Penitent Thief and Purgatory

[snarflemike]

I understand what purgatory (supposedly) is: a place of cleansing because nothing clean can enter heaven. What I am saying is that, since we are imperfect, we cannot be cleansed **of our own accord **whether here or in purgatory but that the belief in Christ’s sacrifice and blood cleanses us fully.

You’re adding conditions to what you have been told. Nobody talked about being cleansed “of our own accord”.

It is by him, not by us, that we enter heaven and by belief not works as the verses say that I indicated.

Again, where did anybody say it is “by us” that we enter heaven? You won’t find any Catholic who knows the faith making that claim, ever. And the subject of works doesn’t even come into the discussion of Purgatory, so why do you bring that up? Purgatory has nothing to do with who enters heaven, that is another matter entirely. Purgatory is simply how sinners who are bound for heaven are made non-sinners, perfect and holy as the Father is perfect and holy. You’re arguing points that are not relevant to Purgatory.

 

[pablope]

I greatly appreciate your mirth.

Is this the response of a Christian who has accepted Christ and is doing good work?

Or is this the response of a Christian who needs a lot of cleansing or purging of one’s sinful nature?

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I greatly appreciate your mirth.

???
Is this a response to me? Or are you using linear mode to view the discussion?

 

[rfournier103]

I greatly appreciate your mirth.

???
Is this a response to me? Or are you using linear mode to view the discussion?

I think that was directed at me. I found one of his statements rather funny, and I think I may have expressed my mirth rather excessively. See post 35.

Any further response to post 35, Christian2112? Anyone else? I thought I made a good point…

 

[rfournier103]

I found these interesting…

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Biblical commentary of Purgatory courtesy of John Salza’s website: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html. Bolded is mine.

 

[LionHeart777]

I think that was directed at me. I found one of his statements rather funny, and I think I may have expressed my mirth rather excessively. See post 35…

That’s what I took it as and a funny/witty response back meaning no ill will.

“I think I may have expressed my mirth rather excessively…”

 

[christian2112]

Pablope, I kindly direct you to Matthew 7:1.

Rfournier103, yes I agree that your point was interesting about repentance. In your thinking, if works do not matter, then repentance wouldn’t exist. However, in a previous post (finding it in this storm would take a lifetime), I clearly delineated with a capitalized however that I did not believe that good works do not matter. I actually agree with another poster who said that belief must include belief in Christ’s teachings on good works. But these good works are part of a holistic approach to faith that Jesus will judge on Judgment Day. Therefore, salvation is decided by in my opinion a holistic approach from Jesus, and I think that we more or less agree on salvation. What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven. Acts 10:15: Jesus has the power to take our sins on when dying on the cross and raising and defeating them, making us pure. I just think that because we all sin and fall short, we cannot be purified fully in any sense because of the fall, despite the fact that many here think that purgatory is God’s allowance of purification and therefore grace. I see it as a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus. Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that. This is all besides the fact that I don’t think that another major part of theology and stage of the afterlife can be made upon such scant evidence. Whatever you say, I think that the references to purification are all extremely vague and can be taken literally instead of as another realm not mentioned specifically like heaven and hell were.

 

[LionHeart777]

Pablope, I kindly direct you to Matthew 7:1.

Rfournier103, yes I agree that your point was interesting about repentance. In your thinking, if works do not matter, then repentance wouldn’t exist. However, in a previous post (finding it in this storm would take a lifetime), I clearly delineated with a capitalized however that I did not believe that good works do not matter. I actually agree with another poster who said that belief must include belief in Christ’s teachings on good works. But these good works are part of a holistic approach to faith that Jesus will judge on Judgment Day. Therefore, salvation is decided by in my opinion a holistic approach from Jesus, and I think that we more or less agree on salvation. What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven. Acts 10:15: Jesus has the power to take our sins on when dying on the cross and raising and defeating them, making us pure. I just think that because we all sin and fall short, we cannot be purified fully in any sense because of the fall, despite the fact that many here think that purgatory is God’s allowance of purification and therefore grace. I see it as a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus. Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that. This is all besides the fact that I don’t think that another major part of theology and stage of the afterlife can be made upon such scant evidence. Whatever you say, I think that the references to purification are all extremely vague and can be taken literally instead of as another realm not mentioned specifically like heaven and hell were.

