C
catharina
Guest
Will you clarify your source, please. ASAP. Thank you.
- Status
C
catharina
Guest
Yet you are trusting Noonan with quoting Cardinal Law accurately? Is that correct?
N
Neithan
Guest
I suppose
But actions are louder than words, anyway, and his actions speak for themselves.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Beautifully stated. Thank you!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
‘Just as these ministers want the chalice in which they offer this sacrifice to be clean, so I demand that they themselves be clean in heart and soul and mind…I do not want them feeding and wallowing in the mire of impurity, nor bloated with pride in their hankering after high office, nor cruel to themselves and their neighbors…’
The passage goes on what the Lord intends the priest to be – generous, charitable, moved by love for the Lord’s honor, and for the salvation of souls. And that we can never repay a priest in material possessions for what he has given us.
The Lord goes on to say that ‘this sin of those who persecute holy Church is graver than any other sin, and why it is my will the sins of the clergy should not lessen your reverence for them. … Because the reverence you pay to them is not actually paid to them but to me, in virtue of the blood I have entrusted to their ministry.’ He exhorts us to revere them not for themselves, but for the authority He has entrusted to them. ‘Therefore you must not sin against them but against me. This I have forbidden and I have said that it is my will that no one should touch them.’
'For this reason no one has excuse to say, ‘I am doing no harm, nor am I rebelling against Holy Church. I am simply acting against the sins of evil pastors." …If they would look, they could see that they are persecuting not these ministers, but the blood. It is me they assault, just as it was me they reverenced. To me redounds every assault they make on my ministers: derision, slander, disgrace, abuse. Whatever is done to them I count as done to me. For I have said and I say it again: No one is to touch my christs. It is my right to punish them, and no one else’s.’
There are several pages…and I came to the part I marked,
‘I have made them so free, in fact, that it has never been my will, nor is it now (after describing all sorts of clergy sins) that any civil authority should presume to sit in judgment over them.’ And, ‘Superiors are the cause of these and many other evils because they do not keep their eyes on their subjects…He talks of the great evils in religious congregations…‘They (superiors) regard as transgressors those who are sincerely observing the rule, because they do not hold to the customs and ceremonies these others have ordained and observe in the sight of seculars so as to impress them and thus cloak their sins…’ There is the break of the vow of obedience, then voluntary poverty and then the breaking of the vow of celibacy.’
‘Superiors ought to choose (for the priesthood) men who are learned and virtuous, and who know and understand what they are saying…but these wretches do the opposite…’
We are to pray and do penance for our priests…and to work for reform…I am reviewing so many pages, that it is better to ask all of you to read this chapter of Catherine’s book. It is purifying to read it. We must pray for good and holy shepherds. So there is an issue of the wrong people becoming ordained, faulty administration, and the encroachment of the secular world to handle errant and abusive priests.
This book was written in the latter 1300’s and Catherine died at the age of 33, the same as Our Lord’s.
My source is from St. Catherine of Siena’s, ‘The Dialogue’, ‘The Mystic Body of Holy Church’. This book is so powerful and so much in union with God, that to read it and then look at comments everywhere about the church, including my own, they are not touching on the greater reality of the problem in the Church.
The passage goes on what the Lord intends the priest to be – generous, charitable, moved by love for the Lord’s honor, and for the salvation of souls. And that we can never repay a priest in material possessions for what he has given us.
The Lord goes on to say that ‘this sin of those who persecute holy Church is graver than any other sin, and why it is my will the sins of the clergy should not lessen your reverence for them. … Because the reverence you pay to them is not actually paid to them but to me, in virtue of the blood I have entrusted to their ministry.’ He exhorts us to revere them not for themselves, but for the authority He has entrusted to them. ‘Therefore you must not sin against them but against me. This I have forbidden and I have said that it is my will that no one should touch them.’
'For this reason no one has excuse to say, ‘I am doing no harm, nor am I rebelling against Holy Church. I am simply acting against the sins of evil pastors." …If they would look, they could see that they are persecuting not these ministers, but the blood. It is me they assault, just as it was me they reverenced. To me redounds every assault they make on my ministers: derision, slander, disgrace, abuse. Whatever is done to them I count as done to me. For I have said and I say it again: No one is to touch my christs. It is my right to punish them, and no one else’s.’
