Pedophiles and homosexuals

[Sonic]

Sonic:thanks.So am I right in saying that you agree that homosexuality can’t be justiffied by saying it s genetic?That is a definite choice which a person makes to engage in sex with a person of the same gender?That homosexuals are not born?

I believe the studies on sexuality are inherently in need of reexamination in the realm of sexology. I believe we know much more about homosexuality then we do pedophilia (due to lack of accurate studies).

I also agree with the Church’s stance on the subject as stated in the CCC. The conditions leading to Same Sex Attraction is a mystery (due to the variety of reasons that can formulated it in a person), but homosexuality is clearly defined as a “choice of action” concerning “who” a person chooses to have “sex” with.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

Sonic:thanks.So am I right in saying that you agree that homosexuality can’t be justiffied by saying it s genetic?That is a definite choice which a person makes to engage in sex with a person of the same gender?That homosexuals are not born?

It is true that in sins of the sexual order, in view of their kind and their causes, it more easily happens that free consent is not fully given; this is a fact which calls for caution in all judgment as to the subject’s responsibility. In this matter it is particularly opportune to recall the following words of Scripture: “Man looks at appearances but God looks at the heart.”[25] However, although prudence is recommended in judging the subjective seriousness of a particular sinful act, it in no way follows that one can hold the view that in the sexual field mortal sins are not committed.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

 

[valentino]

Valentino, I know absolutely what you are saying, and I’ve probably said it before myself on this forum. Except that I wouldn’t and can’t use myself as an example.

Do schizophrenics choose to be schizophrenic? Do alcoholics choose to be alcoholic? There might be some choices involved, but for a large part, these things are not considered a choice.

You must also remember that pedophilia is not even explicitly mentioned in the Bible. If you are an adult male that likes boys, you are a homosexual. If you do naughty things to young girls, you are a fornicator, but with a twist, perhaps.

By the way, you should ask the mod to move your thread to Apologetics, Moral Theology, or Family Life, or something like that, since you were naughty, and didn’t link to the mandatory news article required for the World news forum.

Now, for the matter of the question of children giving consent. Don’t be too eager to say that no one can say that children do not give consent. It has been said. Lindsay Ashford has said so. Use extreme caution in doing a web search on his name. What has been seen, cannot be unseen. It can be traumatic to see that guy.

thanks for answering my post.first I want to say im not a pedophile if that wasn/t clear.Now schziphrenia and alcoholism are entirely different.Schzio is a mentally disordered condition which isnll’t genetic IMO but developed in childhood in which the child is incapable of dealing with reality.He has a false impression of people,society,and the world around him.No alcoholic becomes an alcoholic unless he of his own free will picks up a drink.Alcohol is a drug and can be come addictive.Alcohol is used as a crutch and it relieves the stress of whatever it is that causes it.he becomes dependent on that crutch because it seems to him that he is handling all his problems.He handles them all except one.His addiction to alcohol.When He decides to quit all his previous problems he failed to face come back in a rush.So he’s worse off than in the beginning.Now he really needs a drink.To stop he needs alot of help.

 

[karebear92]

I believe homosexuality is a disordered form of sexuality. I believe sexuality is given to us from God to procreate and unite husband and wife, and it is twisted by Satin or Satanic beings to temp humans to sin. Like many things in this world, God gave them for us to do good, and, since Satin can’t create bad things, he twists the good that God has given us

thanks.In stating my view I don’t see how an increase in a hormone can produce a person to be homosexual.It may affect his development(he may be more or less hairy,or he may have larger breasts than normal,ect.)but I don’t agree that it can change his mind as to which sex he prefers.If i had large breasts due to estrogen how could my large breasts cause me to identify with being a female.And if it were possible it would still depend on my decision if I wanted to actually act like a female and seek male friends for sex.

Honestly, I don’t believe homosexuality is caused from this either. I was more trying to show the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia from a scientific viewpoint. If it were from a Catholic viewpoint, the argument wouldn’t be valid, as both are unacceptable to us.

