Penance for the non-believers and the lost souls on earth.

[Grateful4mercy]

Gut check time…when was the last time you offered penance for the lost souls on earth that their sins may be put upon your shoulders to bear? I admit I don’t do it as much as I could, but I try to when I can remember them (in addition to the ones in my own family )

I know this is sort of a catholic thing, but I wanted to introduce an idea to our non-catholic brethren that they may have never addressed before.

p.s. I really don’t want to know details because I would fear that it would invalidate your noble deed by shinning too much light upon it. I want the benefit of your sacrifice to stay right where it belongs

 

[LilyM]

Every Morning Offering, among other things, I offer all the day’s sufferings and works (penitential and otherwise) for the conversion of sinners, which includes most of those ‘lost souls’.

And if I am specifically offering up some particular suffering, that too is offered for the conversion of sinners among other things.

A simple word change to ‘conversion of souls’ will include everyone you mentioned!

 

[notself]

As a Buddhist I share all of the merit of my good actions with all sentient beings that they may be well and happy, safe and free from harm.

Does the Church have a teaching of sharing the merit (grace) of good actions with others?

 

[Hellisreal]

As a Buddhist I share all of the merit of my good actions with all sentient beings that they may be well and happy, safe and free from harm.

Does the Church have a teaching of sharing the merit (grace) of good actions with others?

Communion of Saints

Church Millitant

Church Suffering

Church Triumphant

says it all?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Gut check time…when was the last time you offered penance for the lost souls on earth that their sins may be put upon your shoulders to bear? I admit I don’t do it as much as I could, but I try to when I can remember them (in addition to the ones in my own family )

I know this is sort of a catholic thing, but I wanted to introduce an idea to our non-catholic brethren that they may have never addressed before.

p.s. I really don’t want to know details because I would fear that it would invalidate your noble deed by shinning too much light upon it. I want the benefit of your sacrifice to stay right where it belongs

Are you saying that for instance Betty is a non believer in Christ, so you ask for her burdan so she will be saved??

 

[Keikiolu]

As a Buddhist I share all of the merit of my good actions with all sentient beings that they may be well and happy, safe and free from harm.

Does the Church have a teaching of sharing the merit (grace) of good actions with others?

Heck yeah…!!

For those whom God is purifying (which would be in purgatory) we can pray and “do works from our faith” for them so as to lighten their “burden” there (whatever “burden” actually means in this instance).

For those who are alive on earth, we can offer the same things so they may be helped to find/reach their ultimate best goal (“knowing” God).

If people are actually IN heaven, which we can’t really know, other than in the cases of acknowedged Saints, it’s a bit silly to pray FOR them, but it can’t actually hurt!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Are you saying that for instance Betty is a non believer in Christ, so you ask for her burdan so she will be saved??

Sorry, everybody. I really didn’t mean to orphan this thread like I did.

To answer you, Kitty. Yes and no. Lets say she is somebody you know at work. You have tried and tried to get her to church, but she is defiant against God (she may or may not even really believe in God). You, as a disciple of our savior, can take the punishment for her sins upon yourself in hopes she will not be sent to hell. Now there are no guarantees. You are imploring God in his infinite mercy to allow you to carry her cross in much the same way that Simon carried Jesus’ cross on the way to Calvary. Since God is all goodness, maybe he will allow you to offer yourself for her sins…maybe not. God gets to decide his plans for her, all we can do is pray and hope.

It is a great act of charity. Jesus said ‘no greater love have a man than this, that he would lay down his life for a friend.’ So giving penance for a friend (or even a stranger) is a good and holy thing to do.

All good Christians should be heartbroken at the thought of people in hell. Not out of fear for ourselves, but out of love for each other. I don’t even want Saddam Hussein to be in hell. I prayed for his conversion all the way up to the time of his death.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

As a Buddhist I share all of the merit of my good actions with all sentient beings that they may be well and happy, safe and free from harm.

Does the Church have a teaching of sharing the merit (grace) of good actions with others?

You would be shocked at how much Eastern Spirituality there is in the Catholic Church. We understand how evil and good deeds don’t just affect ourselves. They are like waves in a pool, touching every inch of the water all the way to the shore. Every action, good or bad, touches us all.

I think that would make a fascinating thread, don’t you? Parallels between eastern and catholic spirituality?

 

[notself]

You would be shocked at how much Eastern Spirituality there is in the Catholic Church. We understand how evil and good deeds don’t just affect ourselves. They are like waves in a pool, touching every inch of the water all the way to the shore. Every action, good or bad, touches us all.

I think that would make a fascinating thread, don’t you? Parallels between eastern and catholic spirituality?

I think it is very reasonable that there is Eastern Spirituality in the Catholic Church. The Church was greatly influenced by the Greeks and the Greeks had contact with Buddhism from around 250 BC.

