Pentecost Sunday

[tp3192000]

Does that means that he was just prideful in his assertions? No, what it means is that at that particular time, since he had not taken into consideration the prophecy against the Shepherd and because he was free of the fear of persecution, his confidence was high and he thought (as the others would promptly echo) that he would never abandon Jesus, no matter what!

Peter had high expectations of himself as you just stated. As strong and great as Peter was, without God’s grace, he would ultimately not be strong enough. And he proved this. This is recorded in our gospels so that we will learn from Peter’s error. It is a very powerful message that without God’s grace we will ultimately fail. On our own, we just are not strong enough.
Peter was not worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on him.

 

[tp3192000]

Hi!
I concur with you, the Apostles were all men with the same fallacies and dispositions as the rest of us. However, not being in the moment, historical sources can only give us a glimpse of what took place–never the exact moment (mind and spirit). This is one reason why it is easy for hindsight to come to both conclusive and inconclusive elements… and for the historians (and others) to totally misread the event:

While it may seem that Peter is “full of himself” in the above example, we must understand what is actually taking place. Jesus just told them that people are coming for Him and that the Twelve will (out of pure fear and self-preservation) abandon Him. Though John is called “the disciple loved by the Lord,” Peter has been “the go to man” for Jesus; it is from this relationship that Simon speaks–even if all the others were to fail Christ, he believes that he will not! This is not determined by Peter debasing the others but from his relationship with Jesus–not too dissimilar to military services’ bonding.

However, Peter’s experience is not military so his valor is tested beyond his means (he will fight both the Divine Course and the temporal pressures). In the final episode of his saga, Peter fails–he has to!

Does that means that he was just prideful in his assertions? No, what it means is that at that particular time, since he had not taken into consideration the prophecy against the Shepherd and because he was free of the fear of persecution, his confidence was high and he thought (as the others would promptly echo) that he would never abandon Jesus, no matter what!

Maran atha!

Angel

“Religious” seems to be the communality amongst the sites I visited when I searched the Qumran community–understanding this, we have to conclude that they would have a separatist mentality. Did they take it too far? I cannot say since I have not read any of the materials that were discovered that would demonstrate that they were elitist and not just fervent believers.

Perhaps if you were to post a glimmer of the writings that points to their haughtiness I could better understand your position.

"Similarly, it is to be the rule throughout the Epoch of Wickedness that anyone who repents his corrupt conduct is to be enrolled, on the day when he speaks of it to the general overseer, with an oath binding him to the Covenant which Moses made with Israel-that is, with a covenanted obligation that [in all] the varied activities of his life he will return to the Law of Moses with all his heart and soul. No one, however, is to acquaint him with the regulations of the community prior to his actually standing in the presence of the overseer, lest, when the latter examines him, he turn out to be a dolt. But once the overseer has sworn him by oath to return to the Law of Moses with all his heart and soul, he is to be liable to punishment for any breach of faith. If he fail to understand anything in the Law which is patently revealed to the normal mind, the overseer is to ·…] and then issue an order concerning him that he be kept in confinement for a full year on the grounds of its having been ascertained that he is feeble-minded and deranged.

In the case of one who is a chronic imbecile or is in-sane, the judge is to come and ]. Such a man is not to appear in public. . . "

Taken from the Damascus Document.

 

[jcrichton]

Peter had high expectations of himself as you just stated. As strong and great as Peter was, without God’s grace, he would ultimately not be strong enough. And he proved this. This is recorded in our gospels so that we will learn from Peter’s error. It is a very powerful message that without God’s grace we will ultimately fail. On our own, we just are not strong enough.
Peter was not worthy of receiving the Holy Spirit until Jesus breathed on him.

Hi!
I cannot but agree with you, that none of us are worthy to receive the Holy Spirit and that without God we can do nothing (St. John 15:1-10). Hence, we cannot judge the mind of others. Was Peter fast at the trigger? Yes! Scriptures attest to this as his very nature… however, that should not be counted as pride or an overly high self-esteem:

4 Now when he had ceased to speak, he said to Simon: Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. 5 And Simon answering said to him: ***Master, we have labored all the night, and have taken nothing: but at thy word I will let down the net. *** 6 And when they had done this, they enclosed a very great multitude of fishes, and their net broke. 7 And they beckoned to their partners that were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they were almost sinking. 8 Which when Simon Peter saw, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying: Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord. 9 For he was wholly astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken. 10 And so were also James and John the sons of Zebedee, who were Simon’s partners. And Jesus saith to Simon: Fear not: from henceforth thou shalt catch men. 11 And having brought their ships to land, leaving all things, they followed him. (St. Luke 5:4-11)

Here, Peter acknowledges Jesus’ Lordship and Command, at Jesus’ Word, and then prostrates himself at Jesus’ feet (implicit), confesses himself a sinner and asks Jesus to remove Himself from his impurities. How prideful is that?

