Penitent Thief and Purgatory

[R_C]

I’m most likely going to become an Orthodox Christian because I don’t mind scripture and church tradition as long as the church does not add things to scripture, such as papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception.

Those things are found in Scripture. Perhaps, as you consider joining the Orthodox apostolic Church, you should also work on becoming more humble, more meek, and a bit more respectful of the Church in whose bosom is the majority of Christianity.

I mentioned above Purgatory in Scripture and the difference between apostolic belief of justification and protestant idea of fiduciary faith and imputed righteousness. Now I do not have the time to go over Papal infallibility and Immaculate Conception in Sacred Scripture, but I will quote a couple of examples just to exhort you to find out more from official Catholic writings.

Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church.

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). It is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.”

The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 (“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail”), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").

An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question.

Some ask how popes can be infallible if some of them lived scandalously. This objection of course, illustrates the common confusion between infallibility and impeccability. There is no guarantee that popes won’t sin or give bad example. However it is a fact that even the most scandalous popes have not altered the doctrine to their own benefit or taught anything heretical or erroneous.

More here.

Immaculate means conceived without the inherited stain of original sin, that is, conceived in sanctifying grace. John the Baptist was also born of a miraculous birth but in a most natural way and certainly not in immaculate conception: that is, he was conceived without sanctifying grace, which he would receive at a later point.

Origen (Homily, AD 244) calls her “worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate”, and Hippolytus writes in AD 235: “He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption.” Ephraim the Syrian says: “there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother” We refer to men who learned the faith from the apostles or their direct successors in an age where there was no Bible as we understand it.

In Psalm 45 the Holy Spirit so speaks about her:

The bride, a princess, looks glorious in her golden gown. In embroidered garments she is presented to the king. In embroidered garments she is led to the king; her virgin companions follow her-- those brought to be with her.

What a joyful and enthusiastic procession as they enter the king’s palace!

In place of your fathers shall be your sons; you will make them princes in all the earth.

I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.

And so does He speak of her in the Canticle of Canticles:

You are altogether beautiful, my love;
there is no stain in you.

You have captivated my heart, my sister, my bride;
you have captivated my heart with one glance of your eyes.

A garden locked is my sister, my bride,
a spring locked, a fountain sealed.

There are …] virgins without number.
My dove, my perfect one, is the only one,
the only one of her mother,
pure to her who bore her.
The young women saw her and called her blessed;

“Who is this who looks down like the dawn,
beautiful as the moon, bright as the sun,
majestic as the stars in procession?

If you still question whether the above refers to the Blessed Virgin, just compare that last statement with Revelation 12:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think the fundamental difference here between non-RC Christians and RC Christians is that Catholics believe that we need to be purified by literally perfecting our sins in a purgatory, while non-Catholics believe that we become pure by believing in Christ and therefore having our sins atoned for. I think that humanity is an imperfect creation of Christ and can only be made perfect and pure enough for heaven by the intervention of the perfect Christ. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Whoever believes in the Son will have eternal life” (John 3:36). As Christians, we should act as closely in the manner of Christ as possible, but because “all sin and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), our belief in Christ purifies us and makes purgatory unnecessary. It is a faith vs. faith and works idea, admittedly. If we are judged by our works, by the number of our mortal and venial sins, then we all fail. But because we traded in the law of Moses for the salvation of Christ, we are saved from our wrongdoing and by Jesus, not by ourselves. Therefore, purgatory is based on an anachronistic concept of works of the law. This will be met with scorn, but I’m sure that it didn’t hurt that it sold a few indulgences back in the day. Say, for a minute, that purgatory is an invention. Then, they will be indicted under “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll” (Rev. 22:18). They will have substituted Christ’s atonement of sin for an atonement by an invented purgatory. As to the inquiries about my intentions, I moved this post to the apologetics section on the suggestion of a few people in the non-Catholic religions section, so I assumed that it would not take as much scorn in a section devoted to arguing the Catholic religion. I’m most likely going to become an Orthodox Christian because I don’t mind scripture and church tradition as long as the church does not add things to scripture, such as papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception. In response to these points, I don’t blame Luther for his sola scriptura position, and I admittedly somewhat sympathize with it. But because the Orthodox Church does not misuse church tradition, I don’t have to hold completely to sola scriptura.

