B
benhur
Guest
yes , she is an enigma to staunch legalists (a bit like myself, legalistic that is).
- Status
C
Church_Militant
Guest
That’s completely inaccurate. We even have a specific sacrament called Confirmation that has long been in place and the source of that same filling of the Holy Spirit. Sone saints over the years have displayed various gifts of the Spirit, but glossolalia has not always been in evidence, nor is it scripturally the benchmark or litmus test of a Spirit filled life according to the New Testament.
Irrelevant…
If you say so, but in my experience during several years as a deacon in the AoG that most Pentecostals are pretty selective about what they say they believe about those scriptures versus what those passages actually say, though just as you just did they often assert otherwise.
You mean this?
[1] There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.
[2] And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
[3] And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide by what his ears hear;
[4] but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
[5] Righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist,
and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.
[6] The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
and the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
[7] The cow and the bear shall feed;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
I have never been taught such a thing and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are also found in ***Galatians 5:[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. ***
G
guanophore
Guest
It is certainly more challenging if one rejects the provisions of grace Jesus has instituted. But Catholics acknowledge that the Orthodox also have valid Holy Orders and Valid Sacraments, and many EO are no fans of the CC either.
Think about it benhur. If you were convinced that Jesus only founded One Church, and that His Church was the one that preserved the One Faith handed down from the Apostles, surely you would not knowingly refuse to enter that Church!
Besides the Church does not teach there is no grace for communion and reconciliation outside visible Catholicism. As a matter of fact, there are many Protestants who have a more genuine and holy spiritual communion at Eucharist than Catholics who approach the sacrament in an unworthy manner.
L
ltwin
Guest
The poster can speak for him/herself, but it’s likely that they’re coming from a very specific segment of the movement that holds a set of beliefs that are outside of mainstream Pentecostalism. These beliefs being the following:
- “Salvation” includes 3 distinct elements: First, the standard evangelical conversion experience (faith and initial repentance); Second, water baptism; Third, Spirit baptism as evidenced by speaking in tongues.
- By extension, water baptism is regenerative and you are not saved unless you have been water baptized and you speak in tongues (which is the evidence that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit).
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Yes because Pope Benedict says that there has been a “profound evolution of Dogma” with respect to the Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church.
catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2016/03/16/pope-emeritus-benedict-breaks-silence-speaks-of-deep-crisis-facing-church-post-vatican-ii/
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
no, she didn’t quiet up. she kind of gave me a look to see if I had heard
her or trying to see a reaction from me. But she kept talking.
R
rcwitness
Guest
an interesting article. And I don’t even have a formed reaction… but for what it’s worth…
Benedict seems to always have an “uncomfortableness” with the lack of sacrifice the Church practices over the hard issues. This phrase “profound evolution of Dogma” is an interesting choice of words. One I, and probably he, is not comfortable with. I think it’s an admition that the Church has folded back on the absolute firmness, out of both sympathy and cowardness.
If the Church rejected salvation in the denominations (invalid Eucharist partakers) there would be a drastically different Christian world. Was it good of the Church to acknowledge the denominations as containing salvation? It has pros and cons. Was it the Truth? I believe it was kinda like the Moses allowing for divorce. Now the Church has “allowed” an imperfect Communion. It was for the sake of embracing the outside fringe Believer. But it was a compromise of the True strength of His Eucharist!
B
benhur
Guest
Hi G,
Yes thanks for that clarification. I knew I was being very general and not remebering it all too clearly, the details that is.
Correct, and it is more I am not convinced of the Catholic position (then perhaps I am not* knowingly *sinning).
Well, maybe, and that would be kind. But again, the "pretzel’ as in do we have a "valid’’ Eucharist, and how are mortal sins forgiven without “Confession” , which man P’s do not have, observe ?
Blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
I think the template, for us so many generations away from the Apostles, can really be the manner (and leadership) of how, and who, established/confirmed the Canon of Scripture. It’s like the Eucharist, who you receive Scripture/Eucharist through, is who you profess to contain the guidance of His Word. And personal understanding comes by listening to the Spirit in harmony with obeying leadership.