(Emphasis mine.)

Christian 2112,

I think I already tried to explain this alleged contradiction you see and perhaps I failed (or worse forgot . Also I kow you have a lot of posts directed at you).

Perhaps the following from the Catholic Answer’s tract “Purgatory”, will help:

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

(Emphasis mine.)

Also from the same tract:

The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because ‘[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness’ (Heb. 12:11).

Also, I hope you see that you misunderstand purgatory when you (from how I read you) write about it as:

“…a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus.”

We believe no such thing. Rather, it is God purifying us of the “wood”, “hay”, and “stubble” on our individual souls (1 Cor. 3:15), which includes sin (if I’m not mistaken) and even the attachment to sin. In this final purification (called purgatory by us Latins), the cleansing power of God is at work on our souls post-mortem.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Pablope, I kindly direct you to Matthew 7:1.

Rfournier103, yes I agree that your point was interesting about repentance. In your thinking, if works do not matter, then repentance wouldn’t exist. However, in a previous post (finding it in this storm would take a lifetime), I clearly delineated with a capitalized however that I did not believe that good works do not matter. I actually agree with another poster who said that belief must include belief in Christ’s teachings on good works. But these good works are part of a holistic approach to faith that Jesus will judge on Judgment Day. Therefore, salvation is decided by in my opinion a holistic approach from Jesus, and I think that we more or less agree on salvation.

I’m glad we agree on this understanding of faith. It’s the only thing that makes sense.

What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven. Acts 10:15: Jesus has the power to take our sins on when dying on the cross and raising and defeating them, making us pure. I just think that because we all sin and fall short, we cannot be purified fully in any sense because of the fall, despite the fact that many here think that purgatory is God’s allowance of purification and therefore grace. I see it as a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus. Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that. This is all besides the fact that I don’t think that another major part of theology and stage of the afterlife can be made upon such scant evidence. Whatever you say, I think that the references to purification are all extremely vague and can be taken literally instead of as another realm not mentioned specifically like heaven and hell were.

That very question is what I have been getting at in all my posts; but you won’t get anywhere if you refuse to take up the discussion.

So again.

Jesus’ death (and resurrection) is cleansing enough. The question is how is this worked out in the individual’s life as a conscious self?

(1) In everyday life on earth I think you would admit that a person must struggle and contend against the flaws in fallen human nature to grow in living the demands of the gospel and rooting out what is in conflict with it. Furthermore habits of sin (from acts before conversion or even falls after) aren’t just magically eraced by the blood of Christ without any struggle. They constitute a state of our soul. As we grow in Christ on earth the blood of Christ purifies us; and it is not painless and without struggle. Without the blood of Christ none of the growth we are talking about would be possible or even known to man.

(2) So back to my original question: Now, if Jim should instead die right after he comes to believe, how are these above-mentioned imperfections, which constitute a condition of Jim’s soul in relation to God and are at odds with the demands of the Gospel, removed or changed?
That is, since in entering God’s presence,
–one will love Him above all things,
–our soul will be reoriented away from inclinations to sin from past bad habits,
–we will obviously come to know perfectly our poverty of spirit;
so will this change in the soul be effortless, painless, and without struggle OR will it involve pain, agony, and struggle? I submit that, as a conscious self, in entering God’s presence I will experience the pain, agony, and struggle of that change.
Jim is entering God’s presence to be with Him, but like all love, divine love is purifying. And that ain’t easy. I don’t think we can say the blood of Christ anesthetically and magically changes believers at death. Yet this seems to be what you are saying if I understand you correctly.

(3) I don’t see how one can place limits on how God can purify and restore our nature. We’re going to be raised up after the pattern of His [Christ’s] glorified body by the Spirit within us who breaks the law of sin and death. Jesus tells us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. He tells us to love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength. And to love one another as I have loved you.