I am curious. Have you read any of the posts? You still have no clue what purgatory is if you are writing this. Please re read the posts so many people spent a lot if time to write you.

Purgatory is not a place to work off anything. It is a place to be cleansed of sin as we enter Gods presence.

You write “As Christians, we should act as closely in the manner of Christ as possible, but because “all sin and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), our belief in Christ purifies us and makes purgatory unnecessary.”

Why should we act Christlike if you believe this? Sounds like an invitation to sin boldly?

John 3:16 is quoted so frequently but you folks never quote John 3:20-21 in the same paragraph.

Everyone who DOES evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their DEEDS will be exposed. 21 But whoever LIVES BY the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have DONE has been DONE in the sight of God.

 

[steve_b]

If Jesus, upon hearing the belief of the penitent thief, told him “truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), what does this say of Purgatory? This man probably committed thousands of “mortal sins” and should have had to go to Purgatory, but only because of his belief in Christ was he able to enter heaven “today” and not after a stint in Purgatory. Clearly, humanity is inherently imperfect and can only be made perfect through belief in Christ and his bloodshed. If the penitent thief could enter heaven only by belief, why not us? What does it say about purgatory that it indicates that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to purify our souls?

Re: the thief

What we know about him, is from the few words he spoke from his own cross. We don’t know how he came to the knowledge he had of Jesus, only that he had this great clarity of knowledge and witness, and exercised them under horrific circumstances.

Lk 23:38There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

In those few words the thief spoke,

• he rebuked the other criminal’s insults of Jesus in front of everyone present, while experiencing death by crucifixion himself.
• He states Jesus is God to the other criminal, and in extension all who are present to the crucifixion as well as to all humanity who read this passage of scripture
• He admits he has done wrong, (i.e. he repents) and Jesus is innocent
• He Asks Jesus for mercy and to take him to His kingdom, and Jesus honors that. i.e. Jesus forgives the man of his sins.

that is a stunning witness under horrific pain and suffering.

Re: Purgatory

Where did Jesus go immediately after He died? His body went to the tomb, but His spirit went to preach to the souls in prison, those who were disobedient from the time of Noah. 1 Peter 3:19] That’s a looooooong time to be in prison

One might ask, why is Jesus preaching to the dead? The dead can’t hear, or think, or respond to anything. They’re DEAD!!!. Isn’t that the argument we hear from Protestants regarding Catholcs praying to the saints? They’re DEAD! Well, obviously they aren’t. The body is mortal it lives it dies. The soul otoh, is immortal. Once created by God, it never dies. It doesn’t sleep. It has memory intellect and will, fully functional… forever. That’s why Jesus preaches to the souls in prison after he died on the cross, and they could understand what He was preaching about. These are souls who are Not the damned. The damned are already in the hell of the damned. For the OT folks who die and are not the damned (1 Pet 3:19], it’s like [Malachi 3:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+3:2-4&version=RSVCE) which is an OT type and shadow pointing to its NT fulfillment

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. :coolinoff:

This is only for the saved, those who die without mortal sin(s) on their souls.

 

[rfournier103]

This is meant in NO WAY to be uncharitable…

Christian 2112 seems like he has absolutely no intention of addressing anyone’s arguments. He isn’t reading our posts (I’ll bet he never read or resopnded to my previous post: # 10).

Again… this was not meant to be uncharitable, but a little respect from the OP might be nice. We are taking the time to engage him/her.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I think the fundamental difference here between non-RC Christians and RC Christians is that Catholics believe that we need to be purified by literally perfecting our sins in a purgatory, while non-Catholics believe that we become pure by believing in Christ and therefore having our sins atoned for. I think that humanity is an imperfect creation of Christ and can only be made perfect and pure enough for heaven by the intervention of the perfect Christ. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Whoever believes in the Son will have eternal life” (John 3:36). As Christians, we should act as closely in the manner of Christ as possible, but because “all sin and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), our belief in Christ purifies us and makes purgatory unnecessary. It is a faith vs. faith and works idea, admittedly. If we are judged by our works, by the number of our mortal and venial sins, then we all fail. But because we traded in the law of Moses for the salvation of Christ, we are saved from our wrongdoing and by Jesus, not by ourselves. Therefore, purgatory is based on an anachronistic concept of works of the law. This will be met with scorn, but I’m sure that it didn’t hurt that it sold a few indulgences back in the day. Say, for a minute, that purgatory is an invention. Then, they will be indicted under “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll” (Rev. 22:18). They will have substituted Christ’s atonement of sin for an atonement by an invented purgatory. As to the inquiries about my intentions, I moved this post to the apologetics section on the suggestion of a few people in the non-Catholic religions section, so I assumed that it would not take as much scorn in a section devoted to arguing the Catholic religion. I’m most likely going to become an Orthodox Christian because I don’t mind scripture and church tradition as long as the church does not add things to scripture, such as papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception. In response to these points, I don’t blame Luther for his sola scriptura position, and I admittedly somewhat sympathize with it. But because the Orthodox Church does not misuse church tradition, I don’t have to hold completely to sola scriptura.