There are several pages…and I came to the part I marked,
‘I have made them so free, in fact, that it has never been my will, nor is it now (after describing all sorts of clergy sins) that any civil authority should presume to sit in judgment over them.’ And, ‘Superiors are the cause of these and many other evils because they do not keep their eyes on their subjects…He talks of the great evils in religious congregations…‘They (superiors) regard as transgressors those who are sincerely observing the rule, because they do not hold to the customs and ceremonies these others have ordained and observe in the sight of seculars so as to impress them and thus cloak their sins…’ There is the break of the vow of obedience, then voluntary poverty and then the breaking of the vow of celibacy.’
‘Superiors ought to choose (for the priesthood) men who are learned and virtuous, and who know and understand what they are saying…but these wretches do the opposite…’
We are to pray and do penance for our priests…and to work for reform…I am reviewing so many pages, that it is better to ask all of you to read this chapter of Catherine’s book. It is purifying to read it. We must pray for good and holy shepherds. So there is an issue of the wrong people becoming ordained, faulty administration, and the encroachment of the secular world to handle errant and abusive priests.
This book was written in the latter 1300’s and Catherine died at the age of 33, the same as Our Lord’s.
My source is from St. Catherine of Siena’s, ‘The Dialogue’, ‘The Mystic Body of Holy Church’. This book is so powerful and so much in union with God, that to read it and then look at comments everywhere about the church, including my own, they are not touching on the greater reality of the problem in the Church.
C
catharina
Guest
Uh huh. Did I miss something?
What is the actual NAME of this biography?
Thank you again.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Just clarified…
I read this in the mid 1980’s…and I can’t do justice to the chapter. There is so much depth…
We are indeed to work for reform of the Church.
St. Catherine’s feast day is coming this month and we should pray to her for her guidance in how each one of us should go about in living more deeply our place in the Church, and what we can do to alleviate these scourges.
I read this in the mid 1980’s…and I can’t do justice to the chapter. There is so much depth…
We are indeed to work for reform of the Church.
St. Catherine’s feast day is coming this month and we should pray to her for her guidance in how each one of us should go about in living more deeply our place in the Church, and what we can do to alleviate these scourges.
S
Soutane
Guest
No Priests-No Sacraments-No Catholic Church.Pedestals indeed;I’ve never heard anything so insulting to priests in my life…Are YOU going to consecrate the Eucharist?The priest acts in personae Christi.They are men “set apart” by God,they are NOT just another member of the congregation.They are ORDAINED which in itself is a sacrament.The priest is the Shepard you are part of the flock.Remember that.
C
catharina
Guest
I suppose
Excuse me for mentioning it but the situation with Cardinal Law is part of history.
I don’t know if you were practicing Catholics back in the day, but Cardinal Law resigned his post, took on a pentential assignment and was later called to Rome by His Holiness Pope John Paul II to serve there. The Holy Father knew far more about Cardinal Law’s history and ‘disposition’ than Peggy Noonan, either of you, or I will ever know. To look at any re-hash now in support of Noonan’s divisiveness is quite unusual.
The matter was settled by the Vatican.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Where did you get the idea I want to consecrate the host or anything like a priest???
Read St. Catherine. What I am saying is that the Church is about Christ and our relationship to Him.
Latinists never like me.
Read St. Catherine. What I am saying is that the Church is about Christ and our relationship to Him.
Latinists never like me.
C
catharina
Guest
thank you!
N
Non_Serviam
Guest
IF anyone here has read any of Peggy Noonan’s books you’ll know two things:
She hasn’t said all women are better or that women should replace men, or that women should lead, she talked about a woman sitting beside a bishop giving him advice, oh, like y’all are so fond of picturing Mary. Giving Jesus advice by mediating for those who ask her help.
Do you want to apply your misogynistic comments about women’s contributions to Mary? Or would you like to reconsider them in this light?
Priests molested catholic kids and bishops covered it up and were unkind to the victims and their families in many cases. Accept it. Get mad at the right people. Those who were running the show then and are still running it in many cases. Get mad at them.
Not Peggy Noonan.
- She can always back up and quote or allegation she makes-look at her references in her books, or previous WSJ articles where she provides a source or sources to confirm items that appeared in the article. If you think she’s mis-spoken, email the WSJ, she’ll substantiate the comment or retract it.
- She’s given catholicism better press than it deserved in many cases (the saccharine, hagiographic John Paul the Great is exhibit A for this-none of the issues about JPII’s papacy that were addressed in other biographies were even hinted at in a negative way except a negativity on the part of people).
She hasn’t said all women are better or that women should replace men, or that women should lead, she talked about a woman sitting beside a bishop giving him advice, oh, like y’all are so fond of picturing Mary. Giving Jesus advice by mediating for those who ask her help.
