Penance for the non-believers and the lost souls on earth.

[Grateful4mercy]

This is an excellent question. I personally say, it never does. Unless your confessor has assigned it to be your, or part of a, penance.

If I am praying for another, let’s use my brother as an example. I am asking for God’s mercy for my brother and I have decided to perform some sort of prayer devotion for the mercy of God towards my brother. I have no idea if those prayers are answered as I have asked for them. However, I know completely that if I am completing a penance assigned by a confessor that my sins have been forgiven, thus is was penance. That’s the fundamental difference I see.

We cannot perform penance for anyone else besides ourselves.

Mormons have a ritual where they baptized people in absentia or even in absentia post mortem. Isn’t that ridiculous? Why is that ridiculous? Because grace is not imparted via a third party. It is imparted directly from God to the recipient.

Penance: is a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same.

You see Penance is not by our own doing. We don’t say to God, I have sinned before Thee and to seek forgiveness I will . That’s not penance, that’s personal prayer, or devotion, but not penance.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

Following in the footsteps of Christ,(16) the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.(17) This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints,(18) whereby the life of each individual son of God in Christ and through Christ is joined by a wonderful link to the life of all his other Christian brothers in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ till, as it were, a single mystical person is formed.(19)

Please tell me if I am reading too much into this lengthy document. I honestly didn’t know it existed. I have always just sort of known this in my heart. Must be from my grandmother’s teachings. You don’t hear this much anymore.

 

[Rocky]

I think you’ll need to point me to a Catholic source that demonstrates that people can take others peoples sins onto themselves. Praying for people is one thing, and I would think every Christians is very hoo-rah about that. Thinking we take someone else’s sins onto our own shoulders is quite another. This is from your original post:

The bolded part of your quote is what I am taking exception with. I am unsure if you maybe mis-worded your original question or what. But as it stands, I can’t say, ‘Yes,’ to it. Instead I have to say a very loud, ‘No.’

Don’t let someone telling you NO side track you. Look at what you are really asking and see if maybe it should be restated.

Colossians 1:24 Even now I find my joy in the suffering I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Colossians 1:24 Even now I find my joy in the suffering I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of his body, the church.

Thanks, Rocky. Perfect!

 

[Hellisreal]

b_just b I think is getting misunderstood, he is saying that while the prayers may be with merit, and worthy, the sins of the person do not transfer to the one praying, IOW, you all are piling up on him, and not trying to hear him.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Ok, you have rightly corrected my original question. It was written in haste and I didn’t make my intentions clear.

We can’t take another’s sins, but we can ask that the consequences of that sin be reduced or eliminated thru the penance we offer in their place.

Whether this make sense to you or not is really a matter of your views on the afterlife and the consequences of sins.

ok I think weve established you cant take anothers sins, I will speak a bit for justb but Im sure neither of us are upset, or trying to gather up on you, just trying to understand what you are saying.

If I asked you to pray for my sister in law because she is an unrepentant sinner and in need of God’s mercy, would you say no?

If I asked you to say 10 prayers for her, wouldn’t you?
What about 100? 1000?
When does praying for somebody become a penance? Depends on the person doing the praying, I guess.

on this Im with justb, its not a penance to pray for someone, we are called to constantly pray for others, it is a privilage, right actually something like breathing. So I guess I just have trouble thinking its a pennance.

I HATE HATE HATE, pulling weeds on a hill next to my house. It’s a literal pain in the back! Before I start this miserable chore, I say a prayer to offer my suffering to Jesus for the good of the souls most in need. Does it work? Only God knows. Is it good for my soul? Most definitely!

Father Corapi’s grandmother says to offer it up, I’ll offer it up.

Now, this is simply something Ive not heard of. To try to relate if I have a horrible job to do, I do the work as if Jesus had asked me to do it. Work for the Lord as it says. Ive never heard that say I was about to suffer and ask for my suffering to replace someone elses suffering.

And this doesnt change the thought of ok I understand I cant take their sin, but I also cant take their suffering, NOW I can stand on the hill with you, perhaps even pull some weeds or sit and talk to you and encourage you as we are both in the hot sun. Thereby sharing the experience as I can with you.

But, If I went and swept the entire street, you would still be pulling the weeds

 

[LilyM]

I think the question is what you said here in bold. We cannot ***take the punishment ***for anyone because Jesus did,

we CAN pray intercessorily asking for them.

Theres a difference.

Even in the bearing of the Cross itself, Jesus was helped by Simon of Cyrene, remember.

So where does the idea come from that we can’t help Jesus bear His cross?