I dealt with these issues regarding purgatory. You wanted discussion–so, what do you think?

The EOC believes in the seven sacraments,Transubstantiation, Confession, the importance of faith and works for salvation, and, the effectiveness of prayers for the faithful departed to help with their purification. See Acts and Decrees of the Synod of Jerusalem, Decree XVIII; and The Longer Russian Catechism, #376-377. Also According to Timothy Ware, an Orthodox Bishop in The Orthodox Church there are differing opinions among Orthodox theologians about purgatory, but prayers for purification of the faithful who have died is accepted. (pp. 97, 255)

 

[christian2112]

Actually rfournier103, I have read every single post on this topic, and I appreciate the time spent on the replies, and I do honestly understand the Catholc perspective more fully. I understand what purgatory (supposedly) is: a place of cleansing because nothing clean can enter heaven. What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed of our own accord whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully. It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven and by belief not works as the verses say that I indicated. I also understand the reply to this point, namely that several other Bible verses mention that works are also paramount, which I do not dispute. However, since we are all imperfect and cleansed by Jesus only, these works are not what gets us into heaven. Instead it is the belief like what the penitent thief had. HOWEVER, this faith is not true without works that follow from it. It is just that the belief, which partly manifests itself in works, is what saves us. This is because we are imperfect. As to your other post, rfournier103, which I know you eagerly await a response to, I believe that Catholics probably think we are redeemed by Christ’s blood and belief in it but saved by additional works. I would of course treat the two almost as one because Christ’s redemption led to our salvation if we believe in it. But rfournier103, if I responded to every point in these posts, I wouldn’t be able to do the good works that will shorten my stay in purgatory (small joke).

 

[Jon_S_1]

What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed of our own accord whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully. It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The souls in Purgatory earn nothing, merit for themselves nothing. They do not work off their sins. It is completely by Gods grace that they are purified. This is why we pray for them and offer mass for them to aid them and pour God’s grace on them.

 

[christian2112]

Fr of Jazz, my response to you is as follows. I actually found your post very interesting. I think that your point of a newly believing Christian without the good works needing more purification than a more experienced one interesting, but than again your Jim is a great substitute for the penitent thief. I think that God, in his omniscience, can see into this man’s heart on whether his belief will manifest itself in works and continue. However, I think that this man, saved by Christ’s blood is pure enough according to the verses I indicated on belief, to be saved by the blood of Christ just as any believer is. To be perfectly honest, I think that all attempts here to redefine the meaning of Christ’s words to the thief have not succeeded. The switching of the meaning of today was a prime example. Similarly, Abraham’s Bosom is not purgatory but in my opinion a pre-paradise. So again it comes back to what purification means, and I don’t think we can achieve it for ourselves anywhere–only Jesus can do that.

 

[Brendan_64]

If Jesus, upon hearing the belief of the penitent thief, told him “truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), what does this say of Purgatory? This man probably committed thousands of “mortal sins” and should have had to go to Purgatory, but only because of his belief in Christ was he able to enter heaven “today” and not after a stint in Purgatory.

God does not operate by our rules and codes. He doesn’t follow a “if you do this, then that will happen” approach. We cannot begin to understand the mind of God, we certainly cannot impose our concepts of rigid actions, consequences and rules on God.

If Jesus said that the thief would be in paradise that day then, regardless of purgatory or how many sins the man had committed, the man would be in heaven that day. God is not bound to follow any rules.

Purgatory is not a place of punishment, it is a place of cleansing. Perhaps the penitent thief did not need cleansing? I would doubt that the amount of ‘time’ a person spends in purgatory is always directly proportionate to the amount of sins a person has committed. Perhaps Christ saw that the man’s heart was true and cleansed him of all his sins and cancelled the need for purgatory?

