Pentacostalism

[ThomasDoubter]

Hello all,

Firstly, sorry this is a bit on the long side! I am attempting to reconnect with Christ, having lived as an Asatru pagan for some time. As a Roman Catholic in my youth, I was Baptised, took Holy Communion and was Confirmed.

Recently I have talked spiritually to some friends of mine who I believed were Methodist. They have been missionaries in various places worldwide, and have quite an intimate knowledge of Scripture.

Anyway, last Sunday during a long prayer of repentance, my friend called for me to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, in order that I could be ‘born again’. I have to admit to feeling an incredible sense of peace and joy as I sought forgiveness for my past.

Now for this bit. To be honest, this is difficult, because if I were reading this I would be thinking ‘Oh no…here we go…TV evangelist…’. I started to talk gibberish, but there was a fluidity about it that was freaky. I felt detached from what I was saying. I could think of something else, and just let the mouth babble. I was told it is ‘speaking in tongues’. A phenomenon I had heard of, but didn’t know what it was. My wife (searching for faith as well) was a little taken aback, as was I. At first she thought I was joking. She said it sounded Arabic, but it was no language to me, either past or present!

I don’t know what prompted this urge to babble, and I have not been able to do it since. I accepted my friends explanation that it was the work of the Holy Spirit, with reservations. I don’t believe it was divinely inspired, but merely some form of human reaction to a state of religious ecstasy. That is not to say I was jumping around and shouting, but the prayer did produce a powerful sensation in me.

My problem now is, I have since found out my friends are Pentecostal, and reading more about the Pentecostal Church (since the events of last weekend), the less I want to get involved. I am drawn back to Catholicism, but living where I live (in a remote part of Sweden) the only Church close to me is ‘Pingstkyrkan’, or Pentecostal! They have told me (after I expressed my renewed enthusiasm in Catholicism) that Catholicism is misguided at best; the veneration of Mary and the Saints is plain wrong. The Church and it’d doctrines are the work of man, and not divinely inspired. You get the picture…

How can I revive my Catholic faith and yet worship in a Church that I have major doubts about? I want to - as my friends term it - have fellowship with other Christians to help me strengthen my faith, but fear the two are totally incompatible.

I feel kind of ‘pulled this way and that’ just now! Finding faith is not easy after so long away. So many Churches with so many differences - all telling you that ‘this is the right way - they are wrong’. I am reading a book on the Catholic Faith by Richard Conrad OP at the moment, but I’m struggling with a spiritual overload - Catholicism, Pentacostalism and lingering pagan apathy towards Christianity in general.

Any advice - or constructive criticism - would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Izdaari]

Hi! Pentecostal here, though not quite the same as your friends, I think. :egyptian:

Speaking in tongues happens in some Catholic Churches too. Check out the Charismatic Catholic Renewal.

While I agree with some of your friends’ criticism of the CC, I do think Catholics are real Christians, and the CC is a valid church, if not the valid church as it claims. While we differ on some theology, we share the same Christ, which is the most important thing. And that you’ve back to Him is awesome news!

Personally, if I were in your situation, with no church available but a Catholic one, I would worship there. As I see it, the fellowship of fellow Christians is more important than which church.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hello all,

Firstly, sorry this is a bit on the long side! I am attempting to reconnect with Christ, having lived as an Asatru pagan for some time. As a Roman Catholic in my youth, I was Baptised, took Holy Communion and was Confirmed.

Recently I have talked spiritually to some friends of mine who I believed were Methodist. They have been missionaries in various places worldwide, and have quite an intimate knowledge of Scripture.

Anyway, last Sunday during a long prayer of repentance, my friend called for me to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, in order that I could be ‘born again’. I have to admit to feeling an incredible sense of peace and joy as I sought forgiveness for my past.

Now for this bit. To be honest, this is difficult, because if I were reading this I would be thinking ‘Oh no…here we go…TV evangelist…’. I started to talk gibberish, but there was a fluidity about it that was freaky. I felt detached from what I was saying. I could think of something else, and just let the mouth babble. I was told it is ‘speaking in tongues’. A phenomenon I had heard of, but didn’t know what it was. My wife (searching for faith as well) was a little taken aback, as was I. At first she thought I was joking. She said it sounded Arabic, but it was no language to me, either past or present!