Here is one example of the androgen hormone levels and sexuality. It is the third part. They basically say that sex hormones create a difference in length of the proportion of ring and index fingers. Males typically have a longer ring finger than index finger, whereas females are approximately the same length. Homosexuals had a tendency to have the opposite of their normal finger proportions (most often with females).

unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html

Basically, I think that some scientists believe that it happens early on in development and can trigger a response that causes them to develop differently. I am pretty sure that this can sometimes cause developmental problems such as ambiguous genitalia and hermaphrodite issues. If, rather than affecting genital development, it affected the brain, it could possibly result in homosexuality. I don’t really agree with this though, but I am not a scientist, so who am I to say. I also find it hard to believe that there is a gene that would result in homosexuality. It would most likely be a gene carried on the mother’s X chromosome, but that would most likely result in a similar ratio of color-blindmess. But it would then be highly unlikely for a female to be homosexual. I am not an expert, however. I should have said that in my first response. I am sure there are other theories. Personally I believe they are a disordered form of a good thing God gave us: sexuality. In other words, God gave us sexuality to procreate, and Satin twists it in some people in order to lead them into sin and temptation.

 

[karebear92]

Sorry, I accidentally added the first paragraph near the end to make my stance more clear. Te quote is supposed to come after that.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

This is not a news article. Why is it posted here? And, no offense, but reading the OP is rather disturbing. Perhaps there could have been a better way to introduce this debate…

 

[Dawnia]

thanks for answering my post.first I want to say im not a pedophile if that wasn/t clear.Now schziphrenia and alcoholism are entirely different.Schzio is a mentally disordered condition which isnll’t genetic IMO but developed in childhood in which the child is incapable of dealing with reality.He has a false impression of people,society,and the world around him.

I think you’re confusing schizophrenia with other disorders. Schizophrenia can involve brain abnormalities and is known to run in families. And it doesn’t always manifest in childhood. It doesn’t have anything to do with not being able to handle reality.

To add another element to the pedophilia discussion. About a quarter of pedophiles aren’t adults and 40% of children under age 6 are abused by other children. And the average offender begins abusing children at age 15. Should these children be treated differently than adults if we know that they will go on to become adult offenders?

Research says that pedophiles can’t be changed, so what do we do with them? Lock them up and throw away the key? Set up monasteries in Siberia where they can live out there lives chastely?

As compared to homosexuality there are marked differences. Two adult homosexuals while I don’t agree that they aren’t harmed by the activity, are able to consent and understand the risks of their actions. Children don’t have the forethought to understand the consequences of their actions.

 

[Newbie2]

Then heterosexuals are born inherently sinful too, and might make the same claim in their defence.

But given that not everything that is done after the Fall is necessarily morally wrong, how can we judge morality? I think the ultimate measurement of the moral value of an action is the degree of love with which it is conducted. Saint Teresa of Avila herself said: ‘It is love alone that gives worth to all things.’

Is having sex with a child done out of love? No. Can sex between any two adults in a committed relationship express love? Yes, in my opinion, whether they are gay, bi or straight.

The love argument that you’ve made is pure BS. A pedophile could claim that having sex with a child is done out of love, and there is no way that one could prove otherwise, as we could not get inside their head or heart and discern their motivation.

No, Pedophilia is morally wrong, as others have pointed out, as such is not sex between two consenting, married heterosexual adults.

if a homosexual can base his homosexuality on genetics why can’t a pedophile or a person who commits incest?Why can’t this pedophile say “I want this government to do research and see if im not born a pedophile and its not my fault”?it hasn’t happened yet but who would have thought 50yrs ago that homosexuality would be deemed ok by such a large amount of people?Are you saying this can’t possibly happen?Im saying any perversion that this country wishes to allow (homosexuality)can lead to others wanting their perversions to be allowed.The pedophile may argue that homosexuality is born in the individual and his pedophilia is born in his genetic material.The isssue of incest was brought up not to long ago and there was a debate whether the parent had the right to violate his child or not.

The inclination to sin, either by fornication, adultry, homosexual sex, pedophilic sex, whatever sinful sex is simply that…an inclination. Inclinations are not in themselves sinful. A pedophile could justifiably claim that he (or she?) was born with such an inclination, just as someone with a SSA could do so. Morally, it’s irreleveant.

It’s the acts that are sinful. Being a chaste homosexual peson is not a sin. Being a pedophile who has never acted on his or her inclination is not sinful either. When one gives in to sinful inclinations, whatever they are, that is sinful.

