Penitent Thief and Purgatory

[rfournier103]

These verses do not indicate a realm after death, and there is no basis to say that they do. They are referring to the earthly purification that allows our good works to complete our faith in Jesus. To enter heaven, we are clean enough by Jesus and on earth purification is doing good works. To say that a purgatory exists from these verses is an extreme extrapolation.

Matthew 12:32 ~ And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Douay-Rheims Bible)

In this verse, Jesus is speaking of a forgivenes that will be denied in the world to come. What does this tell the critical thinker? It tells us that there is a posibility of forgiveness in the world to come. What world to come, you ask? Great question. It cannot be Heaven; because if you’re in Heaven, no forgiveness is needed. It cannot be Hell; because in Hell, no forgiveness is possible. What world to come is Jesus Christ speaking of? Anyone???

I apologize for not citing this verse sooner. It may have made things much simpler. This one verse is very hard to explain away, or say that it’s a flimsy prooftext. I think those handful of words speak volumes.

Even if you reject the Doctrine/concept of Purgatory, this verse should make you think a little…

 

[LionHeart777]

Matthew 12:32 ~ And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. (Douay-Rheims Bible)

In this verse, Jesus is speaking of a forgivenes that will be denied in the world to come. What does this tell the critical thinker? It tells us that there is a posibility of forgiveness in the world to come. What world to come, you ask? Great question. It cannot be Heaven; because if you’re in Heaven, no forgiveness is needed. It cannot be Hell; because in Hell, no forgiveness is possible. What world to come is Jesus Christ speaking of? Anyone???

I apologize for not citing this verse sooner. It may have made things much simpler. This one verse is very hard to explain away, or say that it’s a flimsy prooftext. I think those handful of words speak volumes.

Even if you reject the Doctrine/concept of Purgatory, this verse should make you think a little…

To “piggy-back” on rfournier103’s post here:

So you can see that this is not a novel interpretation of Scripture, I offer the following from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article, “Purgatory”:

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): ‘And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.’ According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life ‘some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.’ St. Augustine also argues ‘that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come’ (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 6 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm. (Changing the letters blue and bolding mine.)

 

[rfournier103]

Piggyback all you like, LionHeart777.

I think Matthew 12:32 should put the argument to bed; considering that it came from Jesus Himself. Thank you for your citation from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[christian2112]

Not forgiven in the next world… If you are not forgiven in the next world, I think it is referring to a realm worse than purgatory. Through purgatory you theoretically gain forgiveness, if you are not forgiven you go to hell.

 

[LionHeart777]

Not forgiven in the next world… If you are not forgiven in the next world, I think it is referring to a realm worse than purgatory. Through purgatory you theoretically gain forgiveness, if you are not forgiven you go to hell.

If someone is not forgiven, neither in this world nor in the world to come, than they are not forgiven-- they will be in Hell. What you are missing is that this verse implies “…that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and, consequently, that there is a purgatory or a middle place.” (Source: drbo.org/chapter/47012.htm) (emphasis mine)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church refers to Purgatory as a “state.” (Paragraph 1472) (scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1472.htm)

To give an explanation of the term “place” being used in my first citation, the following explanation will help:

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. **Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular ‘place’ in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines. **

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory (emphasis mine)

 

[snarflemike]

Through purgatory you theoretically gain forgiveness,

Where do you find this in Catholic teaching? Not one person here has said this, and it is not Catholic teaching.

And please answer my extremely simple questions in post 55
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10945201&postcount=55

 

[rfournier103]

Not forgiven in the next world… If you are not forgiven in the next world, I think it is referring to a realm worse than purgatory. Through purgatory you theoretically gain forgiveness, if you are not forgiven you go to hell.

If I’m not mistaken, you asserted that when we die, we’re in no further need of purification, correct?

Why would Jesus even need to mention forgiveness in the next world if ALL forgiveness would be taken care of through His Crucifixion? He MUST know what is required for the forgiveness of sins/purification, correct?

This is about the APPLICATION of the cleansing of sins. Jesus’s Death opened the gates of Heaven. Purgatory is Heaven’s “front porch”.

Make sure you wipe your feet… can’t have anything unclean, you know…

The following link is a tract on Purgatory, Christian2112. It looks like it’s been written by Dr. Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian Minister (and formerly a staunch anti-Catholic). It seems pretty good to me, and has some very good Biblical references in it.