If you read any biography of a Forest Monk of the Theravada tradtion and then read the biography of St. Francis of Assisi you will see very strong parallels in monastic practice.

I think St. Francis would have made an excellent Buddhist.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

To answer you, Kitty. Yes and no. Lets say she is somebody you know at work. You have tried and tried to get her to church, but she is defiant against God (she may or may not even really believe in God). You, as a disciple of our savior, can take the punishment for her sins upon yourself in hopes she will not be sent to hell. Now there are no guarantees. You are imploring God in his infinite mercy to allow you to carry her cross in much the same way that Simon carried Jesus’ cross on the way to Calvary. Since God is all goodness, maybe he will allow you to offer yourself for her sins…maybe not. God gets to decide his plans for her, all we can do is pray and hope.

It is a great act of charity. Jesus said ‘no greater love have a man than this, that he would lay down his life for a friend.’ So giving penance for a friend (or even a stranger) is a good and holy thing to do.

All good Christians should be heartbroken at the thought of people in hell. Not out of fear for ourselves, but out of love for each other. I don’t even want Saddam Hussein to be in hell. I prayed for his conversion all the way up to the time of his death.

Hmm, well this is a new one for me. I understand the burden of lost souls. This penance for others seems odd to me. I understand I can talk to this Betty, I can attempt to plant seeds, I can be a example to her. I can also ask the Lord to convict her, change her mind, see a different view. But ultimetely I would place her in His hands.

I dont understand this penance for others in the fact I cannot get someone to change only the Holy Spirit can. I can want all I can with all my heart and soul to change someone or take their burdens but its between them and God.

Reminds me of a couple different lines in a U2 song

*If I could, through myself, set your spirit free. . .

If I could, yes I would. . .*

I can understand intercessory prayer and a burden for Betty. But I cant take her punishment for her sins, besides Christ did. I dont think me or anyone is worthy enough to do that.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Hmm, well this is a new one for me. I understand the burden of lost souls. This penance for others seems odd to me. I understand I can talk to this Betty, I can attempt to plant seeds, I can be a example to her. I can also ask the Lord to convict her, change her mind, see a different view. But ultimetely I would place her in His hands.

I dont understand this penance for others in the fact I cannot get someone to change only the Holy Spirit can. I can want all I can with all my heart and soul to change someone or take their burdens but its between them and God.

Reminds me of a couple different lines in a U2 song

*If I could, through myself, set your spirit free. . .

If I could, yes I would. . .*

I can understand intercessory prayer and a burden for Betty. But I cant take her punishment for her sins, besides Christ did. I dont think me or anyone is worthy enough to do that.

Sure you can. Why else would we bother to even pray for each other? Think of it like God is at a tollbooth and you are paying for the car behind you out of charity.

At the moment that person is being judged, God will see the love you have shown for them and amplify it infinitely. what do you think God would say? “I have seen my child’s love for you. But I am afraid I am sending you to hell anyway.”?

Or would the God of mercy say “My child has shown great love for you, and I will be merciful for his sake. Come and enter into the joy of your father’s house.”

Which God sounds like the God you love? Read the OT, it is full of righteous men petitioning God for the unrighteous. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but it NEVER hurts to try.

 

[b_justb]

Grateful4mercy:

when was the last time you (b_justb) offered penance for the lost souls on earth that their sins may be put upon your shoulders to bear?

Ummmmm that would be never. That’s Jesus’ job and He did it just fine. I’m not Him and He ain’t me. I’ve got my job in the Kingdom and He’s got His. We don’t do each others jobs. I certainly rely on Him to help me do mine, but in no way does He need my help for Him to do His.

And then Catholics wonder why Protestants think we have a thwarted view of Who the Savior is, and why we think we can be saved by works. This is a good example of exactly why those thoughts prevail.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Ummmmm that would be never. That’s Jesus’ job and He did it just fine. I’m not Him and He ain’t me. I’ve got my job in the Kingdom and He’s got His. We don’t do each others jobs. I certainly rely on Him to help me do mine, but in no way does He need my help for Him to do His.

And then Catholics wonder why Protestants think we have a thwarted view of Who the Savior is, and why we think we can be saved by works. This is a good example of exactly why those thoughts prevail.

Just Thats what I thought I was saying too.

Grateful I understand the enthusiam you are showing but I still think its intercessory prayer you are speaking of. We can bear burdens that way.

But we cant take the burden.

If I could I would, but I cant because Jesus did already.

 

[ProdigalSun]

The “Divine Mercy Chaplet”

Etrenal Father we offer you the body, soul, & divinity of your dearly beloved son, our Lord, Jesus Christ for the atonement of our sins and those of the whole world.

For the sake of his sowwerful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

O’Blood and water which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, have mercy on us!

We are asked to pray this from Jesus himself to help the whole world of sinners & lost souls.

Peace!