 

[Grateful4mercy]

b_just b I think is getting misunderstood, he is saying that while the prayers may be with merit, and worthy, the sins of the person do not transfer to the one praying, IOW, you all are piling up on him, and not trying to hear him.

Actually I am in a two on one debate. I don’t think I can really gang up on anybody [nor do I desire to]. Neither b_just b or Kitty quite see my side of the argument…yet

 

[b_justb]

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

This is an awesome Papal letter. Don’t you just love the way The Church keeps such great archives? I do. I’m sorry I’ve been delayed in responding, I don’t get on the forums at night (Eastern Time).

Before I start I want to point you to a story in Scripture - EXODUS 17:8-16

[sup]8[/sup] Then came Amalek and fought with Israel at Rephidim. [sup]9[/sup] And Moses said to Joshua, “Choose for us men, and go out, fight with Amalek; tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in my hand.” [sup]10[/sup] So Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought with Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. [sup]11[/sup] Whenever Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed; and whenever he lowered his hand, Amalek prevailed. [sup]12[/sup] But Moses’ hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. [sup]13[/sup] And Joshua mowed down Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. [sup]14[/sup] And the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.” [sup]15[/sup] And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD is my banner, [sup]16[/sup] saying, “A hand upon the banner of the LORD! The LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.”

Right now I am the Aaron to your Moses. I am holding up your arms. I pray and hope for your victory. I do not find fault at all with what you are doing in praying for anyone.

Pope Paul VI’s Indulgentiarum Doctrina that is linked above is the Doctrine for Indulgences (literally).

CCC 1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1)

“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” (Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3) The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead. (CIC, can. 994. 84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.)

As you can see the Catechism relies on the same Paul VI’s reference that you used when teaching what indulgences are. But an indulgence is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin.
When we talk about taking the sins of others and placing them on our own shoulder to bear that can be taken to mean we think we the person praying is the forgiver, the one in place of Christ that the sin is laid upon for forgiveness. I think we as Catholics have to be very careful in how we express our belief’s especially when we know there are non-Catholics within ear shot. This forum being a non-Catholic forum we should have that expectation.

So I think you are talking about your prayer activity in the light of Indulgence not Penance. When you use the term Penance you are shifting the focus from praying for others to repenting of sins and seeking forgiveness for those sins. Penance does not seek to forgive the temporal punishment for sin it is seeking the forgiveness of the sins themselves. Indulgences seek to lesson or forgive the temporal punishment or consequence of the sins. Do you see the difference?

To conclude I want to reiterate that I am with you in your endeavors of prayer, and ask you say one or two for me too for indeed: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (James 5:16). And I believe it is righteous indeed to seek to pray for others. Hope this helps clear up what I was saying.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

ok I think weve established you cant take anothers sins, I will speak a bit for justb but Im sure neither of us are upset, or trying to gather up on you, just trying to understand what you are saying.

I really don’t feel ganged up on at all, but thank you for your concern :grouphug:

I know I am in the company of friends and siblings in Christ. In return please don’t think that everything I write in response to you is directed at you personally. I am just trying to get some additional ideas out there and I’m too lazy to open another thread.

on this Im with justb, its not a penance to pray for someone, we are called to constantly pray for others, it is a privilage, right actually something like breathing. So I guess I just have trouble thinking its a pennance.

The CC has always used prayer as a form of penance. I used to have to say the rosary before I could leave the church after confession (sometimes more than one ).

Now, this is simply something Ive not heard of. To try to relate if I have a horrible job to do, I do the work as if Jesus had asked me to do it. Work for the Lord as it says. Ive never heard that say I was about to suffer and ask for my suffering to replace someone elses suffering.

And this doesnt change the thought of ok I understand I cant take their sin, but I also cant take their suffering, NOW I can stand on the hill with you, perhaps even pull some weeds or sit and talk to you and encourage you as we are both in the hot sun. Thereby sharing the experience as I can with you.

But, If I went and swept the entire street, you would still be pulling the weeds

Ahhh, but here is the beauty of the CC’s teaching on salvific suffering. Jesus had used the parable of the grapevine and the gardener to describe how the Father will prune us so we will bear more fruit. In the same way, we are given trials and pains in order for us to grow.

Jesus also suffered the passion and death for our sins, right? Aren’t we all called to imitate the Lord? When Jesus said “no greater love has a man then this…” was he bragging about his own actions, or was he instructing us by his example?

Ok, one more and I’ll stop.

