Pentecost Sunday

[anon98328916]

The birth of the church!

When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled,
they were all in one place together.
And suddenly there came from the sky
a noise like a strong driving wind,
and it filled the entire house in which they were.
Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire,
which parted and came to rest on each one of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak in different tongues,
as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.

Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven
staying in Jerusalem.
At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd,
but they were confused
because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
They were astounded, and in amazement they asked,
“Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans?
Then how does each of us hear them in his native language?
We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites,
inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia,
Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia,
Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene,
as well as travelers from Rome,
both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs,
yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues
of the mighty acts of God.”

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I was wondering what “fulfilled” means … And did they all have the Holy Eucharist before receiving the tongues of fire?

 

[Gorgias]

I was wondering what “fulfilled” means

It’s an archaic expression. It means “when the time had come”.

… And did they all have the Holy Eucharist before receiving the tongues of fire?

Immediately before, you mean? The text doesn’t say.

 

[jcrichton]

I was wondering what “fulfilled” means … And did they all have the Holy Eucharist before receiving the tongues of fire?

Hi, Giggly!
Though the above passage does not explicitly says so, it could be surmised that they did since it would have been the practice of the Apostles (the Twelve):

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, (Acts 2:42, 46)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gorgias]

Hi, Giggly!
Though the above passage does not explicitly says so, it could be surmised that they did since it would have been the practice of the Apostles (the Twelve):

That doesn’t imply that they had already broken bread that day, does it? After all, it was just 9am…

 

[BrunoMaria]

Here came up the question:

did they all have the Holy Eucharist before receiving the tongues of fire?<

I would very much doubt it, not only because it was in the early morning when it happened. „The third hour“ (Acts 2,15= 9 o’clock) But why would it be at all important if they had or not? They all including Holy Mary who was selected to give human life to Jesus Christ so we have God the Son among us in flesh. She lived together with Christ witnessing all from Annunciation through Arch-Angel Gabriel to Christ’s Ascension, and The Twelve where in any case worthy enough to fulfill God’s plan of salvation, which was prophesied by Joel 3,1-2. When God wants to do whatsoever - then God’s will is never hindered by any circumstance nor question as to „are the defined premises and preconditions fulfilled“. In the case of St. Paul’s appointment, Paul, the up to this moment Saul, never fulfilled any Christian precondition.
Now with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they left all fear behind. They, most of them generally uneducated fishermen, could speak in all languages of their audience - who came from far away to celebrate the Jewish feast of “Schawuot”, 50 days after the feast of Pessach= Passover.

Yes, we believers do have certain, essential rules and regulations. But it’s not those who make us God’s own people! Not at all! Remember the Pharisees. They fulfilled all „technical“ things to make them true believer. But see how God rebuked them in e.g. Mt 23,33: You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

(Btw: Here in Germany we got 2 Pentecost-Holidays - Sunday and Monday)

Yours
Bruno

 

[jcrichton]

That doesn’t imply that they had already broken bread that day, does it? After all, it was just 9am…

Hi, Gorgias!
That’s why I stated that we could surmise… meaning that by deductive reasoning: a) the Apostles/disciples come together, b) they prayed, c) they broke bread, d)they did that every day.

I do not recall that reading that there’s a time set for the *breaking of the bread *as it is not a substitution for a meal but rather a celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

Again, a deductive exercise does not demonstrate proof!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Here came up the question:

did they all have the Holy Eucharist before receiving the tongues of fire?<

Hi, Bruno!
I concur with you; it doesn’t really matter if they all had taken part of the breaking of the bread or if it happened at all.

However, it can be thought that it did happen because we are talking about days after the resurrection and it had been one of the practices of the gatherings. Contrary to today’s gathering at Mass, the disciples did not gathered for social intercourse (though this could well develop after the agreed upon period of Worship). In the shadows of Rome and the Jews, they met, in spite of their fear, for Worship. Since this was a special occasion (a date with Christ, if you will), why would they not *break bread *and pray?

Again, not claiming Scriptural text as the basis for my suppositions. :yup::nope::yup::nope:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BrunoMaria]

Contrary to today’s gathering at Mass, the disciples did not gathered for social intercourse

Well, let’s hope no-one who attends Holy Mass, takes part (just) for social intercourse. That would be terrible. Just imagine the guests of the King in Mt 22,11 when He comes in to see His guests, but they disregard the King and go on with their social blarney.

