimension of Islam as the driving force in its relations with the rest of the world. But that is indeed the reality of our dialogue, and until you come to see it as reality we cannot have any REAL conversation about substantive issues.

The political/religious laws of Islam (keeping in mind that boundry between the two types is not there in the Muslim world) are those that subjugate us, by providing a legal framework for our “dhimmi” status, so that we will pay the Muslim leaders the jizya, or in a modern context where that can’t happen, so that we will acquiesce to their every desire and whim because they know that we know that they hold the fates of their indigenous Christian minorities in their hands. We must not ever offend them and we must keep buying their oil and their propaganda, or else we might start seeing real trouble. Let’s all sign the “common word” propaganda letter that calls us to renounce our faith in exchange for a minimum of “tolerance” wrapped in a suffocating blanket of subjugation for anyone who dares demand their GOD-GIVEN rights! :nope:

NO, sir. Either deal with the political reality that Islam itself has foisted upon the world in its attempt to dominate every corner of it or stop making threads on this board. A true discussion of what separates us must deal with these issues. I am not interested in surface level discussions of very important issues just so that you can avoid having to look at your religion’s nastier elements.

 

[chrisse]

paarsurrey, you are an ahmadi and from what I know, they are peaceful people. Do you support the ummah and the implementation of shariah as the civil law as the basis of society?

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey, you are an ahmadi and from what I know, they are peaceful people. Do you support the ummah and the implementation of **shariah as the civil law **as the basis of society?

Hi

Where in Quran you have found the mention of “Shariah Law”? Please; Quran is the foremost source of guidance of Muslims, whatever the denomination.

I love Jesus, Mary and Mother Teresa of India

Thanks