We should not suggest that God must conform to our understanding of what purgatory is, or our understanding of who should go there, and for how long.

 

[Jon_S_1]

. I also understand the reply to this point, namely that several other Bible verses mention that works are also paramount, which I do not dispute. However, since we are all imperfect and cleansed by Jesus only, these works are not what gets us into heaven. Instead it is the belief like what the penitent thief had. HOWEVER, this faith is not true without works that follow from it. It is just that the belief, which partly manifests itself in works, is what saves us. This is because we are imperfect. As to your other post, rfournier103, which I know you eagerly await a response to, I believe that Catholics probably think we are redeemed by Christ’s blood and belief in it but saved by additional works. I would of course treat the two almost as one because Christ’s redemption led to our salvation if we believe in it. But rfournier103, if I responded to every point in these posts, I wouldn’t be able to do the good works that will shorten my stay in purgatory (small joke).

We do good works because if we truly have faith in Christ we will do what he says. If we don’t have faith it is reflected in our lack of works. In doing good works which we do by Gods grace, we free ourselves from sinful attachment. We are sanctified and prepare for entering into his presence.

Since it is from God you can do it. Just because it seems difficult is no reason to reject it.

 

[pablope]

If Jesus, upon hearing the belief of the penitent thief, told him “truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), what does this say of Purgatory? This man probably committed thousands of “mortal sins” and should have had to go to Purgatory, but only because of his belief in Christ was he able to enter heaven “today” and not after a stint in Purgatory. Clearly, humanity is inherently imperfect and can only be made perfect through belief in Christ and his bloodshed. If the penitent thief could enter heaven only by belief, why not us? What does it say about purgatory that it indicates that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to purify our souls?

Here is what you miss…what did the good thief say or do before those words in v43 were uttered?

Luke 23:
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

He accepted his crucifixion as punishment or reparation for his past life…and after saying the words above only did Christ say he would be Him to paradise.

And if you read and review the account again, the good thief indeed had to repent and accept the crucifixion as his punishment.

And besides…paradise does not mean heaven.

Actually, the good thief did go to Abraham’s bosom. Paradise does not equal Heaven. Paradise, to the Jews at that time, meant the Bosom of Abraham, not Heaven.

And this is the place Christ went. Peter writes this in his epistle, where he says Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Modern interpretation, especially protestant ones, have lost the connection to what Paradise meant to the context of the time these words were spoken of.

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

Icons of the the early church depict the Good thief as being in the Bosom of Abraham.

 

[pablope]

Actually rfournier103, I have read every single post on this topic, and I appreciate the time spent on the replies, and I do honestly understand the Catholc perspective more fully. I understand what purgatory (supposedly) is: a place of cleansing because nothing clean can enter heaven.

Good.

What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed of our own accord whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully. It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven and by belief not works as the verses say that I indicated.

 

[pablope]

To be perfectly honest, I think that all attempts here to redefine the meaning of Christ’s words to the thief have not succeeded.

 

[LionHeart777]

…What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed of our own accord whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully.

I hope you don’t mind if I respond. Perhaps you don’t understand yet that the cleansing that happens in Purgatory happens because of Christ’s Sacrifice. It is part of the subjective application of that Sacrifice to the individual. But we do reject Luther’s concept of “snow covered dunghills” as against Scripture and against Tradition.

It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven and by belief not works as the verses say that I indicated. I also understand the reply to this point, namely that several other Bible verses mention that works are also paramount, which I do not dispute

.

Good, I can cite some if you wish? Also, where does the Bible mention that “we enter heaven and by belief not works”? It saves we are justified by faith (we also see that one can grow in justification and that it is not a one time even in the case of Abraham a la the Epistle of St. James), but you are drawing your own conclusion when you say what you say here. In fact. the Bible tells us the opposite. To quote the* Catholic Encyclopedia*:

“Although St. Paul insists on nothing more strongly than the absolute gratuitousness of Christian grace, still he acknowledges merits founded on grace and also the reward due to them on the part of God, which he variously calls ‘prize’ (Philippians 3:14; 1 Corinthians 9:24) 'reward; (Colossians 3:24; 1 Corinthians 3:8), ‘crown of justice’ (2 Timothy 4:7 sq.; cf. James 1:12). It is worthy of note that, in these and many others good works are not represented as mere adjuncts of justifying faith, but as real fruits of justification and part causes of our eternal happiness.”