…In the shadows of Rome and the Jews, they met, in spite of their fear, for Worship. Since this was a special occasion (a date with Christ, if you will), why would they not *break bread *

and pray?

Might even be, though let’s doubt it. Not only because it was early morning, but far more so, as they where full of fear and trembling, for the public opinion sought to destroy these „blasphemers“ who hung on to this Jesus, who was recently sentenced to death for blasphemy, ’cos He claimed to be God in God.

Much more than for a worship, the new Twelve in this fearful time waited together with Holy Mary and the other Mary and other close friends (Acts 1,12) for Jesus’ prediction in Acts 1,4-8: „…wait in Jerusalem for what My Father promised,… for you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

It was a terribly exciting time full of despair, but now finally with the visible (like tongues of fire in a storm-like surge-up) arrival of the Holy Spirit upon them, they received the divine strength to from now on instead of fearful hiding, powerful witnessing and preaching the one and only living God. The hour of birth of our Church.

Yours
Bruno

 

[jcrichton]

Well, let’s hope no-one who attends Holy Mass, takes part (just) for social intercourse. That would be terrible. Just imagine the guests of the King in Mt 22,11 when He comes in to see His guests, but they disregard the King and go on with their social blarney.

Hi, Bruno!
I don’t know about you but I see this very often in various parishes… people come in with the expectation of “done that, God owes me,” as they at times even compete against the Priest’s homily–it seems as though they are at a bazaar or some social club… and the second the final blessing is given… well, rush hour ain’t seen nothing till those “Catholics” run for the world’s gold cups! :crying::crying::crying:
I concur with you… Jesus made it quite clear that just showing up without the proper attire is completely useless–those who insist on it will be promptly exiled! :knight2::knight2::knight2:

Might even be, though let’s doubt it. Not only because it was early morning, but far more so, as they where full of fear and trembling, for the public opinion sought to destroy these „blasphemers“ who hung on to this Jesus, who was recently sentenced to death for blasphemy, ’cos He claimed to be God in God.

Much more than for a worship, the new Twelve in this fearful time waited together with Holy Mary and the other Mary and other close friends (Acts 1,12) for Jesus’ prediction in Acts 1,4-8: „…wait in Jerusalem for what My Father promised,… for you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

I did not mean to imply that Pentecost was a gather for Worship only; rather, that in spite of the fear the reign over them those of the Way gathered together daily in Worship and that part of that gathering for Worship was the breaking of the bread. Hence, it would follow that Pentecost, being such a solemn gathering sense they were to meet with Jesus, would have special meaning and thus the breaking of the bread for that occasion would be almost innate.

It was a terribly exciting time full of despair, but now finally with the visible (like tongues of fire in a storm-like surge-up) arrival of the Holy Spirit upon them, they received the divine strength to from now on instead of fearful hiding, powerful witnessing and preaching the one and only living God. The hour of birth of our Church.

Yours
Bruno

Indeed, the influx of the Holy Spirit made them more than valiant: undaunted!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tp3192000]

The birth of the church!

And suddenly there came from the sky
a noise like a strong driving wind,
and it filled the entire house in which they were.

At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd…
”

So many gathered when they heard the sound and witnessed the Holy Spirit descend on the house where the Apostles and Mary were. Later these witnesses were the first Catholic converts. This is an amazing story. And the recipients of the Holy Spirit are the Apostles who were nobodies. Fishermen and tax collectors. While a short distance away the holy Jews of Qumran who would not allow a sick or slow or less than perfect person into their community, awaited the appearance of the Holy Spirit as foretold by the Teacher of Righteousness. But Jesus breathed on the Apostles and made them more worthy with his breath than the holy Qumrans with their holy deeds.

 

[jcrichton]

So many gathered when they heard the sound and witnessed the Holy Spirit descend on the house where the Apostles and Mary were. Later these witnesses were the first Catholic converts. This is an amazing story. And the recipients of the Holy Spirit are the Apostles who were nobodies. Fishermen and tax collectors. While a short distance away the holy Jews of Qumran who would not allow a sick or slow or less than perfect person into their community, awaited the appearance of the Holy Spirit as foretold by the Teacher of Righteousness. But Jesus breathed on the Apostles and made them more worthy with his breath than the holy Qumrans with their holy deeds.