I don’t know what prompted this urge to babble, and I have not been able to do it since. I accepted my friends explanation that it was the work of the Holy Spirit, with reservations. I don’t believe it was divinely inspired, but merely some form of human reaction to a state of religious ecstasy. That is not to say I was jumping around and shouting, but the prayer did produce a powerful sensation in me.

My problem now is, I have since found out my friends are Pentecostal, and reading more about the Pentecostal Church (since the events of last weekend), the less I want to get involved. I am drawn back to Catholicism, but living where I live (in a remote part of Sweden) the only Church close to me is ‘Pingstkyrkan’, or Pentecostal! They have told me (after I expressed my renewed enthusiasm in Catholicism) that Catholicism is misguided at best; the veneration of Mary and the Saints is plain wrong. The Church and it’d doctrines are the work of man, and not divinely inspired. You get the picture…

How can I revive my Catholic faith and yet worship in a Church that I have major doubts about? I want to - as my friends term it - have fellowship with other Christians to help me strengthen my faith, but fear the two are totally incompatible.

I feel kind of ‘pulled this way and that’ just now! Finding faith is not easy after so long away. So many Churches with so many differences - all telling you that ‘this is the right way - they are wrong’. I am reading a book on the Catholic Faith by Richard Conrad OP at the moment, but I’m struggling with a spiritual overload - Catholicism, Pentacostalism and lingering pagan apathy towards Christianity in general.

Any advice - or constructive criticism - would be greatly appreciated.

As a Catholic you cannot worship in a different church and more so in a church that you have major doubts.

In the Catholic Church we have the Catholic Charismatic Renewal which is a recognized spirituality by the Church. It has something similar with the Pentacostal like being born again though in CCR it called simply a renewal of our faith in Baptism. However, Pentacostals are way different from Catholicism; they do not believe what we believe so it is wise to stay away from them in term of worship.

Look out for prayer meetings or Covenant Communities or other expression of Charismatic movements in your parish if you are drawn to something similar.

God bless.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

Thanks for the replies!

To be fair to my friends and Izdaari, they have pointed out that faith in Jesus Christ is all you need to be saved. In this they are succeeding (I’m a work in progress!), and I thank them from the bottom of my heart. And I have to say, I do not doubt the genuine Christianity I witnessed at the one Pentecostal Church service I have been to previously.

My misgivings regarding Pentacostalism centre on the ‘gifts’ that are so important to some (not all, I accept!) Pentacostalists. For example, one guy at the Church allegedly has the gift of propecy; another can interpret ‘Tongues’ and give meaning. When I began speaking in Tongues, my friend commenced as well. Apparently, she can speak (and even sing) in tongues at will. My wife felt a little isolated and it is not something I will ever repeat (if indeed I ever could!) for that reason. There appears to be an elitism regarding these gifts that contradicts the teachings of Christ Himself.

I will read up on the Charismatic Catholic Renewal. The ‘speaking in tongues’ has had a bit of a negative effect on me, and it will be interesting to read a Catholic perspective.

 

[po18guy]

It is indeed the Holy Spirit Who is calling you back to faith. He may have used some Pentecostals to do this, but the Pentecostal movement and their unique beliefs and practices go back only a very short time. In looking for the true faith, the true Church, you must trace it back to Christ, through His apostles and their successors. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, but it is not for repentance or forgiveness, but to release the gifts of the Holy Spirit which you already received at your Confirmation. This particular branch of Pentecostalism seems to have blended at least three Christian Sacraments together: Baptism, Reconciliation and Confirmation. But, you are not born again through solely the Holy Spirit, but by water and the Spirit (John 3:3-5), and they did not use water. How can this be a true practice? That is a non-original belief in Christianity, and quite new to arrive. Keep in mind that there are various types of Pentecostalism - which one is correct, and how can you know? How can a faith community, no matter how inviting or attractive it is, be genuine if it is only 100, or at most, 500 years old? Christ founded one Apostolic Church and sent Apostles forth with powers given to no one else. Those powers have been handed on through the centuries to today. He sent them forth to administer the Sacraments, which are outward signs of inner grace from God.

