Pentacostal friend says Catholics are not saved

[steve_b]

I have recently had a conversation with a woman who I keep running into. I kept wondering why I kept seeing her around town. The first time I saw her she was praying for the woman sharing my hospital room. We both had broken ankles. This woman praying made an impression on me. She seemed to be strong and have faith.
I would see her at the retail store where I worked or the mall or grocery store and wonder why God was making our paths cross.
So the other night she was at the restaurant where I was and I said hi and she sat down and we began chatting. She had told me before she attends a couple of churches and does various ministries. She calls herself a Pentecostal and also said she was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic women’s college and her husband went to a Jesuit college and they were married many years then he asked for a divorce and became New Age and she became a Protestant and was saved. Throughout the conversation she repeated that Catholics aren’t saved. I wanted to ask her if someone had made her feel guilty for being Catholic.
Are Pentecostals anti-Catholic and why do they think Catholics are not saved?

She’s probably soooo ticked off at her husband and rightly so, she can’t see anything outside that situation. I’ll guess that’s the height and summit of her issues. Everything else pales, and comes in, further down her list of issues.

 

[spedteacherita]

To put it bluntly, they don’t believe Catholics are saved because they believe in heretical doctrines. I can easily see why they think all Catholics are damned from their point of view, if you understand all of their false theology.

Some Pentacostals don’t believe anyone is saved unless they’ve received the gift of tongues. I wrangled with my ex brother-in-law about this. He also believed that one would be healed of all sicknesses - I asked him if because I wore glasses that I wasn’t saved? His answer was, “You said it.” All the time he had bottles of liquor hidden around the house and he was abusing my sister and his children.

No one can outright say that so and so is not saved because they don’t know the heart of others. Only God can know if someone is really saved - it’s not our place to judge others.

 

[powerofk]

Yeah, I once saw a homily delivered by an Eastern Orthodox bishop that said that “Protestants drink the blood of children”, to paraphrase. I assume most EO’s don’t believe that either. I guess there’s bigots and extremists everywhere.

That there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church isn’t a ‘narrow’ view; this is indeed the doctrine that the Church teaches. Now, I don’t know what possible narrow interpretation Fr. Feeney was giving this doctrine, what it basically means is that it is God, Jesus Christ, as the Church understands Him that does the saving, whether the person being saved is Catholic or not.

IIRC, Feeney’s interpretation of “No salvation outside of the Catholic Church” pretty much was that all Protestants are going to Hell because they’re not Catholic, and that anyone who isn’t Catholic (even if they’ve never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel preached to them) is automatically going to Hell. That’s not what the Church means by “No salvation outside the Catholic Church”.

 

[adf417]

Pentecostalism is a movement not a single denomination. There are several Pentecostal denominations, such as the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, the Church of God in Christ, the Pentecostal Holiness Church, etc. In North America, Pentecostals cooperate in the Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America.

Furthermore, our denominational bodies do not generally seek to legislate every aspect of our faith. We leave many decisions to the Scripture-informed conscience of the believer.

Hi Itwin, While I understand your personal position it still begs the question…

If there is a Pentecostal denomination that is teaching “Cathoics are not saved”, can this teaching be an orthodox teaching of the gospel? If not is this denomination still considered part of the body of Christ? If yes, explain.

Peace!!!

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I was raised Pentecostal myself, so let me give this a go. First off: not all Pentecostal denominations believe precisely the same things, so take the broad applicability of these thoughts this with a grain of salt.

Okay: whatever else Pentecostals are. they are Nicene Christians, whether or not they’re actually familiar with the Nicene Creed. To them, being a Christian means consciously, purposely accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, accepting His divinity, and accepting the various other Nicene propositions (even though their understanding of “Catholic” would necessarily be lowercase “c”).

Thanks to the state of modern Catholic catechesis, not every baptized cradle Catholic actually seems to fully understand or sincerely subscribe to the Nicene construal of Christianity–not even every active, churchgoing Catholic! To a Pentecostal (as to most Evangelical Christians), Christianity is creedal or it is nothing: if you don’t actually understand or consciously subscribe to the basic tents of Christianity, then you’re not a Christian, period–baptism, confirmation, etc., is neither here nor there. From their viewpoint, being a baptized, practicing Catholic is no necessary guarantee of being a Christian.

Now, that doesn’t mean that being a Catholic is inconsistent with being a Christian, either. But depending on what sort of Catholics a cradle non-Catholic runs into in his life, it can certainly reinforce the vaguely inherited notion that Catholicism is orthogonal to Christianity as such … and can even function as a kind of substitute for a genuinely creedal belief. From there, it’s easy to fall into the error that Catholicism and Christianity are at odds in a way.