The good Samaritan. He didn’t just leave the dieing stranger at the inn and tell him good luck, right? He PAID for him to be healed. Then he told the inn keeper that if he spends more than that he will pay the difference on his way back. If we see a stranger dieing of SIN, should we offer no less of ourselves? Shouldn’t we also, as the Samaritan did, offer to pay for them to be healed?

Ok, I’m done.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I really don’t feel ganged up on at all, but thank you for your concern :grouphug:
I know I am in the company of friends and siblings in Christ. In return please don’t think that everything I write in response to you is directed at you personally. I am just trying to get some additional ideas out there and I’m too lazy to open another thread.

well thanks, . And so Im clear, I simply havent heard of this so am merely trying to understand so I dont go away with half thoughts, Id perfer the facts. And Im always on the lookout to see what I can learn about the Lord.

The CC has always used prayer as a form of penance. I used to have to say the rosary before I could leave the church after confession (sometimes more than one ).

well, in that case I guess I understand. To be honest dont like it, maybe penance is a harsh term. Yea I understand confession differently, so perhaps thats why I not getting penance. If Ive done something wrong, and in prayer about it, and realising yet again Jesus is right, Im wrong, maybe my penance is eating the crow extra dry. Hadnt thought of calling it penance, if thats what you are getting at.? Do I have the idea, although may be different form.?

Ahhh, but here is the beauty of the CC’s teaching on salvific suffering. Jesus had used the parable of the grapevine and the gardener to describe how the Father will prune us so we will bear more fruit. In the same way, we are given trials and pains in order for us to grow.

Jesus also suffered the passion and death for our sins, right? Aren’t we all called to imitate the Lord? When Jesus said “no greater love has a man then this…” was he bragging about his own actions, or was he instructing us by his example?

Ok, one more and I’ll stop.

The good Samaritan. He didn’t just leave the dieing stranger at the inn and tell him good luck, right? He PAID for him to be healed. Then he told the inn keeper that if he spends more than that he will pay the difference on his way back. If we see a stranger dieing of SIN, should we offer no less of ourselves? Shouldn’t we also, as the Samaritan did, offer to pay for them to be healed?

Ok, I’m done.

salvific a word Im unfamilar with. Suffering in the way you have given examples I would think of and have experienced is doing the right thing no matter the personal cost. Is that the same thing?

(We could just be missing each other, keep in mind Im not “churchy” in any way, Ive not been attending anywhere for quite awhile and attended several when I did. So those club terms generally run by me.) Anyway is that what your saying??

As for the Samaritan, once again thats doing whats right no matter the cost, your yes is yes and your no is no. You are only as good as your promise and the promise to help the man is to be followed, even if pain is caused, but God loves a cheerful giver, so you have to force yourself to be that way. So I guess you could see that as penance, I just see it as what youre supposed to do in obedience to the Lord.

Maybe its the same thing, just a different outlook what do you (or anyone) thnk??

 

[Grateful4mercy]

well thanks, . And so Im clear, I simply havent heard of this so am merely trying to understand so I dont go away with half thoughts, Id perfer the facts. And Im always on the lookout to see what I can learn about the Lord.

well, in that case I guess I understand. To be honest dont like it, maybe penance is a harsh term. Yea I understand confession differently, so perhaps thats why I not getting penance. If Ive done something wrong, and in prayer about it, and realising yet again Jesus is right, Im wrong, maybe my penance is eating the crow extra dry. Hadnt thought of calling it penance, if thats what you are getting at.? Do I have the idea, although may be different form.?

Penance is sort of tough to put into perspective sometimes. There are times after confession (and confession is not complete until penance had been done) when the priest will tell me “Your penance is to spend 15 minutes in prayer in the church.”. I almost want to say “What? That’s it? That’s all? Did you HEAR how bad my sins were?” But I usually just mumble “ok, father” and do as I’m told

I guess the best way to describe penance is any action which is attached to the expiation of sin. Big penance will offer larger graces, small penance will offer small graces, but all penance is good for healing the soul from the injury caused by sin. God doesn’t NEED us to ‘pay’ him, WE need to ‘pay’ him for our own sake. It’s written in our hearts to offer sacrifice. Almost every tribe throughout the world had some sort of offering to their god. They might not have known our God, but they were acting on the instinct to please him.

salvific a word Im unfamilar with. Suffering in the way you have given examples I would think of and have experienced is doing the right thing no matter the personal cost. Is that the same thing?

(We could just be missing each other, keep in mind Im not “churchy” in any way, Ive not been attending anywhere for quite awhile and attended several when I did. So those club terms generally run by me.) Anyway is that what your saying??

I’m not even sure if I spelled it right, my spell checker didn’t offer any help either.