Christ promised to remain with us until the end of time. He left us the Holy Eucharist as His presence. It is the source and summit of our faith and stands as His presence with us. It is His Body and Blood, and I wish that every human on earth could commune with Christ so intimately. Worthy reception of the Holy Eucharist, which is Christ’s Body and Blood, has the actual power to forgive sin. You have the great good fortune of having been fully initiated into the One, Holy, Catholic (“universal”) and Apostolic Church - a wonderful blessing. Now, you have some difficulties with Church teaching - you are in excellent company, since many former protestants of all varieties, Jews, Muslims and those of all other faiths (or no faith) have studied and examined the Catholic faith. They have put it to the test, and they have converted. Famous and recent examples abound.

There is a richness and depth to the Catholic Church that comes, not only from the almost two millennia of her existence, but from Christ Himself. I heartily recommend that you make contact with your local Catholic parish and ask about ‘inquiry’, or ‘RCIA’ classes. In them, the teachings will be explained to you. It is then a matter of properly forming your conscience, then following that conscience in make a decision to return to the Church. Do not make a hasty decision, based on a single experience with any given church, but test the Church that you are attracted to. Test it through its history, its Apostolic line of succession which traces in an unbroken line directly to Jesus, test it through whether or not it is universal - existing all over the world (Matthew 28:19). Test it as to whether or not it has the Holy Eucharist, as consecrated by the successors of the Apostles. There is only one Church which can possibly pass all of these tests, and you are already a member. Know that all other Christian sects (exception: the Orthodox Churches) trace back only a few years or centuries and their history stops dead at the door of the Catholic Church, from which they split off.

If you would like a good book to teach you the faith on your own time, please check into Catholicism for Dummies by Fr. John Trigilio and Fr. Kenneth Brighenti. Beside the source I gave, it is available at many national and local bookstores. It is an excellent book which explains the faith in understandable terms.

I am praying for you and may God bless your journey back to faith.

 

[Blessed_Beggar]

As a person in RCIA now, excited to finally be joining the Catholic Church after a long discernment, let me say that the fullness of Faith is found only here in the East and West Churches of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. As a former Pentecostal, let me echo the sentiments of those posting before me that if you are able, steer clear from the teachings that are being thrown before you by these evangelicals. The history of the Charismatic movement is roughly just more than 100 years old, and stems from a desperate failing minister that wanted to re-“energize” his ministry and have the appeal of the first-century Apostles. Since the protestant reformation, there has been roughly 39,000 different denominations to spring up, of which 11,000 or so are Charismatic/Pentecostal in nature.
Picture this…in only 100 years, there has been 11,000 schisms and splittings in this single movement! The Holy Spirit, we are told in Scripture, is a unifying Spirit that will lead and guide us into all knowledge and understanding. If the Pentecostal churches are following the same Spirit that we know…then why so many splits? Careful reading of 1 Corinthians Chapters 12-15, with special emphasis on the 14th chapter shows clearly that the Pentecostal protestants style of worship is clearly outside of the Sacred Scriptures, and as such should not be joined. Their “theology” and reasoning for speaking in tongues is poor at best, and can’t give answer to the reason that for nearly 1900 years, the True Church had nothing to do with it. If you feel led of God to continue worshipping at the Pentecostal church, I would implore you to read the true Word of God within the Scriptures, and not to accept their blind reasonings. As the Bible tells us in 1 John 4, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." I will be praying for you and your wife, and hope that you may find a Catholic parish within reasonable traveling distance soon.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Feel free to ask me anything about Pentecostalism. I was part of the movement for close to 10 years and once held ministerial credentials in the Assemblies of God.

 

[po18guy]

I will be praying for you and your wife, and hope that you may find a Catholic parish within reasonable traveling distance soon.

I completely missed in the OP’s post that he is in Sweden. Marcus Grodi was a pastor in the Assemblies of God church. He converted to Catholicism and set up a website for those considering conversion. Even more interestingly, he has recently interviewed several of the clergy in the growing Swedish Catholic Church. His website is here.