Hi!
…we must take care to note that the rules for the infirm came with the prejudice of ignorance–a transmittable decease could wipeout a whole town/village/area in no time at all when there’s no knowledge of the pathogen and its cure; separating the infirm into a separate quarter was deem as necessary isolation.

Still, experience proves time and again that imperfect people that we are we can fall into abuse of even the most sound practices (just check out “woman’s health” (abortion gone rampant) and “choice” (immorality, depravity, confusion and warped social psyche)…

Yet, as you’ve pointed out, the Holy Spirit has been sent to the world so that, in spite of man’s failure at being God’s “good” stewards, love can still be brought forth into the world in the form of science, technology, medicine, food, services, and financial, emotional, and spiritual support.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

What a lively can of worms I opened

After reading the thoughtful comments I realize my question parallels, “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” Would God have the apostles unite with Jesus through the bread to welcome the Holy Spirit or would God desire the Holy Spirit to unify the people to teach them how to break the bread? Just my curiosity … “Curiosity killed the cat — but satisfaction brought it back”

I guess I’m also curious about how long the gifts and talents (understanding) lasted?

 

[jcrichton]

What a lively can of worms I opened

After reading the thoughtful comments I realize my question parallels, “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” Would God have the apostles unite with Jesus through the bread to welcome the Holy Spirit or would God desire the Holy Spirit to unify the people to teach them how to break the bread? Just my curiosity … “Curiosity killed the cat — but satisfaction brought it back”

I guess I’m also curious about how long the gifts and talents (understanding) lasted?

Hi, Giggly!

Not the chicken. Not the egg.

The Word came first!:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (St. John 1:1)

The practice of the* breaking of the bread *did not originate with Pentecost since Jesus had already established it prior to His Crucifixion.

…if you are referring to the supernatural (speaking in tongues, miracles, prophecy, dreams, resurrection… St. Mark 16:16-18; Acts 2:16-18), these were a sign to demonstrate that the Holy Spirit had indeed arrived; as the Holy Spirit began to work in the Church these signs would diminish as they would no longer be needed:

4 God also bearing them witness by signs, and wonders, and divers miracles, and distributions of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will. (Hebrews 2:4)

Now, if you are speaking of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, those signs that we ourselves can demonstrate within our temporal existence (wisdom, knowledge, healing… 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14), these will continue till the Parousia since it is through these that the Holy Spirit moves our Faith.

But we have to be careful of the signs since what they may mean to us is not necessarily what they mean to God:

18 I thank my God I speak with all your tongues. 19 But in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct others also; than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect. 21 In the law it is written: In other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and neither so will they hear me, saith the Lord. (1 Corinthians 14:18-21)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tp3192000]

Hi!
…we must take care to note that the rules for the infirm came with the prejudice of ignorance–a transmittable decease could wipeout a whole town/village/area in no time at all when there’s no knowledge of the pathogen and its cure; separating the infirm into a separate quarter was deem as necessary isolation.

