Pentacostal friend says Catholics are not saved

[rcwitness]

Ugh, hopefully banned. She is arrogant beyond belief and full of nothing but strawman arguments. Never met someone with so much scorn for Christians who congregate at churches not called Catholic.

No, not banned. Sorry she rubbed you wrong, though.

 

[Tomdstone]

That there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church isn’t a ‘narrow’ view; this is indeed the doctrine that the Church teaches.

I think you can be saved if you are not a registered Catholic. For example, wasn’t the good thief at the cross saved and he was not a baptized, officially registered Roman Catholic? St. Joseph is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore he is saved, yet, I don;t see where he was baptized and registered as a Roman Catholic?

 

[rcwitness]

I think you can be saved if you are not a registered Catholic. For example, wasn’t the good thief at the cross saved and he was not a baptized, officially registered Roman Catholic? St. Joseph is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore he is saved, yet, I don;t see where he was baptized and registered as a Roman Catholic?

You are assuming that Catholicism rejects the Law of Christ because she is lawful…

We don’t know about any of the Apostle’s Baptism either. It is not absolutely necessary to be “registered” in the Church to be Catholic. Jesus gave us the commands to be Baptized, Confirmed, receive His Body and Blood, and when we sin to be Reconciled with Him and His Body. But He is not bound to these. He judges who was willing, yet through no fault of their own were deprived of these.

It is willful rejection of these with the knowledge that they are Apostolic commands which has grave consequence.

 

[Micosil]

I think you can be saved if you are not a registered Catholic. For example, wasn’t the good thief at the cross saved and he was not a baptized, officially registered Roman Catholic? St. Joseph is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore he is saved, yet, I don;t see where he was baptized and registered as a Roman Catholic?

Erm, did you see the rest of my post which has the quote from the Catechism? I think you’re assuming I agree with Fr. Feeney’s interpretation. I do not.

 

[Belshazzar]

I think you can be saved if you are not a registered Catholic. For example, wasn’t the good thief at the cross saved and he was not a baptized, officially registered Roman Catholic? St. Joseph is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore he is saved, yet, I don;t see where he was baptized and registered as a Roman Catholic?

The Good Thief and Good St. Joseph both died in the presence of Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. This is why St. Joseph is called the patron of a happy death, and why we are assured that they are both in heaven.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Good Thief and Good St. Joseph both died in the presence of Our Lord and His Blessed Mother. This is why St. Joseph is called the patron of a happy death, and why we are assured that they are both in heaven.

But is there any evidence that they were baptized or that they were registered Catholics? I think you can be saved without being baptized by water in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I think that there is salvation for many non-Catholics who were outside of the Catholic Church during their lifetime.

 

[rcwitness]

But is there any evidence that they were baptized or that they were registered Catholics? I think you can be saved without being baptized by water in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I think that there is salvation for many non-Catholics who were outside of the Catholic Church during their lifetime.

Baptism of desire

Baptism of desire*(Latin:Baptismus flaminis) is a teaching of theRoman Catholic Churchexplaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through theChristianritual because of death, nevertheless receive the fruits of Baptism at the moment of death if their grace of conversion included “divine and Catholic faith”, an internal act of perfect charity, andperfect contritionby which their soul was cleansed of all sin. Hence, theCatechism of the Catholic Churchobserves, “Forcatechumens*[those instructed in the Catholic faith who are preparing to be baptized into the Catholic Church] who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).

Official teaching

The Catholic Church teaches that "baptism is necessary forsalvation." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, ss. 1257).[1]It moreover teaches that baptism confers the forgiveness ofsinsby virtue of the enactment of thesacrament*itself: “(b)y Baptism all sins are forgiven,original sinand all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.” (ss. 1263). For Catholics, baptism is a unique, unrepeatable act; no one who has been baptized validly can receive the full pardon conferred by the sacrament a second time. (ss. 1272) Given these doctrines, it is a matter of serious concern for the Catholic Church if a believing Christian does not receive a valid baptism.

The doctrine of baptism of desire seeks to address some of the implications of these teachings. It holds that those who, as adults, come to faith in Christ and become catechumens but who die before receiving baptism nevertheless are admitted to Justification even though the Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.

The Catholic 1582 Rheims New Testament, the first published tome of the*Douay-Rheims Bible, specifically notes in its annotations to John 3:5 both the necessity of Baptism and the availability of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. The Catholic Church had been expelled from England at the time of the production of the Bible and many annotations were designed to assist lay Catholics to keep to their faith in the absence of clergy.

 

[PJM]

The bible, of course! If it isn’t in the bible, then it is off track!

YEA, But which one:shrug:

 

[PJM]

yes I need to read this book. I have heard many good things about it.

It is by FAR the best coverage I have read on the topic

God Bless,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

FYI Catholics are Bible Christians.

NOT ONLY are WE Catholics, “Bible Christians”

We Catholics birthed the Bible

It was Catholics who choose the 47 books for the OT

It was CATHOLICS who AUTHORED the entire NT

& And it was CATHOLICS who set the Canon on the bble at 73 INSPIRED Books:thumbsup: AMEN!