 

[pablope]

Pablope, I kindly direct you to Matthew 7:1.

Ranother realm not mentioned specifically like heaven and hell were.

Yeah…what about this passage?

Matthew 7
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

So far, I have only asked you questions…and you have failed to answer or respond…so can you point out any of my posts where I judged you accordingly?

 

[pablope]

Rfournier103, y

 

[Jon_S_1]

. I just think that because we all sin and fall short, we cannot be purified fully in any sense because of the fall, despite the fact that many here think that purgatory is God’s allowance of purification and therefore grace. I see it as a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus.

Christian 2112

This is your own imaginary idea of Purgatory. It is not Catholic teaching, it never has been. Perhaps you missed some of my quotes at the beginning. I will repost them in hopes that you will burn down this straw man. Why do you take issue with an imaginary position. All the Catholics on this page would take issue with a church that teaches what you describe, we just don’t know if any that teach what you describe.

"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”…

–Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

Pope Benedict XVI " Spe Salvi"

 

[christian2112]

In response to pablope, those verses indicate earthly purification by which we do good works and therefore have a more complete faith, and that complete faith is judged by Christ. This purification is not after death because, if we truly believe in Christ and manifest that belief with good works, then in the words of the gospels we have been given eternal life by the grace of Christ. This eternal life that we have through our faith and Christ’s death is purified in itself by said death. Purgatory as an extension of that is superfluous.

 

[Jon_S_1]

In response to pablope, those verses indicate earthly purification by which we do good works and therefore have a more complete faith, and that complete faith is judged by Christ. This purification is not after death because, if we truly believe in Christ and manifest that belief with good works, then in the words of the gospels we have been given eternal life by the grace of Christ. This eternal life that we have through our faith and Christ’s death is purified in itself by said death. Purgatory as an extension of that is superfluous.

How many good works must we do to prove our faith enough to be purified enough for heaven?

 

[snarflemike]

In response to pablope, those verses indicate earthly purification by which we do good works and therefore have a more complete faith, and that complete faith is judged by Christ. This purification is not after death because, if we truly believe in Christ and manifest that belief with good works, then in the words of the gospels we have been given eternal life by the grace of Christ. This eternal life that we have through our faith and Christ’s death is purified in itself by said death. Purgatory as an extension of that is superfluous.

You seem to keep avoiding the critical questions, so I’ll ask them again in a different form:

1. Are you a sinner now, at this very moment?
2. If you are struck by lightning today, and are saved, can you enter heaven based on your answer to (1)?
3. Assuming you have honestly answered YES and NO, how will you, as a saved Christian, enter heaven?
4. If you did NOT answer YES and NO, please explain.

 

[rfournier103]

Pablope, I kindly direct you to Matthew 7:1.

Ouch! :console:

rfournier103, yes I agree that your point was interesting about repentance. In your thinking, if works do not matter, then repentance wouldn’t exist. However, in a previous post (finding it in this storm would take a lifetime), I clearly delineated with a capitalized however that I did not believe that good works do not matter. I actually agree with another poster who said that** belief must include belief in Christ’s teachings on good works**.

Bolded is mine. I agree with you on this. Repentance IS a “work”. I wholeheartedly agree that we all need faith in Christ Jesus AND follow his teachings on good works or this ENTIRE argument is moot. So far, so good.

Unless we die sinless, there will definately be a need of repentance. I honestly think all Christians can agree to that. That is why we have the Sacrament of the Sick; (should we start a new thread on the Sacraments?) so that a believer may make an Act of Contrition (a statement of repentance, if you will) before he leaves the earth. I digress…

But these good works are part of a holistic approach to faith that Jesus will judge on Judgment Day. Therefore, salvation is decided by in my opinion a holistic approach from Jesus, and I think that we more or less agree on salvation. What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven.

Acts 10:15: Jesus has the power to take our sins on when dying on the cross and raising and defeating them, making us pure.