 

[guanophore]

If there is a Pentecostal denomination that is teaching “Cathoics are not saved”, can this teaching be an orthodox teaching of the gospel? If not is this denomination still considered part of the body of Christ? If yes, explain.

Peace!!!

Perhaps a review of Itwin’s post would be helpful. He is not claiming that there is such a thing as a “Pentecostal denomination” or that there is any such official teaching of this kind.

** This is what we would say of any Christian**, by the way. (We don’t ascribe salvation according to church membership or the partaking of a sacrament but according to whether the person has been experientially born again by the Holy Spirit).

Furthermore, we would only consider one a Christian who has had this experiential conversion experience. Therefore, even someone who attended a Pentecostal church and even been baptized but had never had a born again experience would not be considered a Christian by us. However, this often gets lost in translation when in dialogue with Catholics who seem to think we are singling Catholics out when in fact we are being consistent even with our own nominal Pentecostals.

He is not singling out Catholics.

I agree with Adonia about basing it on personal experience.

I have had many conversations with people like her and the bottom line is this**: If you are not having the same Christian experience as her then you have it all wrong and thus are not saved.**

All you can do is live your Catholic faith as you are doing and have a mutual respect for each other’s viewpoint. We live in an over 55 RV park in Florida and one of my wife’s best friends is an AOG person. They take what is common (Jesus) and leave everything else alone.

I think this is great advice. Personal holiness is very pursuasive.

Some Pentecostals also do not know that the CC supports the Charismatic gifts, so sharing this informaiton can be helpful.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Thank you all for your responses. They were helpful and gave me some things to think about. I feel strong in my Catholic faith. I don’t want to be around someone that will always be making condescending comments about the Catholic faith. I will be on guard. If she does call to want to meet for lunch again I will just play it by ear. It would be nice to have a friend to get together with every now and then to chat with. If I did talk to her about my Catholic faith I would say how important the Mass and the Eucharist are to me. Maybe the Holy Spirit will guide me to plant little seeds that will grow and she might want to return to the Catholic church. I did tell her how I admire the faith she has to carry her crosses. In the meantime I will concentrate on my walk with Jesus.

 

[Michael68]

Some Pentecostals are anti-Catholic, but others are actually very ecumenically minded. Converts from the Catholic faith tend to be very anti-Catholic, in my experience. I don’t know the reason for this.

As far as Pentecostalism is concerned, like other evangelicals, we have a view of the Catholic Church that is pretty consistent across the board. In its teachings concerning the authority of Sacred Tradition, the nature and administration of the sacraments, the role of good works in Christian life, its claims of Apostolic Succession, and its (in our view) unhelpful practice of praying to saints, the Catholic Church is seen as encouraging a type of mechanical religion in which you go through the motions but there is no inner conversion of the heart and one that corrupts the role of Jesus Christ as sole mediator.

Many Pentecostals will not go as far as saying that Catholics can’t be saved. What we would say though is that those Catholics who are saved are saved because they have put their faith in Christ–not because they were baptized as Catholics.

This is what we would say of any Christian, by the way. (We don’t ascribe salvation according to church membership or the partaking of a sacrament but according to whether the person has been experientially born again by the Holy Spirit).

Furthermore, we would only consider one a Christian who has had this experiential conversion experience. Therefore, even someone who attended a Pentecostal church and even been baptized but had never had a born again experience would not be considered a Christian by us. However, this often gets lost in translation when in dialogue with Catholics who seem to think we are singling Catholics out when in fact we are being consistent even with our own nominal Pentecostals.

What is a "born again experience "?

 

[ltwin]

What is a "born again experience "?

The new birth or regeneration occurs as part of the order of salvation accompanying election, faith, repentance, justification, and adoption. In the words of a Pentecostal theologian, it is:

a creative act of God’s grace. God brings into being a new origin of existence. The biblical analogy for this act is the new birth, a birth from above. This creative act implants the seed of the life of Christ and brings forth a new creation in Christ, created anew in mind, emotions and will.* The agents of this act of God are His Word and Spirit. The sole instrument of its reception is faith. The evidences that this new creation has occurred are the shedding abroad of the love of God in the heart, the presence of the renewed image of God (manifested in the fruit of the Spirit) and the cessation of the life of sin.

 

[Micosil]

IIRC, Feeney’s interpretation of “No salvation outside of the Catholic Church” pretty much was that all Protestants are going to Hell because they’re not Catholic, and that anyone who isn’t Catholic (even if they’ve never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel preached to them) is automatically going to Hell. That’s not what the Church means by “No salvation outside the Catholic Church”.

Then if that is what Fr. Feeney believes and teaches, that is indeed problematic.