Christ’s peace.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

I’m so glad I posted, the answers I have received have truly been a great help to me. Although I would say I am strong-willed in life, I think I am easily-led spiritually! My paganism was a result of anger I felt toward God for some pretty devastating personal losses. Now I am learning to trust Him again. I know I have come home, so to speak.

The answers in this thread and others (concise explanations of the reason for the Veneration of the Virgin Mary, for example) have been a positive reinforcement of faith for me, after a great deal of recent confusion. The statements my Pentacostal friends made - backed up with apparent scriptural evidence - regarding the Catholic Church, were disconcerting to a newcomer trying to find faith in Jesus again; and more particularly faith through the Doctrines of the True Church.

I have actually felt like a little kid, thinking ‘Well they know their stuff, they must be right…’

Your answers however, have readdressed the balance back in favour of my original faith. I shall continue down the road I feel is the right road.

Incidentally, although we live in northern Sweden now, I and my wife are English. I was raised a Roman Catholic, educated at an R.C. school and was a member of the Guild of St Stephen as an altarboy. My wife found her own faith in her mid-teens, and underwent baptism by submersion when she was fifteen. She is also searching for a renewal of her faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Big_Dummy]

I think, my opinion is the speaking in tongues thing you experienced was simply group dymatics at work. You may want to do some research in that area while attending your Catholic Church. If your Catholic Church is too far then meet with their priest/pastor about starting a home church in your are witht he mission of growing it into a full blown Catholic Church.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

I agree. I’ve read that a similar phenomenon was experienced by followers of pre-Christian mystery religions. An MRI study has shown that the brain changes apparently, and the frontal lobe activity decreases. This doesn’t indicate the presence of ‘Divine Speech’ to me, just that the brain is stimulated in a different way and another part fires up instead!!!

 

[rainman10]

I have actually felt like a little kid, thinking ‘Well they know their stuff, they must be right…’

Be very careful about what you believe from the Pentecostals. I am Catholic, but I attended a Pentecostal church for almost three years. The pastor was pretty much convinced that my wife and I were now Pentecostals and permanent members of his church. Eventually his “teachings” about Catholicism brought us back to the Catholic Church because we realized that all he was doing was being critical, but had nothing to back up his comments. When we told him we were leaving, he practically begged us not to leave and said he had proof that the Catholic Church was a false Church and he would send me the information. Well, his information was nothing more that anti-Catholic propaganda, some if it quite hateful. After researching his “information”, I found out it was, in fact, anti-Catholic propaganda that was started by a man named Lorraine Boettner. This is nothing more that scare tactics they uses to scare away unknowing Catholics, from the Catholic Church. After this, we knew for sure that Pentecostal IS NOT the way to go. We are now very happy and settled back in the Catholic Church and will NEVER again leave God’s true Church. I pray that you use caution when approached by any other “church” that is telling you the Catholic Church is not a true Church. They are lying to you, maybe not intentionally, but none the less they are lies.

 

[Roy5]

I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage. The Protestant side was evangelical, though not particularly Pentecostal. I put it that way because I recall that my Baptist grandmother had considerable admiration for the devotion and enthusiasm which seemed to characterize Pentecostalism. In her day, Pentecostalism seemed to have a special appeal to those on the ‘wrong side of the tracks’ - the poorer, the less educated. Today TV had enabled them to become a much broader movement, starting with Oral Roberts back 60 and more years ago. In one form or another it exists within many denominations, including Catholicism - though its impact within Catholicism has diminished greatly over the past 25 or so years, at least in this area.

One point has impressed me increasingly over the years, and where I find Catholicism and Pentecostalism rather similar - and where I have some misgivings. Both seem to believe rather easily in a wide spectrum of supernatural events. Pentecostal preachers often speak about how God told them to do this or say that. They can receive a 'word of knowledge' about a woman with a sore throat or a man with a painful ulcer - etc. They are quick to believe in healing miracles. Catholicism, to a degree at least, has a similar emphasis. All those various apparitions of Mary, saints levitating, miracles performed through the intercession of saints, and much more. I recall visiting St. Joseph's Oratory in Montreal and St. Ann de Beaupre above Quebec City, and all the crutches that would be hanging, indicative of miraculous healings. (If my memory is correct, they seem to have disappeared when I last visited those shrines.)  I also am troubled just a little by the recent increased emphasis on exorcism within Catholicism. Pentecostalists usually believe in demon possession, also. I'm not sure that I can. Sin abounds, of course, and some folks can seem to have 'demons' within, but....well, I guess I would look to psychology more than to religion to help understand them.