Source: Pohle, Joseph. “Merit.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 10. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 3 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm (Emphasis mine)

However, since we are all imperfect and cleansed by Jesus only, these works are not what gets us into heaven.

We agree on the first half of the sentence, however, Scripture and Tradition are clear that works (not “works of the law” or works done not in a state of grace) play a role in our Salvation (cf. Mt. 25:31-46, Gal. 6:7-8, Romans 2:6-10), whether they be good works or “works of iniquity.”

Again, read the bold in the citation above.

Instead it is the belief like what the penitent thief had…

Do you realize that belief to a 1st century Jew doesn’t mean fiduciary faith, but encompassed more? Any orthodox concept of “faith alone” must encompass a faith that, to quote St. Paul, a “…faith that worketh by charity…” (Gal. 5:6, DRBrg), keeping in mind the bolded sentence above again.

Perhaps it would be helpful to describe something Jimmy Akin said on his appearance on “The Bible Answer Man Show” with Reformed apologist James White. (Mixed into last paragraph I write below–my paraphrase and I added the Scripture.)

Perhaps first some Catholic documentation:

From the Council of Trent’s CANON 1 from the “Decree on Justification”:

“‘If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.’” (Source: history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html (accessed 12/23/2011)

And from the Council of Orange:

[Speaking about after one is justified by faith (in baptism, “born again”—cf. John 3:5 and http://www.catholic.com/tracts/born-again-in-baptism”]every Early Church Father who wrote on that passage):]

"’The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously…’”

Source: Ott, Dr. Ludwig. “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” , Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. Rockford, IL: 1974. Pg. 264

So, after we are justified, God gives us the ability to do good works that he has promised to reward. Every time we do a good work God has to give us the grace before hand to do it, And one of the rewards of good works (done in a state of grace) is eternal life (cf. Romans 2:7.) Again, these works are rewarded because God has promised to do so, not because they are merited (in the strict sense.)

 

[rfournier103]

Actually rfournier103, I have read every single post on this topic, and I appreciate the time spent on the replies, and I do honestly understand the Catholc perspective more fully. I understand what purgatory (supposedly) is: a place of cleansing because nothing clean can enter heaven.

Okay.

What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed of our own accord whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully. It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven and by belief not works as the verses say that I indicated. I also understand the reply to this point, namely that several other Bible verses mention that works are also paramount, which I do not dispute.

So, does this mean that ALL Christian believers go to heaven? Jesus died on the cross for all of us. Does this mean that the second we die, all our sins are forgiven? Nobody goes to hell anymore? As long as we believe in Christ’s Sacrifice?

However, since we are all imperfect and cleansed by Jesus only, these works are not what gets us into heaven. Instead it is the belief like what the penitent thief had. HOWEVER, this faith is not true without works that follow from it. It is just that the belief, which partly manifests itself in works, is what saves us. This is because we are imperfect. As to your other post, rfournier103, which I know you eagerly await a response to, I believe that Catholics probably think we are redeemed by Christ’s blood and belief in it but saved by additional works. I would of course treat the two almost as one because Christ’s redemption led to our salvation if we believe in it.

Where does repentance fit in to all of this? Anywhere? Jesus forgave the good thief his sins (as I said, the Priest ~Jesus~ forgave the sins of the good thief) and the thief paid his own pennence on his cross.

Look at John 20:21-23: (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Jesus granted this authority to the Apostles and their successors to forgive sins. Even if you don’t believe in the concept of Apostolic Succession… Why would Jesus need to impart this authority to His Apostles AFTER His glorious Resurection? Why would believers need their sins forgiven by the Apostles and their successors after the Crucifixion?

Anyone…?

But rfournier103, if I responded to every point in these posts, I wouldn’t be able to do the good works that will shorten my stay in purgatory (small joke).

OMG!!! I fell out of my chair laughing at that!!! Seriously, dude… I’m DYING over here!!! Do you write your own material?