Do you want to apply your misogynistic comments about women’s contributions to Mary? Or would you like to reconsider them in this light?
Priests molested catholic kids and bishops covered it up and were unkind to the victims and their families in many cases. Accept it. Get mad at the right people. Those who were running the show then and are still running it in many cases. Get mad at them.
Not Peggy Noonan.
C
catharina
Guest
So you’re a fan of Noonan.
So I’m not one.
Shouldn’t be a problem for you.
Hope it isn’t.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
Well said. what we need is to repent from our sins and return to God. we need to stop trying to take over the Church. this Church belongs to Jesus, we are invited to be apart off and obey and not dictate how the church should be.
C
catharina
Guest
Superb advice to all of us (including myself):
**Ephesians 4:
26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger,
27 and do not leave room for the devil. **
usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians4.htm
**Ephesians 4:
26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger,
27 and do not leave room for the devil. **
usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians4.htm
Code:
Cardinal Law's situation: 2005
Today: 2010
~~~~~~~~
Peggy Noonan can surely stir things up; it still sells papers.
S
Soutane
Guest
You added a gratuitous insult to priests by stating baldly that we place them on pedestals,I was merely correcting you by qualifying and/or quantifying the reverence that is their due.Reverand-get it?
N
nordskoven
Guest
Take some pot shots at the American bishops. In Dallas, they stated that Christ’s statement that those who scandalize the little ones would be better off swimming in the deepest ocean with a millstone is prophecy fulfilled in our time. I think Jesus would be sniped at if not kicked off this website. “You whitewashed tombs full of dead men’s bones…” Did Jesus gush about treating all priests with kid gloves or warn us about wolves in sheep’s clothing? The Golden Parachute retirement plan for sex perverts adopted in Dallas is not how wolves were treated in Christ’s era. God bless those thirteen bishops who voted against this travesty.
The pederast/pedophile priests have been well-protected in Democrat venues. Those are Democrat parishes going into bankruptcy paying, not reparations, but hush money to victims. Remove the gag order. The lay advisory committee included two pro-abortion Clinton-era Democrats and the psychiatrist who had oversight over the Johns-Hopkins sex clinic–founded by a pro-pedophile, Dr. John Money–and approved of their refusal to comply with Maryland law demanding they report active pederasts/pedophiles. Even Father Greeley, who says it is a mortal sin to vote Republican, has castigated the clerical degenerates in Chicago. Greeley fears for his life in hiding a detailed account of particulars in case of his untimely demise.
Bishops have spent millions on “therapy” at places like St. Luke’s, where one doctor said he has never met more obstinant patients than those priests in his care. High recidivism has never prevented these institutions from sucking in more millions. The cost of hush-money in America alone totals around three billion. Untold victims are crushed. No accounting of finances or perpetrators involved has been forthcoming and won’t be as long as the gag orders stand.
Save the final potshots for Benedict XVI who states it’s off to the slammer with offenders. Those who give a drink of water to a prophet will share in the prophet’s reward. And those who protect, not the scandalized little ones, but the perpetrators, will share in their reward. “The smoke of Satan has entered the Church…” and the trembling flame of evil is being sheltered and fanned by a coterie of wolves who refuse to even promise transparency.
Jesuits at Rockhurst, a Kansas City metro area boy’s high school, taught the 60’s generation that a woman cannot be raped because a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down. Kinsey’s 50’s-era faked research showing children liked to be sexually assaulted, interpeting cries and screams as a pleasure response, has been the basis for changing laws downgrading the rape of children. Women and children last is a trend that must be reversed. John Paul II’s disturbing dream on visiting New York entailed a poor old woman with her cat walking in snow-covered streets past churches where clerics barred entry to their remodeled interiors is all too real. This is the European model of clerics as nobility, not servants. John Paul II called for an end-run around uncooperative clerics and called to the laity to help. May we redouble our spiritual and corporal works of mercy and stop the pop interior decorator culture or risk judgment. Christ is the Way, Truth and Life. The Way is to turn felons over to authorities and take the muzzle off victims. The Truth is that wolves are not being exposed or kept at bay. The Life is to die rather than have one child enslaved by fear.