 

[Kliska]

If I did talk to her about my Catholic faith I would say how important the Mass and the Eucharist are to me.

Please don’t take this as me telling you how to talk about your faith, but it may also shed some light on all of this; if you talk of the importance of Mass and the Eucharist in a way that is staunch, or fervent, etc… before you guys establish you are both believers in Jesus and His grace in general, the more she will think you are looking to the institution, or some type of ritual to save you instead of Jesus.

Obviously that is not Catholic teaching, but if she doesn’t know that, then talking of the Mass and Eucharist will underscore her misconception. If I may add a little guidance, establish with her first that you trust in Jesus to save you by His grace. Talk about your love of Christ and your relationship to Him, how you trust Him, and about His death and resurrection. If she can “get” that side of Catholic teaching (which is general Christian teaching), then the rest will be much more likely to be listened to at least with an open mind. Again, all that is if you want to dialogue with her anymore.

 

[guanophore]

Please don’t take this as me telling you how to talk about your faith, but it may also shed some light on all of this; if you talk of the importance of Mass and the Eucharist in a way that is staunch, or fervent, etc… before you guys establish you are both believers in Jesus and His grace in general, the more she will think you are looking to the institution, or some type of ritual to save you instead of Jesus.

Obviously that is not Catholic teaching, but if she doesn’t know that, then talking of the Mass and Eucharist will underscore her misconception. If I may add a little guidance, establish with her first that you trust in Jesus to save you by His grace. Talk about your love of Christ and your relationship to Him, how you trust Him, and about His death and resurrection. If she can “get” that side of Catholic teaching (which is general Christian teaching), then the rest will be much more likely to be listened to at least with an open mind. Again, all that is if you want to dialogue with her anymore.

This is excellent advice. Many Bible Christians think that the “rituals” of Catholiism obscure the Gospel, so putting it terms they are familiar wth, such as the “personal relationship with Jesus” will help overcome the gap. Since they don’t believe in the Real Presence, they don’t think of the Liturgy as a point of encounter with the risen Christ.

It will also help to communicate love of Scripture. Most Bible Christians do not know that Catholics get more Scripture at Mass than they do at their services. They get more “preaching” but not as much variety. Love of Scripture is a good way to connect with Bible Christians.

 

[PJM]

To put it bluntly, they don’t believe Catholics are saved because they believe in heretical doctrines. I can easily see why they think all Catholics are damned from their point of view, if you understand all of their false theology.

So, for the sake of clarification my friend,

WHAT is their basis for such a position?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

I cannot say for sure how ALL Protestants feel about Catholics. I have talked with some who are: passionate about their faith, involved in mission work, focus on the oneness in Christ and encourage others to have a relationship with Him, while others say Catholics: Pray to statues, worship Mary, have rituals and traditions, and try to earn our way into heaven instead of believing that by Christ’s death and resurrection alone we are saved. (The saved by faith alone vs saved by faith and good works )
As we know, many of these objections are due to a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself. The Catholic bible contains 73 books. The Protestant bible contains 66 books. Of course there will be differences!
I must admit, there were times I was reluctant to say “I am Catholic”, or “While I was at Adoration…” or “When I was praying the rosary…” But now, I don’t hesitate to say these things! I was speaking with a Protestant woman who asked, “Does your church still have confession each week?” And “Really? You can have Eucharist at EVERY mass, everyday?” She said, “That’s wonderful!”
Stand firmly in your faith! If someone says something hurtful and untrue, offer it up to God!
This would fall under persecution for your faith. We are all better off when we keep our oneness in Christ at the center! God bless you!

AMEN! Thanks

 

[PJM]

I would say be VERY cautious! She seems to want you to listen to her but she is not willing to hear your side of Catholicism. Don’t let her cast doubts on your Faith. Go to catholic.com and you can find answers to all those questions. Ask her questions. like, “What do you believe about John, 6. and the Holy Eucharist. And how old is your denomination? How do you feel about the Mother of Jesus”. etc. And Pray for her. God Bless, Memaw

I AGREE

Be CAUTIOUS!

If the opportunity presents itself; you might direct the conversation towards this end:

Q: Can God hold to more than a single set of defined faith beliefs?

Q: Where in the bible even one time did God; Yahweh or Jesus ever

approve
tolerate
accept
agree with
permit
over-look

OTHER Faith beliefs than His Own?