 Probably I am too concerned about embracing what I would call a reasonable faith, keeping away from superstitions and mythology that (I fear) have seriously invaded religion over the years. To illustrate, I am ready to accept that faith may play a major role in restoring people to health, but when I watch some Pentecostalists on TV I am turned off. I'm sure that most are sincer, but often there seems to be hucksterism if not outright deception. Some of them live very high, too, and preach that 'gospel of prosperity'. In the case of Catholicism, the idea - for example - that Padre Pio levitated, bilocated and was involved in performing (or causing to be performed) many other miracles....????  I have serious trouble with that ingredient within traditional Catholicism which appears to garner so much knee-jerk support here on CAF. Veneration relics is another concern I have, especially when those relics so often may lack authenticity. Someone has written that there are enough pieces of the original cross in church altars to build a large house???

  None of this undercuts my basic faith in God, of course, nor my efforts to be a loyal follower of Jesus Christ. I know that critics will charge that my faith is too little and my ego too big, and how dare I question Mother Church - etc. So be it. I've always been taught that honesty is the best policy.

  God bless all of his children - of every creed, color and country. May religion become more of a bridge and less of a barrier.

 

[po18guy]

The statements my Pentacostal friends made - backed up with apparent scriptural evidence - regarding the Catholic Church, were disconcerting

Here, we must remember that Peter wrote that there were those (almost 2,000 years ago!) who distorted scripture to their own destruction. Peter was prophetic when he specifically included this in his letters to the Church (2 Peter 3:16). We must listen to all scripture, and although Peter’s letters are few, they are amazingly concentrated in their theological content. It is good to ponder why Peter had any authority to teach such theology or doctrine. Christ gave it to him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through the hands-on ordination of his successor(s), Peter passed that authority on.

I have actually felt like a little kid, thinking ‘Well they know their stuff, they must be right…’

Consider: You, with your bible, have the exact same authority to start your own church, teaching whatever you happen to believe, as any other individual or group does. But, how does this serve the truth? It is ever so much more likely to serve only your ego and your personal preferences. This is the very nature of protestantism and all of its derivatives. Since all non-Catholic denominations disagree, how can they be serving the truth? Our Lord does not represent partial truth - but He is Truth in all of its perfection and completeness. Private interpretation of scripture is also written against by Peter (2 Peter 1:20). Why? Because the ego was leading even the first generation of Christians astray - by “charismatic” men.

Your answers however, have readdressed the balance back in favour of my original faith. I shall continue down the road I feel is the right road.

Despite one’s feelings, faith goes hand in hand with reason. You should also go with the Church which appeals to your thoughts, as feelings can lead astray - you have already experienced these feelings. Jesus, as He taught in the Temple and in the synagogues, used reason so that those who pondered what He said would be lead to the truth.

Incidentally, although we live in northern Sweden now, I and my wife are English. I was raised a Roman Catholic, educated at an R.C. school and was a member of the Guild of St Stephen as an altarboy. My wife found her own faith in her mid-teens, and underwent baptism by submersion when she was fifteen. She is also searching for a renewal of her faith in Jesus Christ.

I must point out that, even though you have difficulty with Church teaching, Jesus said that, in order to follow Him, one must “deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me” (Luke 9:23). Thus, one must do two very difficult things first, before following Christ. This crucial fact is often disregarded by “bible Christians”, among which the Pentecostals are numbered. And, just as Jesus’ teachings were hard to accept (John 6:60), and many left Him over them (John 6:66), so also are the teachings of the Church He founded hard to accept. Again, His Church is His Body on earth, with Jesus as its head. One simply cannot separate Head from Body and remain with a living organism. Jesus and His Church are one and the same. Becoming a true Christian is a matter of obedience to Christ, and the willingness to suffer the price that following Him entails.