Angel

Hi!
Everything you said is correct. Still, the community at Qumran went beyond separating themselves from infectious human beings to where they separated themselves from anyone who could be considered inferior. They were the ones who could stand up to God and say look at us, we follow your commandments and we do your will, not like the others who walk in darkness. They lived holy lives, careful not to infect themselves with the company of sinful persons, especially women.
They loved God and strove to be the community who were faithful to His commandments. Yet, the things that they believed in so strongly were opposite to what Jesus preached and practiced.
Like Peter, who was so full of himself that he claimed to our Lord he would never deny him, yet denied him three times before the cock crowed, the Qumrans were so full of themselves that they hated those that did not agree wit them and thought of themselves as the chosen. Both Peter and the Qumrans were made examples of when in fact they failed on their own and relied on their own strengths instead of relying on God to help them. If they instead had relied on God for their strength, perhaps they may not have failed.
The Holy Spirit descending on the disciples was not an ordinary event. It was extraordinary and gave the disciples many devine graces. They spoke and everyone who listened heard them in their own language and dialect. They converted many with their speeches. Later they were said to heal the sick and drive away demons.
The first letter of Peter is so well written that it is difficult to remember that he is a fisherman and not a scholar.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!
Everything you said is correct. Still, the community at Qumran went beyond separating themselves from infectious human beings to where they separated themselves from anyone who could be considered inferior. They were the ones who could stand up to God and say look at us, we follow your commandments and we do your will, not like the others who walk in darkness. They lived holy lives, careful not to infect themselves with the company of sinful persons, especially women.
They loved God and strove to be the community who were faithful to His commandments. Yet, the things that they believed in so strongly were opposite to what Jesus preached and practiced.
Like Peter, who was so full of himself that he claimed to our Lord he would never deny him, yet denied him three times before the cock crowed, the Qumrans were so full of themselves that they hated those that did not agree wit them and thought of themselves as the chosen. Both Peter and the Qumrans were made examples of when in fact they failed on their own and relied on their own strengths instead of relying on God to help them. If they instead had relied on God for their strength, perhaps they may not have failed.
The Holy Spirit descending on the disciples was not an ordinary event. It was extraordinary and gave the disciples many devine graces. They spoke and everyone who listened heard them in their own language and dialect. They converted many with their speeches. Later they were said to heal the sick and drive away demons.
The first letter of Peter is so well written that it is difficult to remember that he is a fisherman and not a scholar.

Hi!
…from your expressions I believe that their is zealousness in your heart for God and for His people; however, we must take care not to judge; we really do not understand what was in the mind of those that came before us. The best historians and archeologist (all presumably unbiased scholars) cannot come to unity in most case studies–the best they can do is make “educated guesses,” as both what is known (discovered) and unknown bring them to divergence.

Personally, where you see St. Peter as full of himself, I see a man caught in the wonder of fellowship–on his first experience with Jesus, He introduces Himself by changing Simon’s name (St. John 1:35-42). It is prophesied that God will retain a Remnant in spite of Israel’s adulterous rejection of His Authority. Those that we meet in Scriptures who are part of that Remnant are caught up in that intensity of Faith and Worship. Peter alone from amongst all of Jesus’ disciples is that one follower that is constantly jumping the gun:

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” (St. Matthew 16:13-16)

…and yes, there are times when this impetuousness does provide its own rewards:

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. (St. Matthew 16:17-20)

But can we truly judge that this is not the workings of the Holy Spirit? …as a testament to St. Peter’s genuine fellowship, Scriptures do not note any place where he asserted himself by claiming something like: “I’ve been given the Keys, so there!”

…as for the Qumran, this has been a long-practiced exercise amongst Believers (prior to and after Christ’s founding of the Church). Though there are not many stated cases in Scriptures, we know from a few that the Holy Spirit would separate from their communities those that were elected by God to serve Him in a distinct (I dare say higher) level:

21 When her husband Elkanah went up with all his family to offer the annual sacrifice to the Lord and to fulfill his vow, 22 Hannah did not go. She said to her husband, “After the boy is weaned, I will take him and present him before the Lord, and he will live there always.”

28 So now I give him to the Lord. For his whole life he will be given over to the Lord.” And he worshiped the Lord there. (1 Samuel 1:21, 28)

13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.(St. Luke 1:13-15, 80)

God’s Calling is never wrong; how we respond and develop in the Calling is what can go wrong. Still, we can only answer to God for our own actions and thoughts:

4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. (Romans 14:4)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tp3192000]

… we must take care not to judge; we really do not understand what was in the mind of those that came before us. The best historians and archeologist (all presumably unbiased scholars) cannot come to unity in most case studies–the best they can do is make “educated guesses,” as both what is known (discovered) and unknown bring them to divergence.
Angel

Pick a scholar that seems reasonable rather than include the opinions of those on the fringe. One such as James Charlesworth works for me, as well as many others. The Qumran community who were most likely Essenes left behind a wealth of writings and commentaries. There is a vast amount of writings of, by and about their community that allows us to gain insight that were discovered only recently (some within my lifetime, some only a decade before.) These writings are included in what are called the Dead Sea Scrolls. They have allowed us to see what these people believed in and to “understand what was in the mind of those that came before us.”