FYI:
The FOUNDER of CAf; Karl Keating authored a fantastic book on this very topic

CATHOLIC & FUNDAMENTALISM: the attack on Romanism by BIBLE CHRISTIANS

GOOGLE IT, it’s a MUST read IMO:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

I cannot say for sure how ALL Protestants feel about Catholics. I have talked with some who are: passionate about their faith, involved in mission work, focus on the oneness in Christ and encourage others to have a relationship with Him, while others say Catholics: Pray to statues, worship Mary, have rituals and traditions, and try to earn our way into heaven instead of believing that by Christ’s death and resurrection alone we are saved. (The saved by faith alone vs saved by faith and good works )
As we know, many of these objections are due to a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself. The Catholic bible contains 73 books. The Protestant bible contains 66 books. Of course there will be differences!
I must admit, there were times I was reluctant to say “I am Catholic”, or “While I was at Adoration…” or “When I was praying the rosary…” But now, I don’t hesitate to say these things! I was speaking with a Protestant woman who asked, “Does your church still have confession each week?” And “Really? You can have Eucharist at EVERY mass, everyday?” She said, “That’s wonderful!”
Stand firmly in your faith! If someone says something hurtful and untrue, offer it up to God!
This would fall under persecution for your faith. We are all better off when we keep our oneness in Christ at the center! God bless you!

WELCOME TO CAF,

We are to:

Know WELL our Catholic Faith

Share it with clarity [facts] & with Charity when the HS gives us that opportunity to do so

& Defend it with that same clarity & charity when necessary

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

that is what I was wondering, and I would love to be able to bring her back to the Catholic Church. I am a convert myself of 8 years. We were supposed to go to a late lunch on Friday and I invited her to the Stations of the Cross on Friday evening, but she declined to attend the Stations and then cancelled the lunch too saying she was too tired. We set another time to get together Saturday afternoon and she cancelled again. Maybe just talking to me it is stirring up something inside of her that she is fighting. I wasn’t going to spend my time with her 100% trying to revert her back to Catholicism but I truly think she is nice and has a beautiful spirit because she gives so much of herself. She is divorced and her ex has passed and she has 2 adult children with disabilities of some kind- one lives in a place where he is looked after and her adult daughter has an apartment. A third son lives 2 1/2 hours away and she hasn’t seen him in 25 years. She is 74 and seems so strong and such a strong faith in Jesus. So since she has cancelled twice, I am going to wait and see if she calls again and set some boundaries. I don’t want her to think I only want to be friends in order to bring her back to Church. I am divorced too and 10 years younger, but I am lonely too and I live with my son and daughter-in-law and take care of my grandkids. I moved to the town I live in 8 years ago and don’t have many friends so I was hoping she might be someone I might be able to get together with once a month to have breakfast or lunch with and have a friendship, but maybe Pentecostals and Catholics can’t be friends. I remember now a co-worker I once knew who was Pentecostal and I thought she was nice too, but I always felt she judged me as a Catholic. Since I am a Catholic of only 8 years I don’t know If this is something I will encounter often. I would welcome any advice.

GET THE BOOK authored by CAF Founder Karl Keeting

CATHOLICISM & FUNDAMENTALISM…The ATTACK on Romanism by Bible Christians…

Without it one can EASILY be over-matched:thumbsup:

Blessings,
PJM

 

[PJM]

My opinion is to put all misunderstanding in it place…

If not all Pentacostals believe Catholics are not saved, and they don’t, then their own denomination is in disunity. Ask her why that is, point out their disunity, and let them figure it out as they have no Magestorium telling them where they are diviating from a unified belief of their own denomination.

If a Catholic were to believe, “Methodits are not Christian”, it is easy for the Methodist to correct the Catholic by goin to the CCC and other offical documents to correct this Catholic. “Pentacostals” and other denominations in general do not have the unity they think they have and this is a prime example.

Peace!!!

Good post:thumbsup:

 

[Padres1969]

This is excellent advice. Many Bible Christians think that the “rituals” of Catholiism obscure the Gospel, so putting it terms they are familiar wth, such as the “personal relationship with Jesus” will help overcome the gap. Since they don’t believe in the Real Presence, they don’t think of the Liturgy as a point of encounter with the risen Christ.

It will also help to communicate love of Scripture. Most Bible Christians do not know that Catholics get more Scripture at Mass than they do at their services. They get more “preaching” but not as much variety. Love of Scripture is a good way to connect with Bible Christians.

And it’s probably good to point out that Catholics and other Liturgical traditions like Anglicans and Lutherans, do get preaching as well at thier services during the homily or sermon. But that biblical based teaching doesn’t end with mass. Many Catholic and Liturgical protestant churches have bible study classes/forums that in my experience are much closer to the in service preaching at Pentecostal churches.

 

[guanophore]

So, for the sake of clarification my friend,

WHAT is their basis for such a position?

God Bless you,

Patrick

The bible, of course! If it isn’t in the bible, then it is off track!