There are entire books written on the need for suffering in order to grow in holiness. C.S.Lewis is probably one of the best. He has at least two books dedicated to figuring out why suffering makes us more perfect. I couldn’t even begin to approach his brilliance in answering the question. But I think, if you meditate on it, you already know the answer. What would life be like without it? Numb? Without flavor? We could not experience joy if we didn’t know pain. Anyway, that another topic for another thread.

As for the Samaritan, once again thats doing whats right no matter the cost, your yes is yes and your no is no. You are only as good as your promise and the promise to help the man is to be followed, even if pain is caused, but God loves a cheerful giver, so you have to force yourself to be that way. So I guess you could see that as penance, I just see it as what youre supposed to do in obedience to the Lord.

Maybe its the same thing, just a different outlook what do you (or anyone) thnk??

I think we are saying the same thing, but using different words to describe it. <I have more to say here, but I have to run to a staff meeting. Back soon.>

 

[Kitty_Chan]

great, I gotta tear to town to drop off a apprentice, I will be back too. I will reread what you say plus the new, also what do you think about the eating crow? pennance? This is very interesting. thanks

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Back to the moral of the Samaritan story. That’s how I know Jesus was who he said he was. With a single parable he can unravel 1000 tales of human existence. Almost everybody can find something different in the story and all of them be right.

Beautiful, timeless, brilliant beyond measure. That’s our lord.

Eating crow is almost a necessity to penance. You must first repent, be humble, and admit you were wrong. But why do we need penance at all? Really the first part is the hardest. Admitting you were wrong is not a very human thing to do, it takes God’s grace in order for us to see it. So what is next after that? Well, we still feel sort of bad about it. We wish there was something we could do to make up for it…tah-dah! Penance.

If you get a chance, read that letter from Pope Paul VI. He nails the concept better than I ever could.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Penance is sort of tough to put into perspective sometimes. There are times after confession (and confession is not complete until penance had been done) when the priest will tell me “Your penance is to spend 15 minutes in prayer in the church.”. I almost want to say “What? That’s it? That’s all? Did you HEAR how bad my sins were?” But I usually just mumble “ok, father” and do as I’m told I guess the best way to describe penance is any action which is attached to the expiation of sin.

the concept if thats a ok term to use of what youre saying makes sense. Confession followed by “doing something about it” Sort of, well I could say *oh Im sorry *and go about my business, but did I really think about what Im sorry about and perhaps work towards not repeating it.

Big penance will offer larger graces, small penance will offer small graces, but all penance is good for healing the soul from the injury caused by sin. God doesn’t NEED us to ‘pay’ him, WE need to ‘pay’ him for our own sake. It’s written in our hearts to offer sacrifice. Almost every tribe throughout the world had some sort of offering to their god. They might not have known our God, but they were acting on the instinct to please him.

big or large??avoiding the details Im with you, depending on what it is, will depend on what is done. And yes, God doesnt need us to pay HIm, and Im not argueing here I know theres some other ideas on this, But really Jesus did already pay it, He just wants us to for our sakes. (or am I wandering and mixing thoughts here) I think it sorta answers a bone of contention that way, but I could be wrong.

I would like to add that is the way it is for Praise, when we praise God in all things its not for Him, but for us in the same way.

And yes, I agree there on around the world people offering to their god. He did put that God shaped hole in our hearts to find Him.

There are entire books written on the need for suffering in order to grow in holiness. C.S.Lewis is probably one of the best. He has at least two books dedicated to figuring out why suffering makes us more perfect. I couldn’t even begin to approach his brilliance in answering the question. But I think, if you meditate on it, you already know the answer. What would life be like without it? Numb? Without flavor? We could not experience joy if we didn’t know pain. Anyway, that another topic for another thread.

I love Lewis, (hes always my pick on that "which person would you like to meet? )anyway, he had a way of helping my poor mind sort out the confusion. Which books? Ive read some but not all.

I remember a Star Trek episode where a god wanted them to be his people, and Kirk said we need to suffer we cant simply follow. Theres truth in there, people dont like things easy, we seem to want to burn our hand touching the pot, before we learn. Perhaps that was the stiff necked part God talked about.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Beautiful, timeless, brilliant beyond measure. That’s our lord.

Definetely

Eating crow is almost a necessity to penance. You must first repent, be humble, and admit you were wrong. But why do we need penance at all? Really the first part is the hardest. Admitting you were wrong is not a very human thing to do, it takes God’s grace in order for us to see it. So what is next after that? Well, we still feel sort of bad about it. We wish there was something we could do to make up for it…tah-dah! Penance.