I am praying for both you and your wife - that you will enjoy a return to faith - but with all of the advantages of maturity; and that you will experience unity in the faith with your wife, since you are not two, but one flesh.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[po18guy]

I find Catholicism and Pentecostalism rather similar - and where I have some misgivings. Both seem to believe rather easily in a wide spectrum of supernatural events. They are quick to believe in healing miracles. Catholicism, to a degree at least, has a similar emphasis.

These events are frequent in scripture. Why should they not occur now? Our culture, and the passage of time have dulled our spirits to the power and awe of the supernatural. For some anecdotal evidence, have a look at this short thread. But, apart from their charisms - which are 100% biblical, the Pentecostals represent a very new set of beliefs. Both you and I correctly are dubious of them.

All those various apparitions of Mary, saints levitating, miracles performed through the intercession of saints, and much more.

But, each and every one of these was first witnessed (in Fatima, by thousands, including the secular media), then soberly examined by the Church over the course of years, decades, or even centuries before being declared truth. It is not something concocted for a TV show.

and all the crutches that would be hanging, indicative of miraculous healings. I also am troubled just a little by the recent increased emphasis on exorcism within Catholicism.

The removal of crutches does not deny the truth of healing, but may indicate only a desire not avoid implying that all will be healed, since we cannot now God’s will, except by submission to it. If you want to know about a miraculous healing via the Sacrament of Anointing, just PM me. Cases of demon possession run through the New Testament. Jesus clearly gave power of demons to the Apostles and disciples (even Judas!). Does the bible indicate that such demonic activity will cease? It does not - rather it guarantees that it will continue. Know also that the Church investigates many allegations of possession and finds actual cases to be rare. However, to be the true Church, must it not have power over the demonic? Yes, since Jesus gave that power to His fledgling Church.

Pentecostalists…demon possession…I’m not sure that I can… I would look to psychology more than to religion to help understand them.

But, we must not temper biblical truth and the Gospel message with modern cultural influences, like the advent of psychology - as not all such cases are psychological in nature. Everything that existed and was experienced in Christ’s time still exists. The question is: do we acknowledge it or attempt to explain it away through human opinion?

Probably I am too concerned about embracing what I would call a reasonable faith, keeping away from superstitions and mythology that (I fear) have seriously invaded religion over the years.

A perfect attitude to have! And, the Pentecostal movement is a prime example of this. It is a recent development in Christianty, and although it has truth within it, it cannot have complete truth, as it has departed from the strcuture and nature of the Church which Christ founded. Some Pentecostal sects do not even baptize - this is not biblical truth, or what Jesus and the Apostles taught and practiced! Remember from Genesis that when the evil one wants to lead astray, he is the most subtle of creatures. He gives you truth, but only if it contains a smidgen of the lie. And it is that smidgen that slowly poisons one.

Padre Pio levitated, bilocated and was involved in performing (or causing to be performed) many other miracles…

Again, all of this has been witnessed, documented and investigated. Padre Pio is not the only one - only the most recent and famous.

Veneration (of) relics is another concern I have, especially when those relics so often may lack authenticity. Someone has written that there are enough pieces of the original cross in church altars to build a large house???

Relics have a long and established history, and the bible tells of Jesus’ cloak healing, of Peter’s shadow healing, and of kerchiefs and aprons that were touched to Paul healing the sick. Can you believe this? God uses objects whcih He created for His own purposes. Again, Catholics are not required, but allowed to believe in these relics.

None of this undercuts my basic faith in God, of course, nor my efforts to be a loyal follower of Jesus Christ. I know that critics will charge that my faith is too little and my ego too big, and how dare I question Mother Church - etc. So be it. I’ve always been taught that honesty is the best policy.

Honesty is truth and the Truth is a person - our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus’ teachings are hard to accept. His Church is inseparable from Him, and so Church teachings are also hard to accept. Our task is not to find teachings with which we agree, but to conform our hearts to the hard truth that is Jesus Christ. I remind of Luke 9:23: “If one would be My disciple, he must first (1) deny himself, (2) take up his cross, then (3) follow Me”. Note that following JEsus is the last thing we should do - not the first. It is an orderly process, created by our Lord, for our eternal salvation. It demands obedience to Christ through His Church. Easy? Not at all. Rewarding? Both temporally and eternally.