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html

If you don’t feel like reading, try this…

youtube.com/watch?v=vDPbmGG6wiI
or
youtube.com/watch?v=jbO9mvYWgUQ

If you plan on staying in tonight, both of these might be worth a listen. Or tomorrow. Or whenever…

 

[zz912]

I’m curious if the OP could explain what the places other than Heaven, earth, or bell are? Specifically the places mentioned in scripture, Abraham’s Bosom, the prison Jesus descended into, Sheol, and Hades. None of these places is Heaven, earth, or hell, so what are they?

 

[pablope]

These verses do not indicate a realm after death, and there is no basis to say that they do. They are referring to the earthly purification that allows our good works to complete our faith in Jesus. To enter heaven, we are clean enough by Jesus and on earth purification is doing good works. To say that a purgatory exists from these verses is an extreme extrapolation.

Hi, Christian2112…is this a response to my repost?

I am not asking about where purification takes place, but related to your claim and statement…How does the blood of Christ purify us?

But you have seeemed to have not answered the question I asked.

Again, your statement:

*What we disagree on is purification. I don’t believe that humans can be purified of their sinful nature in a literal sense. I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven.
Quote:
Why can’t Jesus’ death be cleansing enough? I want a response to that.
*

Question:

How does Jesus purify us?

How do you explain the following passages with your belief in purification:

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God.

2 Tim 2:21
All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

James 4:8
Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

m Rev 7…14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So to restate my quesition…How can you reconcile your statement of Jesus makes us clean with the passages above?

And how can you reconcile your statement with Rev 7, v14…where it states the martyrs washed themselves and made white…not Jesus doing the washing?

I still have seen your explanation of your statement (I think that we are made clean by Jesus and not in need of further purification than his blood to enter heaven.)and how does your statement reconcile with the above passages?

 

[pablope]

These verses do not indicate a realm after death, and there is no basis to say that they do.

What is your basis to say there are not?

They are referring to the earthly purification that allows our good works to complete our faith in Jesus.

 

[pablope]

Not forgiven in the next world… If you are not forgiven in the next world, I think it is referring to a realm worse than purgatory. Through purgatory you theoretically gain forgiveness, if you are not forgiven you go to hell.

Despite all the links and explanations you have been provided…seems you still misunderstand or still carry your ingrained belief about purgatory…

There is no forgiveness in purgatory…is for purging of our sinful nature.

To enter purgatory, one must have been forgiven or asked for forgiveness already.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

Those people who in God’s grace and mercy are allowed to enter into purgatory die in a state of grace, not just with supernatural faith and hope but with supernatural charity that was alive in their hearts and lives. That is the prerequisite for entering purgatory. You cannot die in the state of mortal sin; you cannot die estranged from God, in a way hostile to God, having committed yourself to valuing things of the world more than the creator of the world. You cannot do those things and enter purgatory, much less heaven. Purgatory is not a second chance. It’s only for those whom God has from all eternity destined for heaven, and it’s only for those who die in a state of grace.

Furthermore, we’ve got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ’s unfinished work. I’ve already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There’s nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It’s finished, but it needs to be applied.

Earthly goods are good, but they are only hors d’oeuvres. They are only meant to whet our appetite for the heavenly banquet. If we pig out on the hors d’oeuvres, what’s going to happen? We’re going to lose any desire for heaven and the banquet of the lamb. So the Holy Spirit in love sends fire and ordeals which come upon us to prove us. To prove you as though something strange will happen to you, but rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings “…that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.”

He brings one fiery ordeal after another. If you are suffering a great deal. If you are going through a kind of purgatory on earth, you rejoice. Those who are fat and lazy and have it easy, they should beware. As Mother Teresa continues to say, “These are God’s tender caresses, this suffering.” The more suffering that you endure in faith and hope and charity, the more God’s love is being revealed to you. No wonder the gospel will never sell in the world. There is no way to teach this so that Madison Avenue PR men and women can just go out and make this popular without perverting it and watering it down.

This is why purgatory is so hard for us to understand. We don’t want to carry the cross. We want to make an optional clause in our contract with Christ. “If you want to be my disciple, you’ve got to carry the cross. You’ve got to die to self.”