Umm… I am going to look at Acts 10:10-16 ~ He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners. In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky. A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.” But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.” **The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.” **This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into the sky. (bolded is v. 15)

What does this verse have to do with Salvation or Purgatory?

v. 17-24 details Peter’s encounter with 3 men who were looking for him immediately after the vision…

Acts 10:25-28 ~ When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and, falling at his feet, paid him homage. Peter, however, raised him up, saying, “Get up. I myself am also a human being.” While he conversed with him, he went in and found many people gathered together and said to them, "You know that it is unlawful for a Jewish man to associate with, or visit, a Gentile, but God has shown me that I should not call any person profane or unclean.

I don’t know what this has to to with Purgatory or Salvation, although this IS a very nice life lesson.

 

[rfournier103]

**I **just think that because we all sin and fall short, we cannot be purified fully in any sense because of the fall, despite the fact that many here think that Purgatory is God’s allowance of purification and therefore grace. I see it as a way of purifying ourselves from sin by ourselves that neglects the cleansing power of Jesus. Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that. This is all besides the fact that I don’t think that another major part of theology and stage of the afterlife can be made upon such scant evidence. Whatever you say, I think that the references to purification are all extremely vague and can be taken literally instead of as another realm not mentioned specifically like heaven and hell were.

Underlined and bolded added. YOU think quite a bit about this. Are these the teachings of your church or is this your own personal interpetation? YOU see Purgatory as a way of purifying ourselves, but Purgatory is of God, and NO ONE can purify himself. Only God can do that. This in NO WAY negects the Saving Power of Christ. Without Christ, we all go to Hell. Period.

Scant evidence? The Biblical evidence can either be ignored, glossed over, or analyzed critically. The Church has analyzed it over two millenia, and this is the teaching we have.

I have THIS from Catholic Answers… They’ve been at this longer than I have…

Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, “unclean.” Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that “Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man.”

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. **Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. **

The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because “[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness” (Heb. 12:11).
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. **Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” **

Bold and underline added.

 

[pablope]

In response to pablope, those verses indicate earthly purification by which we do good works and therefore have a more complete faith, and that complete faith is judged by Christ. This purification is not after death because, if we truly believe in Christ and manifest that belief with good works, then in the words of the gospels we have been given eternal life by the grace of Christ. This eternal life that we have through our faith and Christ’s death is purified in itself by said death.

.

Thanks,Christian2112.

I think you did not understand what I was trying to ask. Let me repost:

You said this:

[SIGN]What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven.
Quote:
Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that.[/SIGN]

You said Jesus makes us clean. So my question was mainly on how Jesus makes us clean?

That is why I provided the following passages:

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

2 Tim 2:21
All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

James 4:8
Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

From Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So to restate my quesition…How can you reconcile your statement of Jesus makes us clean with the passages above?

And how can you reconcile your statement with Rev 7, v14…where it states the martyrs washed themselves and made white…not Jesus doing the washing?

Follow up question:

On your statement… Purgatory as an extension of that is superfluous

Why do you think purgatory is superfluous? What is your basis?

 

[christian2112]

These verses do not indicate a realm after death, and there is no basis to say that they do. They are referring to the earthly purification that allows our good works to complete our faith in Jesus. To enter heaven, we are clean enough by Jesus and on earth purification is doing good works. To say that a purgatory exists from these verses is an extreme extrapolation.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

These verses do not indicate a realm after death, and there is no basis to say that they do. They are referring to the earthly purification that allows our good works to complete our faith in Jesus. To enter heaven, we are clean enough by Jesus and on earth purification is doing good works. To say that a purgatory exists from these verses is an extreme extrapolation.

christian2112,
Jesus’ death (and resurrection) is cleansing enough. The question is how is this worked out in the individual’s life as a conscious self?

Do you think the blood of Christ anesthetically and magically changes a believer at or after death as they enter God’s presence? So we never have to face and by God’s grace be purified of (in a process not a realm) our inner falsehoods, disguised idols, sinful tendencies, past bad habits, appetites that love certain things more than God, and hiding from our poverty of spirit. They just all magically and without any choice of our own go away even though we never overcame them on earth as we knew we should?