God bless all of his children - of every creed, color and country. May religion become more of a bridge and less of a barrier.

Thank you! Bridges are built through unity, and unity comes about through the denial of self.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

Brilliant!

I have spent so long trying to disprove and deconstruct Christianity as an Asatru heathen that even the simplest step is difficult. It is like learning to walk all over again, but this time I have the fear of falling! I have taken your advice and ordered ‘Catholicism for dummies’ - it sounds perfect for me!

It is vitally important for me to truly ‘understand’ Catholicism. As a 'cradle-Catholic, I never doubted anything. But conversely I didn’t understand anything!

It is difficult for me to respond when a fellow Christian attacks Catholicism by saying it is one of the ‘false teachers spoken of in the New Testament’. Almost implying that if the Church is of the wrong spirit, then by definition it must be of Satan. My friend spoke of me ‘‘believing with all my heart but being deceived by the Devil’’.

It is also difficult for me to defend the Catholic stance on many issues to somebody who is only interested in temporal law. Why can a wife who is physically assaulted every day not be allowed to divorce and remarry? That is a popular one! I mention lamely about certain Decrees of Annulment…but I haven’t a clue really. I am still getting to grips with believing again, not the finer points of Doctrine and Catechism!

It’s no harder for me than anybody else, but I am under attack! Most of it in jest, but some of it theological. I’m suddenly breaking free of a hedonistic lifestyle and friends don’t want me to! I’ve been told that if I ‘find God’ there will be a hunting accident in the forest!

Thankfully, people on here give me a bit of back-up!

 

[John1]

Hi ThomasDoubter,

I’m so glad that you came back to believing and having faith in Jesus Christ! Praise God!

I know the Bibile talks about speaking in tongues, and it says that we’re not supposed to forbid speaking in tongues, because the Holy Spirit gives that gift to some believers. I’ve never had it happen to me, but I do believe that it’s possible. Peter said that all believers were garaunteed to receive the Holy Spirit after they confessed their belief in Jesus and were baptized. Paul even runs into some folks that believed, but had not yet been baptized, yet had already received the Holy Spirit. Of course whenever someone does actually recieve the Holy Spirit, that makes them a part of the Body of Christ! That’s what Paul makes clear in 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14, etc… If you did speak in tongues via a gift from the Holy Spirit, that great! I bet it would be unsettling however.

Be careful of “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. True believers in Christ are recognized by the love that we have for one another. There are a lot of “wolves” out their that will try to talk you into rejecting or even hating the fellowship of the believers in Christ. If you haven’t done it already, you should read the part of Vatican II that deals with Christian unity, and find out what the church really teaches about it’s importance.

I’ll be praying for you!

 

[po18guy]

The removal of crutches does not deny the truth of healing, but may indicate only a desire -]not/-] to avoid implying that all will be healed, since we cannot know God’s will, except by submission to it. If you want to know about a miraculous healing via the Sacrament of Anointing, just PM me. Cases of demon possession run through the New Testament. Jesus clearly gave power -]of/-] over demons to the Apostles and disciples (even Judas!). Does the bible indicate that such demonic activity will cease? It does not - rather it guarantees that it will continue. Know also that the Church investigates many allegations of possession and finds actual cases to be rare. However, to be the true Church, must it not have power over the demonic? Yes, since Jesus gave that power to His fledgling Church.

A perfect attitude to have! And, the Pentecostal movement is a prime example of this. It is a recent development in Christianty, and although it has truth within it, it cannot have complete truth, as it has departed from the -]strcuture/-] structure and nature of the Church which Christ founded. Some Pentecostal sects do not even baptize - this is not biblical truth, or what Jesus and the Apostles taught and practiced! Remember from Genesis that when the evil one wants to lead astray, he is the most subtle of creatures. He gives you truth, but only if it contains a smidgen of the lie. And it is that smidgen that slowly poisons one.

So much for proof reading! My apologies for sloppy type setting (what’s that?)!