 

[tp3192000]

Personally, where you see St. Peter as full of himself, I see a man caught in the wonder of fellowship–on his first experience with Jesus, He introduces Himself by changing Simon’s name (St. John 1:35-42). It is prophesied that God will retain a Remnant in spite of Israel’s adulterous rejection of His Authority. Those that we meet in Scriptures who are part of that Remnant are caught up in that intensity of Faith and Worship. Peter alone from amongst all of Jesus’ disciples is that one follower that is constantly jumping the gun:

I have great reverence for St. Peter, our first pope. I also consider him a man who like the other Apostles made errors during his life. One error is listed in Mk. 14:29-31. If he is not thinking highly of himself here, I do not know what else. And he did fail with these vows after all.

The pride that Peter had in himself is similar to the pride that the Qumran community had in themselves. They should have stopped, got down on their knees and prayed to God for their unworthiness, yet they did not. And Peter did not have the personal strength to avoid denying Jesus three times and the Essene sectarians did not receive the Holy Spirit, but disappeared from the face of the Earth.

 

[jcrichton]

Pick a scholar that seems reasonable rather than include the opinions of those on the fringe. One such as James Charlesworth works for me, as well as many others. The Qumran community who were most likely Essenes left behind a wealth of writings and commentaries. There is a vast amount of writings of, by and about their community that allows us to gain insight that were discovered only recently (some within my lifetime, some only a decade before.) These writings are included in what are called the Dead Sea Scrolls. They have allowed us to see what these people believed in and to “understand what was in the mind of those that came before us.”

Hi!
Please, do not misunderstand me. I have no access to scholars nor do I do avid research… my info comes from general sources, and experience (NG and other “enlightened” networks)… here’s my take on the Qumran:

De Vaux’s conclusion was that the inhabitants of the site were a sect of highly ritualistic Jews called the Essenes, a conclusion that has come to be known as the “Qumran–Essene hypothesis”.[21] This hypothesis suggests that the original residents of the settlement were the Essenes, and that they established the site in the desert for religious purposes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran

“Religious” seems to be the communality amongst the sites I visited when I searched the Qumran community–understanding this, we have to conclude that they would have a separatist mentality. Did they take it too far? I cannot say since I have not read any of the materials that were discovered that would demonstrate that they were elitist and not just fervent believers.

Perhaps if you were to post a glimmer of the writings that points to their haughtiness I could better understand your position.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have great reverence for St. Peter, our first pope. I also consider him a man who like the other Apostles made errors during his life. One error is listed in Mk. 14:29-31. If he is not thinking highly of himself here, I do not know what else. And he did fail with these vows after all.

The pride that Peter had in himself is similar to the pride that the Qumran community had in themselves. They should have stopped, got down on their knees and prayed to God for their unworthiness, yet they did not. And Peter did not have the personal strength to avoid denying Jesus three times and the Essene sectarians did not receive the Holy Spirit, but disappeared from the face of the Earth.

Hi!
I concur with you, the Apostles were all men with the same fallacies and dispositions as the rest of us. However, not being in the moment, historical sources can only give us a glimpse of what took place–never the exact moment (mind and spirit). This is one reason why it is easy for hindsight to come to both conclusive and inconclusive elements… and for the historians (and others) to totally misread the event:

29 But Peter saith to him: Although all shall be scandalized in thee, yet not I. 30 And Jesus saith to him: Amen I say to thee, to day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice. 31 But he spoke the more vehemently: Although I should die together with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner also said they all. (St. Mark 14:29-31)

While it may seem that Peter is “full of himself” in the above example, we must understand what is actually taking place. Jesus just told them that people are coming for Him and that the Twelve will (out of pure fear and self-preservation) abandon Him. Though John is called “the disciple loved by the Lord,” Peter has been “the go to man” for Jesus; it is from this relationship that Simon speaks–even if all the others were to fail Christ, he believes that he will not! This is not determined by Peter debasing the others but from his relationship with Jesus–not too dissimilar to military services’ bonding.

However, Peter’s experience is not military so his valor is tested beyond his means (he will fight both the Divine Course and the temporal pressures). In the final episode of his saga, Peter fails–he has to!

Does that means that he was just prideful in his assertions? No, what it means is that at that particular time, since he had not taken into consideration the prophecy against the Shepherd and because he was free of the fear of persecution, his confidence was high and he thought (as the others would promptly echo) that he would never abandon Jesus, no matter what!

Maran atha!

Angel