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Fr of Jazz, my response to you is as follows. I actually found your post very interesting. I think that your point of a newly believing Christian without the good works needing more purification than a more experienced one interesting, but than again your Jim is a great substitute for the penitent thief. I think that God, in his omniscience, can see into this man’s heart on whether his belief will manifest itself in works and continue. However, I think that this man, saved by Christ’s blood is pure enough according to the verses I indicated on belief, to be saved by the blood of Christ just as any believer is. To be perfectly honest, I think that all attempts here to redefine the meaning of Christ’s words to the thief have not succeeded. The switching of the meaning of today was a prime example. Similarly, Abraham’s Bosom is not purgatory but in my opinion a pre-paradise. So again it comes back to what purification means, and I don’t think we can achieve it for ourselves anywhere–only Jesus can do that.

The issue is not salvation. It is assumed “Jim” is going to heaven. Again can we really say the blood of Christ anesthetically and magically changes believers at death? Or is their conscious self involved in the struggle? I don’t see anywhere in the NT where God bypasses the conscious self and its freedom in bringing someone to salvation.

Furthermore on faith and works several points.

(1) Catholicism OEC maintain that the act of faith in Jesus Christ given by grace includes in its essence belief in the teaching of Jesus Christ. And His teaching includes moral teaching.

Consider this thought experiment. Is it possible for one to believe and trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior and at the same time deliberately intend NOT to abide by the moral teachings of Christ and not to repent of infractions of them in the past? In other words at the same time one is saying I believe Jesus is my Savior they are also saying I will never try to live as you want me to live, I will not do or avoid a single thing, Lord, you command; nor am I sorry for times I did not follow Your teaching. Would that be true faith?

Most evangelical Christians I know will say one must repent of their sins to be saved. How can one repent if they don’t intend to avoid sin? They don’t say “I’m sorry for my past sins and I intend to sin again.”

(2) In its biblical usage including the NT, “faith” that saves, which is given by grace, involves and requires in its essence:
(a) assent to the Christian message in the Person of Jesus Christ;
(b) the choice to change ones behavior to abide by all the teaching (including the moral teaching) of the Gospel; and
(c) faithfulness, that is, an enduring commitment to God in Christ for life.
When one or more of these fails, one has broken faith with God.

Sources (neither are Catholic):
Gerhard Kittle, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm R. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968), VI:174-228, “pisteuo”; I:216-25, “akouo, akoe, hypakoe”; VI:1-11, “peitho, apeitheo”.
David Noel Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, 6 vols. (NY: Doubleday, 1992), II:744-760. “Faith.”

(3) When Paul rejects “the Law” as the path to salvation, he is speaking about the Mosaic Law which he calls “obsolete” (Rm 7:6; cf. Heb 8:13) and his pursuit of it “loss.” (Phil 3:7). To those who wanted to Judaize early Christians he forcefully stressed that Judaism has been superseded by faith in Christ. He is not disputing that moral exertion is contained in the essence of faith.

1 Cor 6:8-10
Corinthians, who are already believers, are warned: no slanderers, robbers, etc. will enter the kingdom of God. * e.g. vv 8-9 believers inflict injustice on believers (“brothers”), but the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:16-21
The Galatians, who are already believers, are warned: if you do {x, y, z, etc.}, you will not enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus taught the same.
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(Mt 19:16-17; see //s in Mk 10:17-19; Lk 18:18-20)

“Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.”
(Jn 5:28-29)*

 

[christian2112]

I greatly appreciate your mirth.

 

[chero23]

I think I can see how ppl can say where’s purgatory in all of this. But we also have to see the wording.

A second thing that I think we should see. It’s that some denominations believe that when we die our body and souls sleep. If that’s the case what does this verse mean?

 

[LionHeart777]

I greatly appreciate your mirth.

Nicely done! Add one more word to my vocabulary

 

[snarflemike]

I think the fundamental difference here between non-RC Christians and RC Christians is that Catholics believe that we need to be purified by literally perfecting our sins in a purgatory, while non-Catholics believe that we become pure by believing in Christ and therefore having our sins atoned for.

By this thinking, we believers are all ready, now, for heaven. But you will agree that we are, now, sinners, and sinners cannot enter heaven. We have faith, but we are sinners. Thus having faith is not enough to enter heaven. We must be purified, perfected, sanctified. This is what God does for us in the process of Purgatory.

Therefore, purgatory is based on an anachronistic concept of works of the law.

Purgatory has nothing to do with the concept of works of the law, where did you get that? We don’t purify ourselves in Purgatory - in fact, we cannot do so. We allow God to purify us.