 

[Adonia]

The new birth or regeneration occurs as part of the order of salvation accompanying election, faith, repentance, justification, and adoption. In the words of a Pentecostal theologian, it is:

Gee, that’s what we believe too!

 

[pnewton]

I can think of three ways a Pentacostal might thing Catholics are not saved, though I wish do make the distinction that I am referring to the belief that Catholics cannot be saved through the Catholic faith. I know of no one that says all Catholics are saved.

1. They are inconsistent with their beliefs of salvation. They may profess what is needed to be saved, but include without stating many other criteria.
2. They are very narrow in their definition of either faith, profession of faith or repentance.
3. They do not really know what Catholics do.

The way to handle the first such person is to narrow down, even list, all the extra requirements they have tacked on to salvation. The second person may be so narrow as to believe a certain formula must be used, maybe at a certain place, or even only a certain person, may be saved. Perhaps one could draw from Scripture to show the variety of salvation illustrations, or as where their “sinner’s prayer” is taught by Jesus or one of his disciples.

The last person may be helped simply by taking the elements they give for salvation, and showing where these do exist. Admission of sin? Got it. Desire for repentance? got it. Asking for forgiveness for our sin? got it. Personal profession of faith? Got it. We do not have all of these boiled into a single one minute prayer, but that is not actually found in Scripture either.

 

[rcwitness]

Here is an article that gives a little of the history behind this term.

It does sound foreign to Catholics because it is a modern innovation, but it does not have to be rejected for that reason.

Thanks. But this article phased it as, “personal savior”, which for most purposes is relative. But I was using “personal relationship with Jesus”.

I think they both spring from a similar concept of “personal conviction and committment”, though “personal savior” probably is most often combined with a “personal biblical interpretation” theology, though not necessarily.

Anyways, I have heard the phrase “personal relationship” with Jesus in and out of the Catholic Christianity. It seems appropriate and a good phrase, so long as it doesn’t contradict the concept of “communion of the saints” and “members of one body”.

Also, we can indeed have a “bad” personal relationship with Jesus. I think Judah was the prime example of this.

Thanks again guano… no ill-pun intended!

 

[guanophore]

I think you can be saved if you are not a registered Catholic. For example, wasn’t the good thief at the cross saved and he was not a baptized, officially registered Roman Catholic? St. Joseph is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore he is saved, yet, I don;t see where he was baptized and registered as a Roman Catholic?

Yes, of course one does not have to be registered in a Catholic parish to be saved.

We do not know that the good thief was not baptized. He may have been among those John baptized, or even the disciples.

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

Human beings have always been saved the same way, by grace, through faith. Jesus set up His Church as the means by which humans are saved. We are saved “through the Church”. Even those OT saints like Joseph are saved through the Church. Jesus is united with His Church, and is not separated from His Holy Bride, whose Head He is. There is no salvation outside of Christ, and therefore, no salvation outside of His Body.

 

[guanophore]

But is there any evidence that they were baptized or that they were registered Catholics? I think you can be saved without being baptized by water in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I think that there is salvation for many non-Catholics who were outside of the Catholic Church during their lifetime.

Were you under some misapprehension that we believe differently?

 

[Tomdstone]

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”. .

You might tell that to the official site of the Holy See, which uses the term Roman Catholic Church in hundreds of places on the official Vatican website. Example:
“(Vatican Radio) The Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has released a Communiqué …”

 

[guanophore]

You might tell that to the official site of the Holy See, which uses the term Roman Catholic Church in hundreds of places on the official Vatican website. Example:
“(Vatican Radio) The Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church has released a Communiqué …”

It has frequently been used in official documents, especially in ecumenical tasks to distinguish it from other Communions calling themselves Catholic that are not in unity with the successor of Peter. There are 23 Rites in the CC, only one is Latin, or “Roman”. It happens to be the largest and most well known in the West. All the non-Latin Rites are equal in value and Catholiicity.

 

[Tomdstone]

It has frequently been used in official documents,

I don’t see the basis for your objection to the term Roman Catholic, if the Holy See uses this exact same term on their website. Is the Holy See wrong ?

 

[guanophore]

I don’t see the basis for your objection to the term Roman Catholic, if the Holy See uses this exact same term on their website. Is the Holy See wrong ?

I am objecting to the use of it in post # 60. The teaching of ENNS refers to the Catholic Church in it’s entirety, not the Roman Rite. Using “Roman” in this context disregards the non-Latin Rites.

 

[PJM]

**I don’t think Catholicism considers those communities without a valid Eucharist as “in the body” either. But that might be debatable. Especially because Baptism brings one into the Church.
**

CORRECTION:

While Baptism does make one a member of the Christian Community; it is nevertheless in correct to say that “they” ARE members of the ONE True Church. Such CANNOT have differing Faith beliefs.

Individuals, for sure can, through faith in the Gospel, and searching His Scripture, and being Baptized, enter into a Communion of the Body of Christ, though it is an imperfect, or wounded Communion.

Paul says"

1st Cor. 11: 23-30

[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.** [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.** [28]** But let a man prove himself:[BELIEVE] and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.** [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.[Have condemened themselves to Eternal Hell]

God Bless us!

[/QUOTE]