 

[James1215]

thank for responding.Now i say of course men can love one another.We are suppose to.i love my brother and possible sacrifice myself for him.But that doesn’t mean I have the right(its moral) to engage in sex with him or another male.Sexual relations have to be ordered.God says they have to be ordered.Since you don’t believe in God I understand you taking a different view than mine.EXplain what you are saying?heterosexuals can make the same defense?Defense that they were born heterosexual ?

I meant that if one were to say that much/all human nature post-Fall is corrupted, one would equally have to justify heterosexuality. At first it seems obvious that Adam and Eve were heterosexuals, but were they? They didn’t have sex until after the Fall, and this was sex for conception, when pregnancy and labour were created as punishment. So these very things which I thought were taken to indicate the moral correctness of straight sex, are in fact tainted with the same Original Sin. However, what Adam and Eve showed before the Fall was companionship, and this is the basis I believe for romantic love that comes from both homo and hetero orientations.

 

[valentino]

CatholicBoy 1957:you say in concerns to sexual matters full consent is not usually given.or did you say free will?No matter.Explain what you mean please or better give an example.

 

[James1215]

thank again.we differ.I don;t believe they are unchosen states.Is a murderer born a murderer?is it an unchosen state?How do you knnow if there is not some genetic determinant for murderers?If you believe this than no one is responsible for anything he does and we should seek some chemical to cure or stop his behavior.Since your an athiest i understand you I believe.You believe all the things man does is in his genes.right.that man is in reality not able to make free choices.

The Church seems to think that homosexuality is indeed an unchosen state, it is gay sex that is condemned. Murder is substantially different, as I don’t think there has to be a condition one has in order to kill - many reasons, changing factors, impulse, spur of the moment. But heterosexuals (me included) do not find gay sex tempting, because we lack the necessary condition.

I don’t think everything is determined by genes, but genes are important. As to free will, I think the freedom is constrained in innumerable ways by various factors, but I think it still exists. I’ve frequently brought up Daniel Dennett on several threads to the point that I bore myself writing it, but he argues for a naturalistic account of how freedom evolved in people. So genetics can cause free will.

 

[valentino]

I meant that if one were to say that much/all human nature post-Fall is corrupted, one would equally have to justify heterosexuality. At first it seems obvious that Adam and Eve were heterosexuals, but were they? They didn’t have sex until after the Fall, and this was sex for conception, when pregnancy and labour were created as punishment. So these very things which I thought were taken to indicate the moral correctness of straight sex, are in fact tainted with the same Original Sin. However, what Adam and Eve showed before the Fall was companionship, and this is the basis I believe for romantic love that comes from both homo and hetero orientations.

Well pregnancy and labor were not created as punishment.God said:I will increase your pain in childbearing"and God said be fruitful and multiply.I see your pt.your infiring that God was going to have Adam and Eve have children before the Fall necessarily.Well that’s something I can’t answer because the bible doesn/t tell us what was man’s fate if he hadn’t have sinned.But why on earth would one suppose Adam was homosexual?What would be God’s pt.in that?Why make them to different sexes in the first place ?Why not give Adam another Adam?How do you know what they showed?It says hardly anything about their behavior?

 

[Newbie2]

I meant that if one were to say that much/all human nature post-Fall is corrupted, one would equally have to justify heterosexuality. At first it seems obvious that Adam and Eve were heterosexuals, but were they? They didn’t have sex until after the Fall, and this was sex for conception, when pregnancy and labour were created as punishment. So these very things which I thought were taken to indicate the moral correctness of straight sex, are in fact tainted with the same Original Sin. However, what Adam and Eve showed before the Fall was companionship, and this is the basis I believe for romantic love that comes from both homo and hetero orientations.

Seriously? I can’t believe I’m responding to this tripe, but here goes:

Read Genesis. It’s pretty clear about Adam and Eve. There is no evidence to support that they did not have sexual relations before the fall, nor is there anything remotely close to questioning whether or no they were heterosexual.

Please show us where pregnancy was created as a punishment. (Hint: it’s not in the bible.)

 

[James1215]

Newbie2,

You say: ‘The love argument that you’ve made is pure BS. A pedophile could claim that having sex with a child is done out of love, and there is no way that one could prove otherwise, as we could not get inside their head or heart and discern their motivation.’

But this is not true, as it is not my argument that love can happen in only one out of the two people present. Love is about caring for the other person and wanting to please them. It is very easy to prove that the victim is not experiencing love.