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Ummmmm that would be never. That’s Jesus’ job and He did it just fine. I’m not Him and He ain’t me. I’ve got my job in the Kingdom and He’s got His. We don’t do each others jobs. I certainly rely on Him to help me do mine, but in no way does He need my help for Him to do His.

And then Catholics wonder why Protestants think we have a thwarted view of Who the Savior is, and why we think we can be saved by works. This is a good example of exactly why those thoughts prevail.

This is perfectly in line with Catholic teaching. Why, otherwise, would cloistered nuns exist? Or hermitages? What’s a novena for? Never prayed a rosary for the souls of women suffering the pains of abortion? Perpetual adoration? These things are done to save and heal souls. We pray every Mass for people who are not saved.

O my Jesus, have mercy on us. Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Take all souls into heaven, especially, those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Just Thats what I thought I was saying too.

Grateful I understand the enthusiam you are showing but I still think its intercessory prayer you are speaking of. **We can bear burdens that way.

But we cant take the burden.**

If I could I would, but I cant because Jesus did already.

Please explain the difference you have noted. I dont see how I can bear something without taking it upon myself.

Jesus asked us to follow him…all the way to the cross. If he was willing to die to save us, shouldn’t we be willing to give something of ourselves in the hope it will bring somebody to Him?

 

[b_justb]

This is perfectly in line with Catholic teaching. Why, otherwise, would cloistered nuns exist? Or hermitages? What’s a novena for? Never prayed a rosary for the souls of women suffering the pains of abortion? Perpetual adoration? These things are done to save and heal souls. We pray every Mass for people who are not saved.

O my Jesus, have mercy on us. Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Take all souls into heaven, especially, those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.

I think you’ll need to point me to a Catholic source that demonstrates that people can take others peoples sins onto themselves. Praying for people is one thing, and I would think every Christians is very hoo-rah about that. Thinking we take someone else’s sins onto our own shoulders is quite another. This is from your original post:

when was the last time you offered penance for the lost souls on earth that their sins may be put upon your shoulders to bear?

The bolded part of your quote is what I am taking exception with. I am unsure if you maybe mis-worded your original question or what. But as it stands, I can’t say, ‘Yes,’ to it. Instead I have to say a very loud, ‘No.’

Don’t let someone telling you NO side track you. Look at what you are really asking and see if maybe it should be restated.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Originally Posted by Grateful4mercy
You, as a disciple of our savior, **can take the punishment for her sins upon yourself **in hopes she will not be sent to hell. Now there are no guarantees. You are imploring God in his infinite mercy to allow you to carry her cross in much the same way that Simon carried Jesus’ cross on the way to Calvary.

I think the question is what you said here in bold. We cannot ***take the punishment ***for anyone because Jesus did,

we CAN pray intercessorily asking for them.

Theres a difference.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

I think the question is what you said here in bold. We cannot ***take the punishment ***for anyone because Jesus did,

we CAN pray intercessorily asking for them.

Theres a difference.

Ok, you have rightly corrected my original question. It was written in haste and I didn’t make my intentions clear.

We can’t take another’s sins, but we can ask that the consequences of that sin be reduced or eliminated thru the penance we offer in their place.

Whether this make sense to you or not is really a matter of your views on the afterlife and the consequences of sins.

If I asked you to pray for my sister in law because she is an unrepentant sinner and in need of God’s mercy, would you say no?

If I asked you to say 10 prayers for her, wouldn’t you?
What about 100? 1000?
When does praying for somebody become a penance? Depends on the person doing the praying, I guess.

I HATE HATE HATE, pulling weeds on a hill next to my house. It’s a literal pain in the back! Before I start this miserable chore, I say a prayer to offer my suffering to Jesus for the good of the souls most in need. Does it work? Only God knows. Is it good for my soul? Most definitely!

Father Corapi’s grandmother says to offer it up, I’ll offer it up.

 

[b_justb]

Grateful4mercy:

When does praying for somebody become a penance?

This is an excellent question. I personally say, it never does. Unless your confessor has assigned it to be your, or part of a, penance.

If I am praying for another, let’s use my brother as an example. I am asking for God’s mercy for my brother and I have decided to perform some sort of prayer devotion for the mercy of God towards my brother. I have no idea if those prayers are answered as I have asked for them. However, I know completely that if I am completing a penance assigned by a confessor that my sins have been forgiven, thus is was penance. That’s the fundamental difference I see.

We cannot perform penance for anyone else besides ourselves.

Mormons have a ritual where they baptized people in absentia or even in absentia post mortem. Isn’t that ridiculous? Why is that ridiculous? Because grace is not imparted via a third party. It is imparted directly from God to the recipient.

Penance: is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

You see Penance is not by our own doing. We don’t say to God, I have sinned before Thee and to seek forgiveness I will . That’s not penance, that’s personal prayer, or devotion, but not penance.