If you get a chance, read that letter from Pope Paul VI. He nails the concept better than I ever could.

Well, when you put it that way, theres no arguement. Im sorta repeating here but like before, one can say sorry, but did they mean it and was it just glossed over, penance makes you think.

As I said before I had not thought of the “process of confession” in this way. I think catholics and protestants are closer than is thought, especially if a “subject” is broken down like this.

Admitting your wrong you are correct is the hardest, we dont want to. I suppose thinking about that “process” there is a difference. And I think that everyone agrees that going to the person you wronged or whatever to confess is good. But if I have this right, first a catholic would go to the priest before that. ??

Whereas protestans would confess to God, and/or perhaps their pastor / minister, before going to the person. Trying not to compare dont want to start a all out debate here with everyone, just trying to understand how it all works.

One thing Im not sure if is true, but this thought that confessing to God directly allows one to “cheat” Im not sure I even understand the finer aspects of this in the protestant church.

But thats why I say, that after confession, and perhaps eating that dry old crow, I do want to do something about it.

Thats my understanding, dont know whos idea it is.

 

[Hellisreal]

I always confessed to Our Lord first!

Then, confession.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I always confessed to Our Lord first!

Then, confession.

Interesting I thought catholics only went to the priest because it “didnt count” if you didnt??

And Ive seen people say that sometimes the priest isnt always available, so if you do have to go then I guess you wait? isnt that a problem??

 

[Hellisreal]

Interesting I thought catholics only went to the priest because it “didnt count” if you didnt??

And Ive seen people say that sometimes the priest isnt always available, so if you do have to go then I guess you wait? isnt that a problem??

I said:

I always confessed to Our Lord first!

You said:

Interesting I thought catholics only went to the priest because it “didnt count” if you didnt??

HMMM?

Only went to the priest?

Why?

I confess to Our Lord ASAP. Then, the soonest I am able to- I get to confession ASAP.

Why would any Catholic tell you confessing to Our Lord **first **would not count?

Who told you this rubbish?

 

[LilyM]

I said:

I always confessed to Our Lord first!

You said:

Interesting I thought catholics only went to the priest because it “didnt count” if you didnt??

HMMM?

Only went to the priest?

Why?

I confess to Our Lord ASAP. Then, the soonest I am able to- I get to confession ASAP.

Why would any Catholic tell you confessing to Our Lord **first **would not count?

Who told you this rubbish?

This much is true - but for mortal sins sincere repentance (perfect contrition) to Our Lord necessarily includes the resolution to go to Confession as soon as possible. While such contrition procures forgiveness of sins, it doesn’t permit you to return to the sacraments except in highly extraordinary circumstances.

Why? Clearly you don’t take mortal sin seriously enough if you don’t have the resolve to seek the most definite and effective means of ridding yourself of it, which is sacramental confession.

We can’t trust ourselves to have perfect contrition (which means sorrow at offending God rather than mere fear of hell or what have you). But we CAN trust Christ’s promises that who the priest, as successor to this Apostolic power, forgives is forgiven. Bar certain circumstances, such as where you knowingly lie about or omit your sins in the confessional due to embarrassment or what have you.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hey Hellis

“It doesnt count” I get from different things people say, such as Lily just said:

includes the resolution to go to Confession as soon as possible.

Clearly you don’t take mortal sin seriously enough if you don’t have the resolve to seek the most definite and effective means of ridding yourself of it, which is sacramental confession.

We can’t trust ourselves to have perfect contrition (which means sorrow at offending God rather than mere fear of hell or what have you). But we CAN trust Christ’s promises that who the priest, as successor to this Apostolic power, forgives is forgiven.

Its clear that unless you go to the priest, your confession is meaningless. We cant trust ourselves to have sorrow at offending God, we need the priest. Thats fine if thats catholic traditon, however I approach it differentely, probably along with others.

Confession would happen on the spot or after (if one is struborn) realizing things perhaps with some conviction. Confession isnt born out of fear of hell, although for some it could be and perhaps to a extent it can motivate. But more out of a desire to please the Lord and do His will.

Kicking, letting down, betraying, not listening to your Best Friend, the only One that is truly on your side, does cause sorrow, makes you feel like the largest jerk, hurting the One you love.

Because of His promises, I can go to Him and state my regret and sadness of my broken promises. Its always quite clear what I should do, theres no “oh sorry, thats that.” and forget all about it.

Old crow is always served dry and believe me, you know if you dont follow through on what you are supposed to do after confession. I can just see Him sitting, waiting for me to follow through and cant stand the thought of letting Him down again. So thats when following through (pennance) happens.