 

[valentino]

Valentino, I know absolutely what you are saying, and I’ve probably said it before myself on this forum. Except that I wouldn’t and can’t use myself as an example.

Do schizophrenics choose to be schizophrenic? Do alcoholics choose to be alcoholic? There might be some choices involved, but for a large part, these things are not considered a choice.

You must also remember that pedophilia is not even explicitly mentioned in the Bible. If you are an adult male that likes boys, you are a homosexual. If you do naughty things to young girls, you are a fornicator, but with a twist, perhaps.

By the way, you should ask the mod to move your thread to Apologetics, Moral Theology, or Family Life, or something like that, since you were naughty, and didn’t link to the mandatory news article required for the World news forum.

Now, for the matter of the question of children giving consent. Don’t be too eager to say that no one can say that children do not give consent. It has been said. Lindsay Ashford has said so. Use extreme caution in doing a web search on his name. What has been seen, cannot be unseen. It can be traumatic to see that guy.

thanks for the advice on which thread to post.I’ve always understood that adult men who like boys was a pedophile if the boy was under a certain age,and adult men who did naughy things to young girls was a pedophile.And a fornicator was some one who engaged in sex while not being married.

 

[James1215]

On pregnancy and labour as punishment, look at Genesis 3:16. Excuse the online translation, but it will do:

‘To the woman he said,
‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,’

God created woman to keep man company (not a controversial interpretation)

Man and woman would be one flesh, but Adam did not ‘know’ Eve until after the Fall, when Eve bore Cain.

It is my interpretation that Adam and Eve did not show sexual attraction before the Fall.

 

[Newbie2]

Newbie2,

You say: ‘The love argument that you’ve made is pure BS. A pedophile could claim that having sex with a child is done out of love, and there is no way that one could prove otherwise, as we could not get inside their head or heart and discern their motivation.’

But this is not true, as it is not my argument that love can happen in only one out of the two people present. Love is about caring for the other person and wanting to please them. It is very easy to prove that the victim is not experiencing love.

How could you prove that?

How do you define “experiencing love”?

Is love always a mutual event?

Is is impossible to believe that a pedophile would erroneously believe that love was experienced by both (him or herself) projected toward the child, or that the pedophile’s motivation was (again erroneously) love?

How does the pedophile define “love”? Who says taht the pedophile is not out to please both him or herself and the child as well?

“Done out of love” would seem to indicate that “love” is the motivation for the pedophile’s acts, no?

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

CatholicBoy 1957:you say in concerns to sexual matters full consent is not usually given.or did you say free will?No matter.Explain what you mean please or better give an example.

Keep in mind that those are not my words, but rather, the words of the Roman Curia. I believe they are referring to one of the three conditions necessary for gravely serious sin to become mortal.

it more easily happens that free consent is not fully given

 

[Newbie2]

On pregnancy and labour as punishment, look at Genesis 3:16. Excuse the online translation, but it will do:

‘To the woman he said,
‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,’

Which says nothing about pregnancy being a punishment, only the pain of childbirth, which presumably would not have been painful had not the fall occured.

God created woman to keep man company (not a controversial interpretation)

Man and woman would be one flesh, but Adam did not ‘know’ Eve until after the Fall, when Eve bore Cain.

Evidence? The bible is silent on this. The bible does not say "the first time Adam and Eve “did it”, Cain was conceived.

It is my interpretation that Adam and Eve did not show sexual attraction before the Fall.

Then how was the world to be populated? It follows from your interpretation, then, that God only intended there to be only Adam and Eve; 2 people on the earth. Oh, and designing them with a reproductive system? Why would that have been?

No, there are too many holes in your theory. Nice try.

 

[James1215]

Newbie2,

I mean acting out of love is seeking to produce feelings of love or loving emotion in another. If the other is actually suffering, this is enough to cast extreme doubt on the truth of the pedophile’s good intentions. But where both people in a couple experience loving emotion and seek to generate this in the other, there is no comparison to pedophilia.

So yes, love is a mutual event - between people who know each other well enough to create intimacy. It is possible that a pedophile could be deluded and believe their victim was responding as if in love, but this would be no defence when an outsider can see suffering. I also think our capacity to perceive suffering is as genuine as our capacity to see another in love.