The punishment/consequence of an invalid Eucharist will be an inevitable acceptance of some false teaching, and therefore some construction in the body which will suffer loss and ruin.
Confession through a priest is bound to the Catholic. How a non-Catholic practices the necessary confession of sins, which affect the body, is on their conscience and up to Jesus to judge. I think the principle of confession can be met in part, unto reconciliation, yet full restoration and penance may always lack.
So both will heavily rely on Purgatory…
R
rcwitness
Guest
Wow. That’s… ummm, I’m not sure what to think.
It appears we had a hit and run with the poster, anyway. But thanks for trying to not leave us high and dry. And I’m sure you naturally wanted to distinguish your communion with this?
B
benhur
Guest
Hi rc,
So the you can get to heaven, even if thru purgatory, without the 2 mentioned sacraments?
Mortall sin can be forgiven without the Confessional? One can see the kingdom without truly eating His flesh ?
See the “pretzel” ?
Blessings
S
steve_b
Guest
R
rcwitness
Guest
Yes, though I tried to explain my understanding of it.
It’s as though a group of Christians have been testing how “minimal” they can comply to Church Teaching. And the Church is trying to “stretch” the boundaries!
I didn’t say confession through the brothers and sisters is not necessary to all Christians. But we have been given the normal and Apostolic means to receive absolution with assurance.
And the Written Word (to the properly Baptized) has been granted, as materially sufficient food, which “can” sustain a communion to the body, if the commands are kept, in spite of Invincible Ignorance.
Does that make sense to you?
R
rcwitness
Guest
Btw, I’m not sure the Church Teaches that mortal sin committed after Baptism can be forgiven outside the Sacrament. This is part of the “unknown” that Protestants place themselves into. It’s the genuine, Invincible Ignorant who cannot be culpable for what they are not aware of.
And maybe those non-Catholic Christians who have been counted worthy are in fact given His Eucharist after Purgatory/before entrace?
And maybe those non-Catholic Christians who have been counted worthy are in fact given His Eucharist after Purgatory/before entrace?
S
steve_b
Guest
all emphasis mine
Re: ignorance
1791 , ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
Re: contrition for sin
1452 , When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
L
ltwin
Guest
Well, its a minority opinion that the vast majority of Pentecostals consider wrong, but we are often made guilty by association, especially the part about “salvific” tongues (no one, it seems, ever accuses us of believing that water baptism is necessary to be saved). We are attacked by our critics for teaching the “no salvation without tongues” view, but the truth is that is a fringe belief.Wow. That’s… ummm, I’m not sure what to think.
It appears we had a hit and run with the poster, anyway. But thanks for trying to not leave us high and dry. And I’m sure you naturally wanted to distinguish your communion with this?
R
rcwitness
Guest
good references. It’s just that we are talking about non-Catholic Christians. It gets lost in grey matter at some point, for me. That’s why I just need to apply my prayers and devotions to the Spirit of the Catholic Church! But I, and many Catholics, try to embrace the genuine ones. At least we believe there are genuine ones, only God knows.
P
PJM
Guest
Through a common Baptism & belief in the Same Triune God; BIT not in FAITH beliefs. They remain Christians, not Catholics: yes:shrug:
God Bless,
Patrick
P
PJM
Guest
It is certainly more challenging if one rejects the provisions of grace Jesus has instituted. But Catholics acknowledge that the Orthodox also have valid Holy Orders and Valid Sacraments, and many EO are no fans of the CC either.
Think about it benhur. If you were convinced that Jesus only founded One Church, and that His Church was the one that preserved the One Faith handed down from the Apostles, surely you would not knowingly refuse to enter that Church!
Besides the Church does not teach there is no grace for communion and reconciliation outside visible Catholicism. As a matter of fact, there are many Protestants who have a more genuine and holy spiritual communion at Eucharist than Catholics who approach the sacrament in an unworthy manner.
Maybe you’ll have better “luck” than did I with our friend Benhur?God Bless you both
B
benhur
Guest
Hi rc,
Yes, that is how I would see it in your shoes. However, the other shoe is not a question of minimizing but only having a different understanding, and experience , even assurance ( of a valid eucharisting and sin forgiveness etc…).
Blessings
- Status