Have you not considered the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

From your statement I surmise that you might believe that the Holy Spirit cannot touch a sinful man–that is, Reveal to man, in his unworthiness, the Truth of God… if this is what you hold, please let me demonstrate, through Christ’s Word, that that judgment is flawed:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me. (St. John 6:44-45)

Clearly, it is the Holy Spirit Who moves man to God–even sinners!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

"Similarly, it is to be the rule throughout the Epoch of Wickedness that anyone who repents his corrupt conduct is to be enrolled, on the day when he speaks of it to the general overseer, with an oath binding him to the Covenant which Moses made with Israel-that is, with a covenanted obligation that [in all] the varied activities of his life he will return to the Law of Moses with all his heart and soul. No one, however, is to acquaint him with the regulations of the community prior to his actually standing in the presence of the overseer, lest, when the latter examines him, he turn out to be a dolt. But once the overseer has sworn him by oath to return to the Law of Moses with all his heart and soul, he is to be liable to punishment for any breach of faith. If he fail to understand anything in the Law which is patently revealed to the normal mind, the overseer is to ·…] and then issue an order concerning him that he be kept in confinement for a full year on the grounds of its having been ascertained that he is feeble-minded and deranged.

In the case of one who is a chronic imbecile or is in-sane, the judge is to come and ]. Such a man is not to appear in public. . . "

Taken from the Damascus Document.

Hi!
…yeah, this is clearly a demonstration of heavy handed controlling tenets… they do seem to go far… but, do you know how long it takes a Seminarian to Receive the Orders of Priesthood? (I personally do not know–I think is something like 6 years of post higher ed, with heavy theology and philosophy on top of Church History and Doctrine; then there’s the psychological test/s and finally the declaration of Faith…)

Now, the last statement seems to be totally self-serving–reminiscent of Elizabethan treatment of the mentally/physically disabled blue blood (from movies/programs); there’s no redeeming from such treatment; but, still, we do not have evidence that every statute was actually practiced (put into effect)… from my perspective, it is doubtful that many who were not highly religious and knowledgeable would seek to join a group with such high expectations and such rigorous acclamations of Faith.

Yet, as Martin Luther and others, I can see how they could have had good intentions but their humanity led them astray, replacing the Holy Spirit’s Calling to separate themselves from ungodliness with their own personal convictions and prejudice.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tp3192000]

Hi!
I cannot but agree with you, that none of us are worthy to receive the Holy Spirit and that without God we can do nothing (St. John 15:1-10). Hence, we cannot judge the mind of others.

From your statement I surmise that you might believe that the Holy Spirit cannot touch a sinful man

We all judge the minds of others in how we interpret what we hear them say or read what they write. You have done so with me. I do not know how you surmise what you do from what I have stated, but never-the-less you do, from the words I have written. As everyone does. I have done so with what Peter has said, but you criticize this thinking, saying I should not judge. Yet you presume to know what it is I may believe and judge me on that according to the words I have written, as I believe you should do.
I do think that the Holy Spirit may do anything He pleases and come to those of His own choosing. God bless you.

 

[jcrichton]

We all judge the minds of others in how we interpret what we hear them say or read what they write. You have done so with me. I do not know how you surmise what you do from what I have stated, but never-the-less you do, from the words I have written. As everyone does. I have done so with what Peter has said, but you criticize this thinking, saying I should not judge. Yet you presume to know what it is I may believe and judge me on that according to the words I have written, as I believe you should do.
I do think that the Holy Spirit may do anything He pleases and come to those of His own choosing. God bless you.

Hi!
…actually no, I do not presume to know what you believe–my judgment was made from what I perceived as a charged criticism of St. Peter. I proceeded to check on-line for Qumran to ascertain the point you were stressing. From general findings I noted that (only searched through two sites) the community was purported to be of highly religious/priestly people. These findings suggested to me that the Qumran community might well be a separatist group (such have existed in the Church from her roots).

My response is not charged; I simply believe that too many times people do make generalizations based on conclusions that scholars have presented from* their personal views*… I do not presume to possess greater knowledge than anyone else… I do believe that we must not judge (unless the evidence fully presents itself–ie: Judas held the “purse” and kept the “books,” he could easily be thought of as a thief; yet, till it is revealed, at least in one occasion, that he intended to “raid” the “purse” there wasn’t sufficient information to have jumped to that conclusion).

I apologize if I have made you feel uncomfortable.

As for Peter, there isn’t enough information to conclude that he held himself at high esteem and was boastful about himself/abilities/relationship with the Lord… we can tell that (at least once) he feared for his life and that he used profanities; still, this example does not make him a coward nor habitually profane.

Thank you for the Blessing; may God bless you too, friend.

Maran atha!

Angel