**Blessed Virgin Mary, pierced with a sword of sorrow that “the thoughts of all may be revealed,” expose all thoughts; cleansing them in the fire of love of your Son, Jesus Christ’s Sacred Heart. AMEN
**
The pederast/pedophile priests have been well-protected in Democrat venues. Those are Democrat parishes going into bankruptcy paying, not reparations, but hush money to victims. Remove the gag order. The lay advisory committee included two pro-abortion Clinton-era Democrats and the psychiatrist who had oversight over the Johns-Hopkins sex clinic–founded by a pro-pedophile, Dr. John Money–and approved of their refusal to comply with Maryland law demanding they report active pederasts/pedophiles. Even Father Greeley, who says it is a mortal sin to vote Republican, has castigated the clerical degenerates in Chicago. Greeley fears for his life in hiding a detailed account of particulars in case of his untimely demise.
Bishops have spent millions on “therapy” at places like St. Luke’s, where one doctor said he has never met more obstinant patients than those priests in his care. High recidivism has never prevented these institutions from sucking in more millions. The cost of hush-money in America alone totals around three billion. Untold victims are crushed. No accounting of finances or perpetrators involved has been forthcoming and won’t be as long as the gag orders stand.
Save the final potshots for Benedict XVI who states it’s off to the slammer with offenders. Those who give a drink of water to a prophet will share in the prophet’s reward. And those who protect, not the scandalized little ones, but the perpetrators, will share in their reward. “The smoke of Satan has entered the Church…” and the trembling flame of evil is being sheltered and fanned by a coterie of wolves who refuse to even promise transparency.
Jesuits at Rockhurst, a Kansas City metro area boy’s high school, taught the 60’s generation that a woman cannot be raped because a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down. Kinsey’s 50’s-era faked research showing children liked to be sexually assaulted, interpeting cries and screams as a pleasure response, has been the basis for changing laws downgrading the rape of children. Women and children last is a trend that must be reversed. John Paul II’s disturbing dream on visiting New York entailed a poor old woman with her cat walking in snow-covered streets past churches where clerics barred entry to their remodeled interiors is all too real. This is the European model of clerics as nobility, not servants. John Paul II called for an end-run around uncooperative clerics and called to the laity to help. May we redouble our spiritual and corporal works of mercy and stop the pop interior decorator culture or risk judgment. Christ is the Way, Truth and Life. The Way is to turn felons over to authorities and take the muzzle off victims. The Truth is that wolves are not being exposed or kept at bay. The Life is to die rather than have one child enslaved by fear.
**Blessed Virgin Mary, pierced with a sword of sorrow that “the thoughts of all may be revealed,” expose all thoughts; cleansing them in the fire of love of your Son, Jesus Christ’s Sacred Heart. AMEN
**
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Again, I think you are projecting something on me that isn’t there.
If I did not have respect and veneration for the clergy, than why in the world did I share parts of St. Catherine of Siena’s writings on the clergy???
Putting priests on a pedestal is different than venerating the sacrament of Holy Orders and the presence of Christ within them.
Take me off your radar screen. I have met Latin Catholics who don’t want to shake hands with people, are very quick to judge and condemn someone without listening and gaining insight into the context of what they are trying to say. Or they hate and judge women who go up to do readings at Mass. What the Church allows is in union with the Spirit of the church. And I must say that what my own children witnessed with them and their behaviors caused mine to have their Catholic faith damaged.
I hope you are not one of them. Good Day!
If I did not have respect and veneration for the clergy, than why in the world did I share parts of St. Catherine of Siena’s writings on the clergy???
Putting priests on a pedestal is different than venerating the sacrament of Holy Orders and the presence of Christ within them.
Take me off your radar screen. I have met Latin Catholics who don’t want to shake hands with people, are very quick to judge and condemn someone without listening and gaining insight into the context of what they are trying to say. Or they hate and judge women who go up to do readings at Mass. What the Church allows is in union with the Spirit of the church. And I must say that what my own children witnessed with them and their behaviors caused mine to have their Catholic faith damaged.
I hope you are not one of them. Good Day!
S
Soutane
Guest
Thank you for your gratuitous condemnation of me and a blanket stereotyping of all Latin Catholics.I don’t think you quite understand what the words Latin Catholic mean,but you’re quick to pigeonhole us…Don’t bother replying as I have placed you on “ignore”.
J
jamanne
Guest
I am also of the mind that had there been women allowed to function in any capacity at the Christian Brothers orphange I t would never have got as bad as it did.Most women will make a lot of noise if they feel a child id being abused and alert authorities .Their presence can also have an influence of keeping perverts away the fact a vulnerable bunch of children were left to the auspices of a men only facility must have sent out signals to every pervret in the country and there was nobody watching the gates
- Status