 

[po18guy]

I have spent so long trying to disprove and deconstruct Christianity as an Asatru heathen that even the simplest step is difficult. It is like learning to walk all over again, but this time I have the fear of falling! I have taken your advice and ordered ‘Catholicism for dummies’ - it sounds perfect for me!

I am glad to hear that you can get a copy. If there is trouble, let me know and I will post you one.

It is vitally important for me to truly ‘understand’ Catholicism. As a 'cradle-Catholic, I never doubted anything. But conversely I didn’t understand anything!

But, this was the ideal beginning: faith to believe. What happened was that the world slowly extracted your faith and replaced it with belief in - nothing, essentially. The road back is not so long as it may seem. But, pray for faith and understanding will be given you.

It is difficult for me to respond when a fellow Christian attacks Catholicism by saying it is one of the ‘false teachers spoken of in the New Testament’. Almost implying that if the Church is of the wrong spirit, then by definition it must be of Satan. My friend spoke of me ‘‘believing with all my heart but being deceived by the Devil’’.

Yet, sadly, your friend was following either his own private interpretation of scripture, or someone else’s. Also sad is that the leading of a spirit caused this - but certainly not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit always leads to unity. The demon always divides.

It is also difficult for me to defend the Catholic stance on many issues to somebody who is only interested in temporal law. Why can a wife who is physically assaulted every day not be allowed to divorce and remarry? That is a popular one! I mention lamely about certain Decrees of Annulment…but I haven’t a clue really. I am still getting to grips with believing again, not the finer points of Doctrine and Catechism!

Notice that they always cite extreme, and rare examples? Oftentimes hypothetical examples? The vast majority of divorces involve no assault, but a simple desire for someone else - a sign of our culture. Again, neither does the Church demand that they remain physically together. Divorce states that one does not trust God to heal the situation, and that it is not worth working and praying for. Where is the trust in God? Where is their trust in scripture? “What God has joined together, let not man put asunder”.

It’s no harder for me than anybody else, but I am under attack! Most of it in jest, but some of it theological. I’m suddenly breaking free of a hedonistic lifestyle and friends don’t want me to! I’ve been told that if I ‘find God’ there will be a hunting accident in the forest!

Many who do not believe in God have also had accidents. So what of that? Nonsense, frankly.

Thankfully, people on here give me a bit of back-up!

We are family, and reunions - even for the first time - are a truly happy occasion. Tell your friends, if you do not have an answer, that you will find one and get back with them. The Catholic Church has an answer for every question of faith or morals. Does theirs?

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

I agree - the questions I have regarding the Catholic Church are not so much questions, as people’s prejudices wrapped up in question form! And yes, they invariably cite so extreme a hypothesis that it would need a Catholic scholar to answer them.

Still, if they can gain satisfaction from stumping somebody they know is a complete initiate, okay…whatever floats their boat. However I look forward to the day I can defend my Church effectively!

The ‘accident in the forest’ statement was a friend of mine who is a pagan. It is his way of joking that it will be him pulling the trigger when next we are out, if I turn to Christianity!

One oft-asked, trivial question that bugs me, and for which I have no answer other than ‘‘Marriage is a solemn and binding contract before God - till death us do part’’, is when I am asked ‘‘what if two people simply don’t love each other any more? Are you saying they must separate and never take another person again?’’

Here is the most recent extreme hypothesis/question thrown at me:

*This from the TV series ‘The Sopranos’. ''A woman is married to a mobster and she is a devout Catholic. She lives off money that she knows comes from crime. She knows her husband is unfaithful to her. She does nor love her husband anymore. Her priest has said that she must not spend his money. She must shun the materialistic life she had built for herself. She should earn her own money, so she did not spend his ill-gotten gains. But she MUST stay with him.

But the reality is, his money keeps her in the house she is in, and feeds and clothes her children. Provides them with a priviliged education. She cannot avoid benefitting from the money gotten by sin.

Is it not a bigger sin to stay with such a man - a murderer, adulterer and thief - than to divorce him? Are you telling me that it is a lesser sin to live off money made by murder, prostitution and extortion, than it is to divorce?’’*

The triumphant look when I said I couldn’t answer that one without help was something to behold! It was as if they had pulled down my whole fledgling belief in the Church with one question!!!